Radiology: getting ready for tomorrow

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drjaymehta

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Hello,

Recently read a nice article posted by a senior european radiologist..

He said, "unless the radiologists dont act fast they will lose out"

maybe that prompted lots of radiologists to answer that they too are clinicians and due to that the CLINICAL training in radiology is set to increase..

share your views on what all does the radiological speciality do to keep its position safe..

especially with the other taking away so much work from them..
 
by taking away a lot their work I mean that a lot of the Interventional procedures are being taken away by the other specialities..

Also with the advent of the organ specific imaging..all the imaging pertaining to one particular organ would be taken over by other specialites..

then what will the radiologists be left with???
 
stop trolling prior to match day
 
this might actually be a legitimate question/topic for debate.
Would hate to see it just marked as "troll" and never responded to.
 
i think this is a topic which needs some serious discussion...

thanks peduncle, please others do reply..
 
by taking away a lot their work I mean that a lot of the Interventional procedures are being taken away by the other specialities..

Also with the advent of the organ specific imaging..all the imaging pertaining to one particular organ would be taken over by other specialites..

then what will the radiologists be left with???

Time will tell but my guess is that radiology will remain a competitive field into the future. New generation radiologists aren't going to just sit on their hands and let other fields eat them. Don't forget those going into radiology are generally considered somewhat "smart".

My feelings is the real "threat" is how health-care will change in the coming administration.
 
You do realize that they are proposing a 44% cut in technical fees, right?

A new formula proposed by the influential Medicare Payment Advisory Commission for calculating practice expense relative value units could cut technical payments for MRI, CT, and PET from the Medicare Physician Fee Schedule by as much as 44%.​


That means the cards, GI, ortho, etc who bought their own equipment will have a very hard time justifying owning it now.

Radiology will be just fine. Imaging costs are in the cross-hairs of Congress and the White House. Reimbursements will drop. Only groups with the volume and efficiency to read will want to continue to read, ie, radiologists who do this full-time. No more driveby readings by cards, GI, and whatnot. They may eventually pass a ban on self-referrals too. That is what will really hurt the non-radiologists.
 
all radiologists would wish that it should come in soon..especially with the cuts, it will bcom diff for the other specialites to maintain their MRIs

Also, some of the modalities of imaging like the cardiac MRI would be retained only by the radiologists as the cards maybe just dont have what it takes to read an MRI, i feel..

also, there are some things which only a radiologist can do I suppose..

but the real question is actually acting and holding on to it before the other specialities snatch them away..
 
Still a lowly MS3, so take my thoughts with a huge grain of salt. That being said, here are a few of those thoughts...

Organ specific imaging... so what are the cards, GI, pulm, or whoever going to do with all of the other stuff on the image? As far as I know, this has always been a sticking point. I know that people have been toying with digital subtraction, so that for example a cardiologist could remove everything but the heart, but that raises an ethical question if the machine captured much more and the cardiologist simply "deleted" everything he didn't want to see. Not much different IMO than it being on the screen and the card just not looking at it. This results in a radiologist needing to over-read the image for everything that isn't specific to that organ, and you generally don't get to pay two people for reading the same image. This greatly limits, for now at least, the amount of non-rads (final) reading of imaging.

Interventional procedures... yes, other specialties are doing many similar procedures... cardiology, vascular surgeons, neurosurgeons, even the brave general surgeon here and there, and I have heard of nephrologists being trained to do renal artery stenting. I can imagine them jumping at that idea. But the bottom line is that the use of image guidance during procedures is likely to blossom, both in quantity and variety of procedures. So there will probably be plenty of this to spread around to the other specialists, and probably plenty of new "IR" specific procedures that are cutting edge. Remember, technology is only going to increase and radiology always gets the cool toys first. Which also happen to usually pay well when new.

While I'm at it...

Outsourcing overseas... sure, there is a bit of this now. I had someone just today when they found out I was interested in rads try to dissuade me with the following scenario, paraphrased roughly as "sure, Mr. Gupta in India will happily allow you to cover night reads and be the 'guy on the ground' do push contrast and such, while he sits overseas and does the reads for a fraction of your fee, thus taking your business." Sounds scary. But India is on the other side of the world... their day is our night. They would be doing our night reads. Besides, the bigger point is that Mr. Gupta would have to be a US trained radiologist carrying US insurance and subject to the same regulations, malpractice exposure, etc. as anyone practicing stateside. Sure, a few will chose to "go back home" to India or wherever, or maybe take up residence in Australia or Hawaii to do night coverage for us and "live the good life" there, but it isn't hard to see why this will be largely self-limiting. You don't have to worry about outsourcing overseas until the time comes when reads can be done by a technician, or a non-US credentialed doctor, etc. And that time will never come. How are you going to sue the guy who missed the lung cancer when he wasn't even required to be fully trained in recognizing them and understanding the implication? And if he isn't trained, who in their right mind would provide him malpractice coverage? Not going to happen unless tort reform here evolves in a way no one can imagine. The doomsday scenario of a divergence of radiology specialties into IR, DR, and "field radiologists" is just a fantasy of people who never considered the field in the first place.

