Radiation Oncology to Palliative Care

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evilbooyaa

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I believe you are correct but recall that I'm "old" . . . 12-15 years out of radiation oncology residency means literally 20ish years since graduating medical school and intern year. Of course the palliative care MD isn't directly managing all aspects of medical care but I don't see how I can provide even palliative care with a 20 year old understanding of management of even common medical conditions. I'd imagine that during the one year palliative care fellowship people like me would be simultaneously learning advanced palliative care stuff like the pain pumps you mentioned but also brushing up on/relearning non Radiation Oncology stuff (which is like 99.5% of medicine).

I guess a more recent graduate could just straight up switch to palliative care and start practicing? It seems like that's perfectly "legal and acceptable" but not sure if it's practical.

It would be great if somebody with first hand experience in either of the two scenarios (obviously doesn't have to be radiation oncology but any specialty) could comment.

Can the moderator of this forum please alert the moderator of the palliative care forum that we are having this discussion (maybe they personally know people who have done what we are brainstorming here) or otherwise invite them to comment?

This thread is at the request of @JumpingShip to hear from a few palliative care docs about the health/viability of their field.

I'm not aware of very many docs trained in Palliative Care on SDN, but will tag a few I am aware of:
@Frazier @dchristismi @WilcoWorld

Also going to tag a few that have posted responses in the Hospice and Palliative Care forum (even if they are not all attendings) in the past year. Any non-attending in HPM please identify your level of training if you don't mind, for purposes of transparency.

@Entadus @throway134

Any other active HPM folks who can contribute to this potential pathway for Radiation Oncologists looking for a transition out from RO (similar to a lot of the EM docs who went HPM above), we'd love to hear your inputs!

This thread will be focused on HPM discussion - take all the unrelated crap to a different thread or suffer deletions/warnings.
 
I did an HPM fellowship 10 years after residency. It was a great decision for me.

Now, I was practicing EM for that decade, so I was more adjacent to most areas of medicine than a RadOnc doc would be, but I knew very little about inpatient medicine/cancer prognostication/geriatrics/chemo regimens...I had quite a bit to learn in that year. But in the end, it was certainly manageable and I would make the same decision again. Perhaps it helps that I really like learning?

Fell free to PM me if you have more specific questions.
 
Thank you for the tag.
I completed my fellowship in HPM as a PGY4 after EM residency. I practice full-time at a large academic center in the palliative dept which is housed in the cancer institute. I'm faculty with the HPM fellowship at said institution, to OP's point, one of our graduating fellows had 20 years of experience as an attending prior to starting their HPM fellowship. No one is going to treat you as some green know-nothing. You will be respected for your experience and for being part of the team. Your fellowship attendings will teach you and sure enough, you will teach them. It is symbiotic since so many of us hail from different training vantage points. The concern that many have of "it is hard going back to being in training" mentality should only really apply in the sense of finances. The respect will still be there.

Of course the palliative care MD isn't directly managing all aspects of medical care but I don't see how I can provide even palliative care with a 20 year old understanding of management of even common medical conditions.
Yes and no. There are some palliative units where indeed you manage all facets of care as you are primary service. Depending on the culture of your dept that MIGHT be managing pure EoL patients with only symptom management -- or it could be managing somewhat medically complex "palliative patients" that need admission for XYZ. In my fellowship, our palliative unit functioned as the latter. I did not particularly feel confident or comfortable functioning essentially as an internist/hospitalist for these patients given my primary specialty being EM. Sure, I can manage them in the ED, but my primary field didn't encompass "so what comes next" (not that EM training should do otherwise). Overall, it was fine in fellowship as there was the attending for oversight (basically all IM primary specialty folks).

I took this knowledge and honest self-reflection to my subsequent job search with pointed questions about how places on the attending interview trail ran their IPU's (regarding management culture and admission criteria). I am perfectly comfortable managing the patients solo on my current IPU as these folks are not getting admitted to us for ongoing curative intent management of their melting tracheoesophageal-mediastinal-XYZ fistulas, acute on chronic hyponatremia, or thyroid crisis XYZ... Really we function more as an inpatient hospice and I am very happy with that. I offer our patients and their loved ones a "good death" or achieve stabilization of acute symptoms with the ability to return to their home/nursing facility. It is a good fit for my interests and training.

