radiologists

[NickNaylor]

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You barely have to worry about loans if you're making $240k/yr, but of course it's your prerogative to worry about what other physicians made in the past. I feel bad for everyone who will let that sort of thing bother them.

I would be concerned if 20-25% of my post-tax income was going to pay off student loans (ESPECIALLY if I had a gross salary of $240k - that's a ton of money), which wouldn't be unreasonable if you had a high debt load. You're not going to be "worried" about paying the loans because you WILL pay them. That's not a question.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You barely have to worry about loans if you're making $240k/yr, but of course it's your prerogative to worry about what other physicians made in the past. I feel bad for everyone who will let that sort of thing bother them.

It's one thing to dislike changes to the system. It's another to be jealous of people because they lived in the "better" system.

I believe that "changes to the system" is the major concern here. Keeping in mind how it was in the past establishes a trend. Am I jealous of older docs? Not really. But knowing where they were and where they are now sets up where we might be in a few years.

 

[Bangersandmash]

It's not a matter of paying it back. Yeah we'll eventually be able to but it's no easy feat. I have a quarter of the amount of loans that a lot of my classmates did and it's pretty stressful. I can only imagine what some people are facing (private undergrads, post-bacs, med school, 4 yr+ of residency). It's definitely not unheard of to come out in 300-400k+ of loans (not including interest). Most of us can't start putting a dent in those until post-residency when we're over 30. Add on top of that add mortgages, kids, etc. It's nice as a premed but wait until after you've run the gamut.

Good point. I guess I'll forgo medical school and get a 30k/year research position with my undergraduate science degree. That'll cover my undergraduate debt and allow me to live a decent lifestyle compared to my more indebted doctor friends right?

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Believe me, I will be ecstatic to earn half of that if I didn't have to worry about loans. However, I will always feel ripped off knowing how much better older generation physicians had it.

100% this. Across the board, they had it good. Not just in terms of pay, but most facets of medical practice.

I believe that "changes to the system" is the major concern here. Keeping in mind how it was in the past establishes a trend. Am I jealous of older docs? Not really. But knowing where they were and where they are now sets up where we might be in a few years.

F*&k this whole "comparison" game. I know it's human nature, but it's just a freaking happiness sponge. It does nobody any good. I've regretted every moment I've spent being envious of "how good someone else has/had it." This applies to anything: money, charisma, looks, attention, w/e. There's boundless good in life and a moment spent coveting is a moment missing that goodness.

Bottom line is, I'm going to be doing something I enjoy and be able to provide bountifully for a potential family. What the heck do I care about some dude who was able to live in a bigger house or own a few more toys 20 years back in the day?

 

[NickNaylor]

F*&k this whole "comparison" game. I know it's human nature, but it's just a freaking happiness sponge. It does nobody any good. I've regretted every moment I've spent being envious of "how good someone else has/had it." This applies to anything: money, charisma, looks, attention, w/e. There's boundless good in life and a moment spent coveting is a moment missing that goodness.

Bottom line is, I'm going to be doing something I enjoy and be able to provide bountifully for a potential family. What the heck do I care about some dude who was able to live in a bigger house or own a few more toys 20 years back in the day?

Just remember that if you roll over and accept everything that comes at you, you WILL be taken advantage of. It seems that the profession of medicine as a whole is entirely unwilling to defend its own interests. Defending your interests doesn't mean your envious or greedy.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Just remember that if you roll over and accept everything that comes at you, you WILL be taken advantage of. It seems that the profession of medicine as a whole is entirely unwilling to defend its own interests. Defending your interests doesn't mean your envious or greedy.

Yea, but there's a line between taking a stand and bathing in frustrated resentment, same as there's a line between willful tranquility and being a doormat.

I'd say, when there's something to be done, be Napoleon. When there isn't, be Buddha. It just sucks to be Napoleon on Elba, which is what I imagine many docs who get paycuts feel like.

 

[NickNaylor]

Yea, but there's a line between taking a stand and bathing in frustrated resentment, same as there's a line between willful tranquility and being a doormat.

I'd say, when there's something to be done, be Napoleon. When there isn't, be Buddha. It just sucks to be Napoleon on Elba, which is what I imagine many docs who get paycuts feel like.

I would be frustrated too if my pay was being cut significantly. It's easy to say "lol 240k is still a lot get used to it nubs," but when you have structured your life around an income - including things that aren't all that liquid, like a house, cars, school expenses for kids if necessary, retirement savings, etc. - and that income is slashed SIGNIFICANTLY overnight, I would be understandably upset. Gradual, announced, and planned cuts are one thing. A perpetually looming 20% cut on reimbursements with no real expectation of whether it will be yet again postponed or allowed to take effect is quite another.