Teleradiology... a bigger "threat" than overseas outsourcing. But we're already seeing a decline in their popularity. It's useful to actually have someone there in person as much as possible, especially when they have real people skills. Teleradiology will likely continue to be a major competition (if you want to call it that, others might call it an option) for night coverage and rural clinic and outlying hospital coverage. Most radiologists don't want to work those jobs anyway, not in the traditional sense, so that's understandable. Though the field needs to be careful to keep a balance and not let them overgrow into more mainstream coverage... and it looks like this self-regulating is already taking place.

Reimbursement cuts... this is a real issue, and one that can't be easily dismissed. They're going to happen. People already think imaging fees are too high, so they're going to be on the chopping block in one way or another. Radiologists have a well funded voice on the hill, and are generally a bright group, and have traditionally been able to defend their turf and payment quite well, but the economy is in the crapper and a new sheriff is in town who looks determined to cut healthcare reimbursements in major ways. It wouldn't surprise me if much of today's imaging reimbursement rates were cut as much as 50% in the coming years. At that pay, I still think rads beats any other specialty, especially considering that the others are not immune from cuts either. On the other side of the coin, as I said above, radiology by its technology driven nature gets the new toys first. And new toys get paid well. There was a time not too long ago when plain films were all we had. Well, there was that weird CT precursor, can't remember the name, but its use was limited. We added US, which was and continues to be useful but limited. Then along came CT and it drastically changed the way we view the body. Also remember that MRI is a fairly new technology. And we've already seen maturation of these into CTA, MRA, etc. It is hard to imagine that MRI is the last great advance of imaging modalities. Who knows what the future holds, but one thing that is almost certain is that whenever it comes, radiologist will have the first crack at it and will get paid well for it. I can't see radiology ever becoming a stagnant field for that reason.
 
thanks for a good picture Osli..

I agree to your thoughts and with a lot of what you say..

But dont you realise one thing, thought there are a lot of radiologists reading cardiac MRIs and cardiac CT angiographies..but the point is there are other people from the cardiology field who are trying to eat into that..

I have heard that the ACR is taking some action against that and will get in a rule wherein only a radiologist can read those images and report them..

Also, with the reimbursements going out, lot of people from other specialities who were doing their own imaging would stop it as it would be too difficult to maintain it..
 
But dont you realise one thing, thought there are a lot of radiologists reading cardiac MRIs and cardiac CT angiographies..but the point is there are other people from the cardiology field who are trying to eat into that..
Yes, this is definitely a turf war area, though I've heard a lot of interesting opinions on the subject. A lot of radiologists don't want to read them due to the complexity and time required vs. reimbursement. I'd have to think that it would be a good idea to hang on to these reads however to prevent "margin erosion" of radiology scope. But I think you might have overlooked the point I was trying to make. Do you think the heart is the only thing that shows up on a CT or MRI cardiac series? Do you think a cardiologist is going to be comfortable commenting on a mediastinal mass when they are really quite separated from much of the pathology in that region? Or a lung mass?

So there are three choices: (1) Have a radiologist "over-read" the series for non-heart stuff. Not a good option when insurance is only going to pay for one read, and neither doc is going to want to tackle the series for half pay. (2) Have a radiologist do the read. Makes sense, though there is a legitimate argument that a radiologist may not have the specialty expertise in cardiac matters to recognize subtle findings. I happen to think that if CT heart or MRI heart ever gets really popular, rads residencies will cover it just fine. (3) Push a digital subtraction button on the machine to discard everything from the series that isn't heart. A lot of cards guys seem to like this option from what I can gather. But I have to wonder... if the patient finds out a year later they have a terminal lung cancer that would have been operable a year ago, and asks why the cardiologist didn't notice it on the CT he had done back then, and the cardiologist responds "oh, because I deleted everything that I didn't want to look at", there are bound to be attorneys involved in the matter in short time.
 
all the three choices which you gave are very relevant osli..

DSA doesnt seem to be the way to go most of the time..Also not all cardiologists read MRI..and if they ever come into use, the rads will cover it..

Its just that there are a lot of news about the same..I also dont think that a radiologist is so unaware of the cardiac fucntioning that he cant interpret a cardiac MRI..however, a combined approach is the best way to go..atleast assures a better patient care..