There are tons of institutions that don't have any form of IPU... it is all inpatient consults... or outpatient clinic... some institutions are all goals of care and very little symptom management.... others are more 50:50. It is important to know what you want because all the combinations are out there. But not all the combinations are out there in every geographic region.

In a palliative program worth it's salt you will get much more than primary palliative skills (basic GoC skills, standard opioid rotation, etc). You would ideally get exposure to more complex opioids (methadone, buprenorphine, etc) as well as adjuvants (ketamine, lidocaine, etc) for pain... and continue down the line for many various symptoms. I'm sure as psychedelics progress in clinical medicine our field will be among the early adopters. Really though the value of fellowship is the variety of patients under supervision and teaching of a HPM doc. Sure, you can read articles and textbooks without a fellowship...but going that route you don't get instant feedback and input on what is going well [or not well]. That honest specialty lens feedback is what will mold your practice.

Also, palliative jobs are requiring more and more being BE/BC in the field... so there is that.

Your background knowledge and experience in RadOnc would put you much ahead of most fellows with your understanding of different cancers, chemo regimens, radiation regimens, side effects, etc... than say a graduating EM resident (such as I). I'm sure you have experience with managing things like mucositis, I can't say I even knew much about it at all graduating residency. I sure do now though as I manage folks with it all the time. Yes, you will learn everything you need in fellowship to be [on paper] an HPM subspecialist regardless of what residency was pursued; however, that RadOnc foundation is nothing to shake a stick at!

The learning continues. It is a field one can easily practice into their 70's+ if so desired.

Happy to field any other questions you might have.
 
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Thank you for the tag.
I completed my fellowship in HPM as a PGY4 after EM residency. I practice full-time at a large academic center in the palliative dept which is housed in the cancer institute. I'm faculty with the HPM fellowship at said institution, to OP's point, one of our graduating fellows had 20 years of experience as an attending prior to starting their HPM fellowship.


Yes and no. There are some palliative units where indeed you manage all facets of care as you are primary service. Depending on the culture of your dept that MIGHT be managing pure EoL patients with only symptom management -- or it could be managing somewhat medically complex "palliative patients" that need admission for XYZ. In my fellowship, our palliative unit functioned as the latter. I did not particularly feel confident or comfortable functioning essentially as an internist/hospitalist for these patients given my primary specialty being EM. It was fine in fellowship as there was the attending for oversight (basically all IM primary specialty folks).

I took this knowledge and honest self-reflection to my subsequent job search with pointed questions about how places on the attending interview trail ran their IPU's (regarding management culture and admission criteria). I am perfectly comfortable managing the patients solo on my current IPU as these folks are not getting admitted to us for ongoing curative intent management of their melting esophagus fistulas, acute on chronic hyponatremia, or thyroid crisis XYZ... Really we function more as an inpatient hospice and I am very happy with that. I offer our patients and their loved ones a "good death" or achieve stabilization of acute symptoms with the ability to return to their home/nursing facility. It is a good fit for my interests and training.

There are tons of institutions that don't have any form of IPU... it is all inpatient consults... or outpatient clinic... some institutions are all goals of care and very little symptom management.... others are more 50:50. It is important to know what you want because all the combinations are out there. But not all the combinations are out there in every geographic region.

In a palliative program worth it's salt you will get much more than primary palliative skills (basic GoC skills, standard opioid rotation, etc). You would ideally get exposure to more complex opioids (methadone, buprenorphine, etc) as well as adjuvants (ketamine, lidocaine, etc) for pain... down the line for many various symptoms. Really though the value of fellowship is the variety of patients under supervision and teaching of a HPM doc. Sure, you can read articles and textbooks without a fellowship...but you don't get feedback and input on what is going well or not without that honest specialty lens feedback.

Also, palliative jobs are requiring more and more being BE/BC in the field... so there is that.