You have a set budget at your undergrad. Imagine that in July before you return to school (but after you've made your long-term plans for the year, e.g., signing a lease for an apartment), you're told that your financial aid budget has been cut by 20%. You will obviously get by with some effort and changes in plans, but I imagine you would also be telling people that are saying "lol you're in college your life is privileged, get over it" to piss off.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

I would be frustrated too if my pay was being cut significantly. It's easy to say "lol 240k is still a lot get used to it nubs," but when you have structured your life around an income - including things that aren't all that liquid, like a house, cars, school expenses for kids if necessary, retirement savings, etc. - and that income is slashed SIGNIFICANTLY overnight, I would be understandably upset. Gradual, announced, and planned cuts are one thing. A perpetually looming 20% cut on reimbursements with no real expectation of whether it will be yet again postponed or allowed to take effect is quite another.

You have a set budget at your undergrad. Imagine that in July before you return to school (but after you've made your long-term plans for the year, e.g., signing a lease for an apartment), you're told that your financial aid budget has been cut by 20%. You will obviously get by with some effort and changes in plans, but I imagine you would also be telling people that are saying "lol you're in college your life is privileged, get over it" to piss off.

Look, I agree with you man, and I understand the crap-nature of the situation. I'm not trying to be glib and brush this stuff off, but I've done enough brooding in my life to know that sitting in the muck of my own or the collective's discontent just doesn't make anything better. I know it's trite, and I know platitudes are not the most enticing thing when you're in the dumps.

I dunno, in this situation, I guess the best thing to do then is to go into the field with the expectation that things will be volatile and precarious, so that you can create a cushion. We're still premeds/med students, so we've still got time.

 

[gasblaster]

Good point. I guess I'll forgo medical school and get a 30k/year research position with my undergraduate science degree. That'll cover my undergraduate debt and allow me to live a decent lifestyle compared to my more indebted doctor friends right?

I have no idea how you extracted that from what I said. All I'm saying is that, like with any other sound investment, there is an expected return. For us there is an investment of a substantial amount of money and years lost. I didn't say anything remotely close to your response.

P.S. Have you all noticed that it's premeds and then everyone else in medicine (med students, residents, attendings)

 

[MiracleforMD]

Believe me, I will be ecstatic to earn half of that if I didn't have to worry about loans. However, I will always feel ripped off knowing how much better older generation physicians had it.

What you just said is the basically the mantra of fiscal liberals. "I'm OK with how I have it, but look how good they have it! Wahhhh."

 

[MiracleforMD]

In most cases nuclear medicine falls under the heading of radiology. There are a few separate nuclear medicine residencies, but since radiologists can read nuclear medicine studies but not vice versa, and since the future of nuclear medicine is likely combo studies like PET-MRI, a distinct nuclear medicine field isn't long for this world I suspect.

Thanks.

 

[Bangersandmash]

I have no idea how you extracted that from what I said. All I'm saying is that, like with any other sound investment, there is an expected return. For us there is an investment of a substantial amount of money and years lost. I didn't say anything remotely close to your response.

P.S. Have you all noticed that it's premeds and then everyone else in medicine (med students, residents, attendings)

I exaggerated to make a point. I've heard from a number of doctors in real life, as well as people on this forum, to make sure I'm doing medicine because it is what I want and not to do it for the money. This is usually followed up by some sort of complaints about debt, reimbursement cuts, etc. I'm well aware of the time and money involved, but you can say the same thing about undergraduate studies and almost any other profession (except engineers maybe).

Look how many kids graduate with bachelor's degrees and can't get jobs. Except for the ones getting full scholarships, even kids at public universities will probably have a few tens of thousands of dollars in debt racked up. Many of the lucky ones to get jobs get entry positions that are less than 50k a year. Did they not make an investment 4 years ago to enter college with an expected return to have a comfortably paying job? In Florida, there are hiring freezes (and layoffs) for teachers and many state employees haven't gotten a raise in years. Law students have it especially bad, because after throwing in the cost of their graduate school, their job prospects suck.

I may be a lowly pre-med who hasn't been in the shoes of a soon-to-be doctor, but you can live modestly and comfortably on a 200k salary even with student loans. Especially because you know you will have a job to go to after school. Undergrads coming out of school (albeit with less debt) can't say the same. And you certainly can't say a 40k yearly salary with undergrad debt is a cakewalk to support a family.

Yeah, I get it, it sucks to have money taken from you. Doctors shouldn't have to put up with all the bull****. The paperwork and lawsuit risks and government regulations make work less enjoyable and stress you out. It makes me worry about my decision to go into medical school. But financially, whether I'm making 200k or 300k a year with medical school debt is irrelevant to me, because my other career options are even bleaker in my eyes.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I love this field, especially since I am a visual person. I have no problem earning even $200,000 a year as long as I can pay back my student loans and be able to support my future family.

I am scarred of their specialty exams though (I know it is far down the road for me), which are probably one of the toughest of all specialties.

 

[DrBowtie]

I love this field, especially since I am a visual person. I have no problem earning even $200,000 a year as long as I can pay back my student loans and be able to support my future family.

I am scarred of their specialty exams though (I know it is far down the road for me), which are probably one of the toughest of all specialties.

No. This attitude has no place here. Don't devalue the education and training.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

No. This attitude has no place here. Don't devalue the education and training.

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