With the advent of Virtual Imaging, there is some positive sign that the other specialties wont interfere..Any clue of any such cutting edge developments in diagnostic and interventional radiology..

Any clue of any action by the ACR legally to disallow other specialties from giving the radiodiagnosis..??
 
As long as radiology is paid as TC and PC you guys are screwed. Ten years from now you are all going to begging to read plain films because all the specialists are using imaging as their primary diagnostic tool. Radiologists decided to give up on patients, well they are no longer going to need you.

How many of you guys who even worry about the future of radiology are even involved in ACR campaigns? My guess is very few of you. Beggers can't be choosers.
 
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any response to the above comments....

maybe spyder doesnt know, had all what he has been thinking been true, radiology as a speciality wouldnt have existed at all!!!

Had imaging been so easy, every curriculum would have included it...

and also, the equipments used are slightly costly, maybe spyder doesnt even know that...
 
As long as radiology is paid as TC and PC you guys are screwed. Ten years from now you are all going to begging to read plain films because all the specialists are using imaging as their primary diagnostic tool. Radiologists decided to give up on patients, well they are no longer going to need you.

How many of you guys who even worry about the future of radiology are even involved in ACR campaigns? My guess is very few of you. Beggers can't be choosers.

ppl like you have been praying for the doomsday of radiology for how long now? 5-10 years? Yeah the internet is gonna destroy radiology, yeah no patient means no business. Cmon be real, Radiology remains one of the premier fields of medicine with a good lifestyle. Just look at the match this year, Radiology applications have again spiked higher and taking some of the smartest medical students. I don't think they're stupid enough to let the field die. In fact the newer generation is evolving the field. IR at many top places have their own clinics and yes they even round on the floors.
 
ppl like you have been praying for the doomsday of radiology for how long now? 5-10 years? Yeah the internet is gonna destroy radiology, yeah no patient means no business. Cmon be real, Radiology remains one of the premier fields of medicine with a good lifestyle. Just look at the match this year, Radiology applications have again spiked higher and taking some of the smartest medical students. I don't think they're stupid enough to let the field die. In fact the newer generation is evolving the field. IR at many top places have their own clinics and yes they even round on the floors.

I've found the chairs of radiology departments to be among the smartest, savviest, and "most connected" members of the hospital. I wouldn't worry too much about radiology disappearing without a fight.
 
ppl like you have been praying for the doomsday of radiology for how long now? 5-10 years? Yeah the internet is gonna destroy radiology, yeah no patient means no business. Cmon be real, Radiology remains one of the premier fields of medicine with a good lifestyle. Just look at the match this year, Radiology applications have again spiked higher and taking some of the smartest medical students. I don't think they're stupid enough to let the field die. In fact the newer generation is evolving the field. IR at many top places have their own clinics and yes they even round on the floors.

Look I am not saying that Radiology is dying, I realize that clinicians do not have the time to see both patients and read films, what I am saying you are putting yourselves out of business.

Your own colleagues are killing the field, turf-wars are just the icing on the cake. Along side self-referrals, partners screwing new recruits, IR getting f'd by the diagnostics guys, not really sure what "smart" people you are talking about. You can keep saying whatever helps you sleep at night while the guys in private practice keep taking cuts and increasing volume just to break-even.

Ask yourself why is radiology paid in TWO components. The answer may surprise you.
 
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Look I am not saying that Radiology is dying, I realize that clinicians do not have the time to see both patients and read films, what I am saying you are putting yourselves out of business.

Your own colleagues are killing the field, turf-wars are just the icing on the cake. Along side self-referrals, partners screwing new recruits, IR getting f'd by the diagnostics guys, not really sure what "smart" people you are talking about. You can keep saying whatever helps you sleep at night while the guys in private practice keep taking cuts and increasing volume just to break-even.

Ask yourself why is radiology paid in TWO components. The answer may surprise you.

U mean the technical and professional fee? The ACR has been lobbying to combine the two. So what field of medicine is the most secure? Of course it's primary care (IM or FP). Most students know this yet why do they avoid the fields so much? Hmmm... are they all stupid?
 
Look I am not saying that Radiology is dying, I realize that clinicians do not have the time to see both patients and read films, what I am saying you are putting yourselves out of business.

Your own colleagues are killing the field, turf-wars are just the icing on the cake. Along side self-referrals, partners screwing new recruits, IR getting f'd by the diagnostics guys, not really sure what "smart" people you are talking about. You can keep saying whatever helps you sleep at night while the guys in private practice keep taking cuts and increasing volume just to break-even.

Ask yourself why is radiology paid in TWO components. The answer may surprise you.