Your background knowledge and experience in RadOnc would put you much ahead of most fellows with your understanding of different cancers, chemo regimens, radiation regimens, side effects, etc... than say a graduating EM resident (such as I). Yes, you will learn everything you need in fellowship to be on a paper a subspecialist; however that RadOnc foundation is nothing to shake a stick at!

The learning continues. It is a field one can easily practice into their 70's+ if so desired.

Happy to field any other questions you might have.
I clicked the "Physician Pain Scale" link in your signature. I modified it a bit:

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Thank you both for your responses. Glad to hear a few current HPM docs think a Rad Onc making that transition is not out of the realm.

@Frazier can you please define IPU? Google search suggests it stands for 'Inpatient Hospice Unit'??
 
Thanks for the incredible detail in your post guys. A couple of questions:

1. How does a PM fellowship work if you are long out of residency? Do you have to pay out of pocket? I assume it is one year?
2. For people like Rad Oncs who only do a single year of IM or transitional year - do we have the chops to manage IM issues that comes part and parcel with PM?
 
Thank you both for your responses. Glad to hear a few current HPM docs think a Rad Onc making that transition is not out of the realm.

@Frazier can you please define IPU? Google search suggests it stands for 'Inpatient Hospice Unit'??

Sure. IPU can mean different things, you are correct. I was using IPU as "inpatient palliative unit." Others use it to stand for "InPatient unit." Others refer to an inpatient hospice unit as "IPU" (which conventionally would be assumed to be an abbreviation similar to above)...but would be more accurately reflected as the formal level of care "GIP" (general inpatient [hospice]). Alphabet soup.

Long story short, you are spot on. A designated in-hospital/facility unit for patients receiving intensive hospice or palliative services.
 
Thanks for the incredible detail in your post guys. A couple of questions:

1. How does a PM fellowship work if you are long out of residency? Do you have to pay out of pocket? I assume it is one year?
2. For people like Rad Oncs who only do a single year of IM or transitional year - do we have the chops to manage IM issues that comes part and parcel with PM?
1. My co-fellow last year had been practicing as a primary care attending for >10 years, and from what I've heard that situation is far from uncommon. Of course you don't have to pay anything. You are salaried, typically at the PGY-4 level (approximately $60-80k depending on geography, program, etc). Yes it is a one-year fellowship!
2. It is not uncommon for people to enter palliative after a psychiatry residency, which would have a similar amount of IM training. So I don't see why it would be an insurmountable barrier.
 
1. My co-fellow last year had been practicing as a primary care attending for >10 years, and from what I've heard that situation is far from uncommon. Of course you don't have to pay anything. You are salaried, typically at the PGY-4 level (approximately $60-80k depending on geography, program, etc). Yes it is a one-year fellowship!
2. It is not uncommon for people to enter palliative after a psychiatry residency, which would have a similar amount of IM training. So I don't see why it would be an insurmountable barrier.
Thank you for posting. I think it would be an incredibly rewarding career and if I ever found myself stuck would strongly consider.

The only way I would run an inpatient service though is if all patients were required to be DNR/DNI.

We generally have no business running a code....
 
Thank you for posting. I think it would be an incredibly rewarding career and if I ever found myself stuck would strongly consider.

The only way I would run an inpatient service though is if all patients were required to be DNR/DNI.

We generally have no business running a code....

I'm not sure that HPM includes learning how to intubate. Run a code is literally just ACLS. Everyone learned that during intern year.

But, does HPM in IPU units involve truly 'running' the code?
 
I'm not sure that HPM includes learning how to intubate. Run a code is literally just ACLS. Everyone learned that during intern year.

But, does HPM in IPU units involve truly 'running' the code?

That would be a profound outlier. My current unit has admission criteria that includes the patient needs to be DNR/DNI. That can sometimes rub patients/families/consulting service the wrong way when they hear "sorry, we cannot admit ... patient must be DNR/DNI." They automatically confuse the unit as some sort of death unit and think we are out to kill patients. Far from the case. There is a reasonable percentage of patients that get discharged. However the goals, focus, intention, ambiance, are all highly incongruent with the scenario of pomp and bravado inherent to rapid responses and code blues.

The palliative unit in my fellowship permitted full and limited code patients. I never had one of my folks code during the year when they were full/limited code. Just a coincidence, I'm sure they do quite often. Higher chance that they would have coded when I wasnt in the hospital anyway (8-5 back then).

Like you mentioned, the code itself is ACLS which pretty much everyone checked that box by working in any inpatient unit.

Also codes/rapids are usually ran by designated teams in the hospital called by overhead. Folks that are largely strangers to patient family storming in and swarming, then if they survive they get to graduate to the tiny room with beeps/wires/yelling in the ICU. It is just all quite discordant.

We are happy to see and facilitate care of patients that are full code. However, we will not be primary. Patients are not required to be DNR/DNI in order to enroll in hospice, so if a patient is admitted for GIP level care there is scenario where patient wouldnt be in the GIP unit if the goal is to go out with compressions and shocks.
 
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That would be a profound outlier. My current unit has admission criteria that includes the patient needs to be DNR/DNI. That can sometimes rub patients/families/consulting service the wrong way when they hear "sorry, we cannot admit ... patient must be DNR/DNI." They automatically confuse the unit as some sort of death unit and think we are out to kill patients. Far from the case. There is a reasonable percentage of patients that get discharged. However the goals, focus, intention, ambiance, are all highly incongruent with the scenario of pomp and bravado inherent to rapid responses and code blues.

The palliative unit in my fellowship permitted full and limited code patients. I never had one of my folks code during the year when they were full/limited code. Just a coincidence, I'm sure they do quite often. Higher chance that they would have coded when I wasnt in the hospital anyway (8-5 back then).

Like you mentioned, the code itself is ACLS which pretty much everyone checked that box by working in any inpatient unit.

Also codes/rapids are usually ran by designated teams in the hospital called by overhead. Folks that are largely strangers to patient family storming in and swarming, then if they survive they get to graduate to the tiny room with beeps/wires/yelling in the ICU. It is just all quite discordant.

We are happy to see and facilitate care of patients that are full code. However, we will not be primary. Patients are not required to be DNR/DNI in order to enroll in hospice, so if a patient is admitted for GIP level care there is scenario where patient wouldnt be in the GIP unit if the goal is to go out with compressions and shocks.
Thank you so much for contributing, as someone who has toyed with becoming palliative care certified down the line, your input has been quite valuable.
 
I agree. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this up. It appears as though palliative care fellowships aren’t very competitive but they only accept through ERAS. There probably isn’t enough time to get an application together this cycle (for 2023-2024) but for obvious reasons going from experienced board certified radiation oncology to fellowship (not to mention fellowship salary) is something that really needs to be planned for in advance and I also truly believe that the program and of course patients deserve an MD who will commit 100% to the training and subsequent career … it’s not their fault that some of us are in this position and unfair to accept a fellowship and career transition without full effort and commitment. I readily admit I’m not there (yet) but again thanks so much for this valuable input!
 
Thank you. Yes, I agree that it isn't a competitive subspecialty for a number of reasons. Likely all would match if you check all the boxes on ERAS. Of course places like Harvard, Mayo, UCSF, etc will be competitive -- and more desirable locations are competitive as well (such as UCSD, which also happens to be a great program too).

That said, just matching isn't necessarily enough IMO. You will get a job, sure. But I will err on the side of assuming that the type of person that matched and completed RadOnc training is serious about education/training...Like many fields, there are crappy HPM programs where the teaching isn't all that great. If you are leaving your specialty of RadOnc to train in your subspecialty field of PallMed -- I think you owe it to yourself to match at a place that will offer top notch education and training.

Likely the RadOnc background would help immensely with matching, and you would be quite competitive on that merit alone. We are used to people applying for fellowship as a stepping stone to something else (use PallMed fellowship to be more competitive for a Heme/Onc or Crit Care fellowship, etc)... While there is a decent number of attendings leaving IM/EM/FM to practice HPM -- I think your application would be quite a novelty status with the RadOnc background.

It is no rush. The field will be here for you if and when you decide to pursue it in the future.
 
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