Also looks like you've "hated" radiology for years from ur past posts. Why? Stop hating and worry about urself.
 
Also looks like you've "hated" radiology for years from ur past posts. Why? Stop hating and worry about urself.

I am tired of seeing physicians living in a dream world, lets call it a 'healthcare bubble' where they think they can ignore the reality of medical business. You have already seen what can happen to an entire economy when people ignore the warning signs just like the idiots on wall street did a year ago. You are traveling down the same path. The fact that you can't even accept there is a major problem with rads is telling on its own. Factions are forming within the field and you better choose a side. I am "hating" radiology because all of you have become a bunch of pompous pricks with no regard or respect for the medical profession. Like the DNP's encroaching on primary care, like the CRNA jabbing at Anesthesia, as you give up procedure after procedure to cards, GI, nephro, neuro, you will finally understand how foolish your attitude is. Sure, lets stick our fingers in our ears, and keep singing the same song.
 
I am tired of seeing physicians living in a dream world, lets call it a 'healthcare bubble' where they think they can ignore the reality of medical business. You have already seen what can happen to an entire economy when people ignore the warning signs just like the idiots on wall street did a year ago. You are traveling down the same path. The fact that you can't even accept there is a major problem with rads is telling on its own. Factions are forming within the field and you better choose a side. I am "hating" radiology because all of you have become a bunch of pompous pricks with no regard or respect for the medical profession. Like the DNP's encroaching on primary care, like the CRNA jabbing at Anesthesia, as you give up procedure after procedure to cards, GI, nephro, neuro, you will finally understand how foolish your attitude is. Sure, lets stick our fingers in our ears, and keep singing the same song.

You really dont understand much about radiology do you; or medicine for that matter. Listen, turf wars exist in every field if u haven't noticed. This is my last post about this topic but trust me, radiologists are fully aware of the problems facing them, hence is why there are a lot of lobbying efforts in the past years. I wouldn't call that sticking fingers in our ears. How the ##$# are radiologists pompous pricks with no respect for the medical profession, waht are u smoking? That would sound more like you. Radiologists are some of the nicest doctors. Ask anyone. Peace out and enjoy w/e medical field u decide on.
 
Exactly..

BE realistic spyder..

By your logic then even pathology would be a branch of each and every speciality..

And if you are talking of avoiding patient care, then let me remind you IRs and other radiologists have started taking rounds at many places, thats what you must have learnt.

Also to explain you, practically, if you are from some other speciality, will you be able to read a film the radiologist can?? wont you yourself be more interested in doing patient care and learning up the drug protocols rather than learning up image sequences..As far as your question of turf wars go, there are turf wars more so in radiology..and thats why this forum has been started just to get an opinion of others on it..
Will you as a physician ever do virtual colonoscopies, angioscopies PET and other imaging yourself..dont you think with the current level of advancement every speciality needs heavy indepth knowledge and expertize..
There are issues about the payscales going down and such things, but they hold true for every medical line..

You tell me how many physicians would like to own their own CT, MRI, PET etc..would that be feasible??

As far the people entering radiology are concerned, you must have learnt from the earlier posts that they are some of the smartest and most hardworking people..

Rather than fuelling such disparities between the medical lines, its better to have a co-operative effort to attain better patient care...

Just to add to your information, about 99% of the places, all imaging is done by the radiologists..

Anyone to agree with or differ with my comments??
 
Exactly..

BE realistic spyder..

By your logic then even pathology would be a branch of each and every speciality..

And if you are talking of avoiding patient care, then let me remind you IRs and other radiologists have started taking rounds at many places, thats what you must have learnt.

Also to explain you, practically, if you are from some other speciality, will you be able to read a film the radiologist can?? wont you yourself be more interested in doing patient care and learning up the drug protocols rather than learning up image sequences..As far as your question of turf wars go, there are turf wars more so in radiology..and thats why this forum has been started just to get an opinion of others on it..
Will you as a physician ever do virtual colonoscopies, angioscopies PET and other imaging yourself..dont you think with the current level of advancement every speciality needs heavy indepth knowledge and expertize..
There are issues about the payscales going down and such things, but they hold true for every medical line..

You tell me how many physicians would like to own their own CT, MRI, PET etc..would that be feasible??

As far the people entering radiology are concerned, you must have learnt from the earlier posts that they are some of the smartest and most hardworking people..

Rather than fuelling such disparities between the medical lines, its better to have a co-operative effort to attain better patient care...

Just to add to your information, about 99% of the places, all imaging is done by the radiologists..

Anyone to agree with or differ with my comments??

I can't believe you guys can't admit there is a 'war' of sorts brewing in radiology. Hopefully all medical students aren't that naive. I have several physicians in my family in a few medical specialties (cards, general practice, ob, neuro, onc), they ALL own their own imaging equipment ($$$). This board is hardly reflective of the views of what is happening in the real world, just a bunch of speculating med students. What I keep suggesting is that you future rads prepare yourselves (mentally) for the type of environment you will soon enter. Instead, I am met with criticism and doubt, even when your own attending colleagues are fleeing under the fog of war. Hospitals continue to cherry pick imaging because it is the specialties that bring in the $$$. Especially in this recession and with Obama at the helm where do you think the medicine in general is heading. Don't even talk about patient care, rads have no idea what that means. At least the IR guys are changing their tune, and hopefully they split off from radiology like rad onc did. Be realists, not idealists.
 
I can't believe you guys can't admit there is a 'war' of sorts brewing in radiology. Hopefully all medical students aren't that naive. I have several physicians in my family in a few medical specialties (cards, general practice, ob, neuro, onc), they ALL own their own imaging equipment ($$$). This board is hardly reflective of the views of what is happening in the real world, just a bunch of speculating med students. What I keep suggesting is that you future rads prepare yourselves (mentally) for the type of environment you will soon enter. Instead, I am met with criticism and doubt, even when your own attending colleagues are fleeing under the fog of war. Hospitals continue to cherry pick imaging because it is the specialties that bring in the $$$. Especially in this recession and with Obama at the helm where do you think the medicine in general is heading. Don't even talk about patient care, rads have no idea what that means. At least the IR guys are changing their tune, and hopefully they split off from radiology like rad onc did. Be realists, not idealists.

😕

Radiation oncology is the use of radiation to treat cancer. I'm not sure they were ever under the umbrella of diagnostic radiology.
 
great to hear from you again spyder..

I learn that you have a genuine disinterest towards anyone in radiology..

Do you have any idea of the laws coming up to curb self referrals for imaging..??
and since you have so many family guys into so many specialities who own their own imaging, I hope they dont have a tough time with such laws..

Also, I donno which place you hail from, but name me one radio department in one state which is BEGGING TO READ FILMS...
Other specialities have to be more concerned about treating patients, rather than learn imaging..the moto should be 1st be a master of treating patients of ur own speciality and then master imaging..

There have been so many studies which have shown that nonrads reading images have missed other pathologies..
I suppose you too are a medical student and if you have even an iota of ethics in you, you know how unethical it is to subject a patient to constant radiation for each and every speciality he visits..

There are so many other speciality departments giving up their own imaging due to reduced reimbursements..

As i am stating again, had it been so easy, it would never have been a speciality!!

But still, I really appreciate your strong anti-radio stand..
 
I am "hating" radiology because all of you have become a bunch of pompous pricks with no regard or respect for the medical profession.

This is Kettle calling Pot, come in Pot.....

.... this Kettle, come in......

I have several physicians in my family in a few medical specialties (cards, general practice, ob, neuro, onc), they ALL own their own imaging equipment ($$$).

Ah, well then that answers a lot of questions. I can only imagine the rads bashing that must be routine at family meals in the spyyder house...
 
Hmm... lot more trolls on these boards than the last time I frequented them. Sign of the times perhaps?

Rads won't go away anytime soon because reading films is hard and takes a lot of training. How many times have you rounded with a pulmonologist who's been in business for 30 years who looks at a Chest CT and reads it wrong? Why don't some orthopods just sit around and read MSK all day? Rads is hard and takes years of training and hundreds upon hundreds of hours of book reading to learn. Otherwise, I assure you, the greedy in other fields would have taken imaging long ago like cards did with ECHO. That above all else will keep us in business.

Self-referral eats away at the technical fees of groups that own their own machines. Self-referring physicians then hire rads to read the images coming out of their machines. But this practice is very much in the targeting cross-hairs of law makers right now. Unfortunately, the proposed solution is just to cut technical fees by 44%. Nuts...
 
There is one more topic of great interest academically..

Will cardiac CT angiography which is done by RADIOLOGISTS ever replace diagnostic cardiac catheterisation...done by rads at some places..??
 
😕

Radiation oncology is the use of radiation to treat cancer. I'm not sure they were ever under the umbrella of diagnostic radiology.

Radiation therapy and in general the use of radiation anything has always been in the field of Radiology (100+ years) at least in the US. Around the 1970's they broke off into their own field because it required its own training/certs/specialization. I expect IR to do the same within the next 15 years.
 
This is Kettle calling Pot, come in Pot.....

.... this Kettle, come in......



Ah, well then that answers a lot of questions. I can only imagine the rads bashing that must be routine at family meals in the spyyder house...

Yes, our monthly hazing of radiologists at all the local imaging centers have become somewhat of a family tradition. 🙄
 
Yes, our monthly hazing of radiologists at all the local imaging centers have become somewhat of a family tradition. 🙄
You must all be so proud.
 
hehe..

IR might branch out from DR like Rad onc..( I totally agree to this statement of yours spyyder)
But again even there most of the guys getting into training will mostly be from a radiology background..

Its such a big line that it needs its own specialists and radiology alone will not be able to accomodate such a huge line in itself..

"Will cardiac CT angiography which is done by RADIOLOGISTS ever replace diagnostic cardiac catheterisation"......No answers to this question as yet..

And with the advent of virtual imaging and molecular imaging, which will surely stay with the radiologists( i hope now you dont deny that spyyder)..even DR will expand significantly and thus wont be able to accomodate IR in it..
 
There is one more topic of great interest academically..

Will cardiac CT angiography which is done by RADIOLOGISTS ever replace diagnostic cardiac catheterisation...done by rads at some places..??

I think it has a role and will become more common place, but that role will likely remain limited. The legitimate reason is 1) you can't intervene on potential pathology during a CT. If your patient clearly is having a STEMI, or you have a large clinical index of suspicion for cardiac ischemia, might as well go straight to the procedure where you can both diagnose and stent them. The role of CTA in the heart will likely focus on cases where it is truly unclear if the patient is having heart pathology, where they would have gone for stress test anyway rather than cath.

The less legit reason is 2) the cards guys probably aren't going to take money out of their own pockets by doing fewer caths. They've tried interpreting cardiac CT themselves, but I think consensus is that it's just too sketchy as there is other stuff in the chest (or so my anatomy instructor said) other than the heart that they WILL miss, so rads will probably still dominate Heart CTA for liability reasons in the near future. Probably won't be done that much though.
 
hehe..

IR might branch out from DR like Rad onc..( I totally agree to this statement of yours spyyder)
But again even there most of the guys getting into training will mostly be from a radiology background..

Its such a big line that it needs its own specialists and radiology alone will not be able to accomodate such a huge line in itself..

"Will cardiac CT angiography which is done by RADIOLOGISTS ever replace diagnostic cardiac catheterisation"......No answers to this question as yet..

And with the advent of virtual imaging and molecular imaging, which will surely stay with the radiologists( i hope now you dont deny that spyyder)..even DR will expand significantly and thus wont be able to accomodate IR in it..

I think its too early to tell whether virtual imaging will catch on. I think one of big movements right now is the virtual colonoscopy. However general consensus is that even if you catch something on imaging you still have to do a colonoscopy to confirm. Doesn't really save money in the long run, other than save a few helpless souls from needless anal probing. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that new imaging procedures will replace older diagnostic methods, I won't deny that. I certainly can't predict the future. On the other hand perhaps more specialties will make imaging a core component of their training via residency or a 1-year fellowship. As we seek to reduce health care costs think about who is more likely to win an argument over imaging. The guy who can read just imaging, or the guy who can read, diagnose, and treat the patient within their field of expertise. As reimbursement drops, physician have 2 options, see more patients, or maximize the revenue from each of them. Given that many areas are becoming saturated with specialists I believe we are starting to see the latter trend already in effect.
 
As we seek to reduce health care costs...

As reimbursement drops... maximize the revenue from each of them [patients].

Your argument is difficult to follow; it would help if you stuck to one perspective. If we maximize revenue from each patient, and the number of patients does not drop, then it is highly unlikely that health care costs would be reduced.

So what exactly are you arguing? That getting rid of radiologists would reduce health care costs, or just increase income for other physicians? You'd have to put forward a strong argument to convince me that distributed imaging would be more efficient.
 
I think its too early to tell whether virtual imaging will catch on. I think one of big movements right now is the virtual colonoscopy. However general consensus is that even if you catch something on imaging you still have to do a colonoscopy to confirm. Doesn't really save money in the long run, other than save a few helpless souls from needless anal probing. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that new imaging procedures will replace older diagnostic methods, I won't deny that. I certainly can't predict the future. On the other hand perhaps more specialties will make imaging a core component of their training via residency or a 1-year fellowship. As we seek to reduce health care costs think about who is more likely to win an argument over imaging. The guy who can read just imaging, or the guy who can read, diagnose, and treat the patient within their field of expertise. As reimbursement drops, physician have 2 options, see more patients, or maximize the revenue from each of them. Given that many areas are becoming saturated with specialists I believe we are starting to see the latter trend already in effect.


Some neurologists experimented with doing 1 year neurorads fellowships a while ago. It failed for a number of reasons. Rads groups wouldn't hire them as very few have the volume to allow somebody to do exclusively neurorads. Neuro groups didn't hire as they are not set up to do full time imaging or have the daily volume of scans to justify it. Skills began to fall off and the neurologists began to feel uncomfortable again, as reading 3 studies a day does not a neuro-radiologist make.

Radiologists have always existed for a reason. Even in the pre-cross sectional days, there were radiologists around, annoying other doctors by being relatively well compensated. There are a million subtleties in reading even plain CXRs and KUBs that other docs not properly trained missed. (A vascular sling? Where?) We ain't going away any time soon.

That being said, salaries will likely drop substantially just because it's so easy for medicare to say, "We're cutting your salary. Good luck with that." And it's a bit much to count on technological advancement to keep creating new medically necessary tests to suppliment our income in my mind. I'd still so much rather be a radiologist for 200k than an IM doc it's not even funny though.
 
Agree with above. As far as reimbursement goes, I think it's a given that substantial fee cuts are coming (erm, continuing). Increased efficiency (i.e., increased volume) will help a bit, but that avenue has been highly tapped already in the past decade, and I don't think anyone really believes that "getting" to read even more studies in a day to maintain income is something to cheer over. Technology and new modalities will provide new studies that pay better. I think that's a given, but when and how much are completely unknown. Could be a decade or two before anything significant comes around, might be a few years. Might just be a lot of incremental improvements for many many years to come that help the ACR justify lobbying against fee cuts. In any case, this will contribute a little to offset the predicted cuts.

Technology, both in efficiency and new studies, will likely keep rads from seeing the "doomsday" paycuts some predict, but I doubt they'll maintain current levels for long. I think 50% would be the bottom end, and it's much more probable that total compensation will drop less than that. But as you said, at 200K rads is still a sweet gig compared to any other specialty at that pay.
 
hmmmm... true..

as I have always maintained, there is a reason why it is a speciality...

if the reimbursements go down, they will go down for all the fields..not just rads or surg..
so at the end of the day it doesnt make much of a difference...
 
But realistically speaking, how far down can reimbursements go? And also, what is the argument for them to take place in the first place? I mean, if anything, with radiology becoming so competitive and more overspecialized (which means more training required), I'd actually think that reimbursements should in fact increase.
 
But realistically speaking, how far down can reimbursements go? And also, what is the argument for them to take place in the first place? I mean, if anything, with radiology becoming so competitive and more overspecialized (which means more training required), I'd actually think that reimbursements should in fact increase.

Because supply and demand do not dictate the economics of medicine as is the case in most other industries, but rather a group of disconnected old men sitting on the hill. Well, they don't entirely dictate it either, but close enough.
 
what i think is that if the reimbursements will have to go down then they will go down for all the specialities..
However, these are those things that are not to be worried about as all the competitive specialites do have something or the other that is cutting edge and it would not affect to such an extent..

I just heard of a research that is about virtual coronary imaging..sounds really cool..
 
a lot of things have been discussed in the earlier replies in this thread..

just to add to it..Lets put on all the new and the latest inventions that have come up in the radiology, which might just help them be better prepared for tomorrow..

Hopefully they would also stick with the radiologists so that the others dont eat into them..

Just to start with as I stated in the earlier reply..

I heard about virtual coronary angioscopy..sounds cool..the technology is amazing..can be done via both CT as well as an MRI..I just pray if it ever comes in bigtime into the clinical practice... will definitely stay with the radiologist and never go away..

Any fresh opinions on that??
 
I think one of big movements right now is the virtual colonoscopy. However general consensus is that even if you catch something on imaging you still have to do a colonoscopy to confirm. Doesn't really save money in the long run, other than save a few helpless souls from needless anal probing.

Virtual colonoscopy will take off. Who wants a tube stuck up their ass? If you see something on virtual colonoscopy, then stick up a tube. Otherwise, no thanks. Oh yeah, stories like these make people want to get virtual colonoscopies too.

Colonoscopies have been suspended at the Miami Veterans Affairs hospital where thousands of veterans may have been exposed to hepatitis or HIV because equipment used in the procedures was not properly sanitized.​


Yeah, the same tube that got stuck up your ass is the same one that got stuck up thousands of people's asses.
 
Of course it's the prep that is by far the worst part of the colonoscopy, and virtual won't change that one bit. Seems people fear the scope, until they've actually had one and realize that is the easy part. Unscrupulous physicians can probably talk them into it though by playing on popular misconceptions. Besides, my understanding is that if something is found you'd still need the scope to take a bx. Why go through potentially two procedures with the awful prep both times, when you can do it once and be done with it?

Just not sure why people think this will become popular. Perforation risk if I understand correctly isn't that different either. Not that I'm against radiologists doing the procedure, and if people really want it then by all means line up! I just don't think I'd be one rushing to get in that line.
 
Of course it's the prep that is by far the worst part of the colonoscopy, and virtual won't change that one bit. Seems people fear the scope, until they've actually had one and realize that is the easy part.

...

Why go through potentially two procedures with the awful prep both times, when you can do it once and be done with it?

I've known 3 people close to me who have had regular colonoscopies. Both my parents and my gf. If the meds work, you won't remember. But if the meds don't work, it is quite uncomfortable and painful. Several people have mentioned to me that they remembered the entire encounter.

You're also assuming that in nearly every encounter you'll need to do biopsies. What if you only need to biopsy 1 in 10 patients? Then regular colonoscopies were unnecessary in 9 out of 10 cases. With a regular colonoscopy costing $3k while a virtual colonoscopy costing only $300, you can see why there will be a shift toward virtual colonoscopies. Insurance companies are taking a close look at this.

Perforation risk if I understand correctly isn't that different either.

Perf is a very real risk with regular colonscopies. It is 1 in 1000. It is obviously higher with regular colonscopies. Virtual colonoscopies can cause perf when you insufflate a thin and friable colon with air, but that would have happened with regular colonoscopy too.
 
Both the American College of Gastroenterology and the American Society of Gastrointestinal Endoscopy has expressed strong disinterest in the virtual colonoscopies and Medicare and so far sided with them.

CT colonography could detect 78% of polyps as small as 6 millimeters in diameter. Yet the scans caught only 65% of polyps 5 millimeters or smaller....Virtual colonoscopy has a 14% false-positive rate....it requires the same bowel prep (cleansing of the bowels) as a real colonoscopy.

Fairly strong arguments against the procedure, with little benefit.
 
With the shifiting trend towards organ specific imaging..is it the radiologist or the gastroenterologist who does these VCs..
 
I believe radiologists at the moment are required to either do the final read or over-read the series, though I could be mistaken.

And is it any wonder that GI docs don't support a technique that pays them much less than the current standard, especially if they have to share the fee with a radiologist reading the results? Not that their arguments are invalid, but I always look at who is saying something to know how to file it in my mind.
 
I think the bottom line is that virtual colonscopy's use for screening is controversial for the moment. On the one hand, its cheap and doesn't involve a tube up the arse which makes a big psychological difference to people (regardless how many celebrities get one on TV), but on the other hand, studies showing its efficacy have been mixed and it's non-therapeutic.

Bottom line, as GI docs control patients, colonoscopies will be the norm for now. If insurance companies get their hands on solid data showing VC to be just as good for screening though, it may change.

I am also in no way whatsoever worried about "organ specific imaging". Nothing to quite says "I'm comprimising my patient's health to make more money" like actually deleting potentially diagnostic data you already have in your hands because you won't be the one paid to interpret it. It won't fly. And imagine the first, let's say, endometrial cancer missed by a GI doc reading a virtual colonoscopy. There's more in the abdomen and pelvis on those CTAPs than just the colon folks.

I reiterate my prediction, we'll take a pay cut because there's nothing we can really do to hold it off in the long term. Sure, the ACR can lobby like hell, but its ultimately hard to justify 500k salaries for radiologists when when transplant surgeons make 300. I bet private practice salaries will probably settle to about that 300 level (just my gut talking, nothing else). Retina surgeons and derm Mohs surgeons both took a ~50% or so pay cut because uncle sam said though luck, I'm going to pay you less and you'll like it. I don't think there's that much we can do to fight if he wants to do the same to us. Physicians in general fought off a 10% pay cut a few years back by threatening to not work on medicare patients. The argument that they'd loose too much money on every medicare patient seemed to fly with the general public, and 160k for your FP with years and years of training sounds kinda reasonable. Radiologists refusing to work for less than 500k a year... well... that would not probably go over as well.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm more than open to ideas on how to fight against salary cuts though...
 
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A lot of the fellowship programs of the other superspecialities like cardiolog, even neurology now have started offering fellowships in Imaging..

So may be thats just the begining of the trend towards organ specific imaging..its really unethical and not cost effective at all..I agree to that..

Also, on the other post as we see, IR is going to be a brand new branch..

Well I suppose the problem will be that It wont be very competitive..as cardiologists and other people like neurosurgeons who do the vascular interventions will anyways grab away a lot of work from the IRs, just like they even currently do..

So many cards people do the peripheral vascular stenting..if this trend continues, then IRs are gonna have a real tough time i suppose..

Let me know any comments on that..
 
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