RadOnc Is Still The Best Field in Medicine

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(Going to repost this in this thread).




Whither Thou Goest, I Will Go
Paul E. Wallner, Stephen M. Hahn, MD, Anthony L. Zietman, MD

The title of this editorial is from Ruth I:16 (King James version of the Bible), and as with Ruth and Naomi, the disciplines of diagnostic radiology (DR) and radiation oncology (RO) were inexorably linked from their inceptions through the post–World War II era. In the late 1940s, Juan del Regato, MD, one of the early proponents of RO in the United States, corresponded with the American Board of Radiology (ABR) to request a separation of the disciplines within radiology; however, it was not until more than 3 decades later, in 1982, that the ABR administered its last general radiology examination. Qualifications for that examination required a minimum of 2 years of postgraduate training in DR and 1 year in therapeutic radiology (TR) (as it was known until 1987), or vice versa. It is important to note that the ABR did offer a certificate in TR when it initiated certification in 1934, but between 1934 and 1974, fewer than 20 certificates in TR were awarded in any given year, with most years seeing fewer than 10 being awarded (1). This is in contrast to the almost 200 RO certificates currently awarded annually by the ABR.

This issue of the journal is devoted to the incredible advances in RO enabled by adoption of increasingly sophisticated diagnostic imaging modalities. Unlike the early days of the introduction of equipment such as computed tomography (CT) simulators, which were often shared by the 2 disciplines, newer devices are more typically housed within the confines of the therapy department without immediate access to diagnostic colleagues and their input. Ironically, in the era that saw the introduction of CT, magnetic resonance imaging, highly selective interventional radiography, and computerized volumetric reconstruction of 2-dimensional imaging into the diagnostic armamentarium—as well as the very early exploration of the use of these modalities for therapy—the 2 disciplines were actually growing farther apart rather than becoming closer partners in clinical care.

The practice of RO is increasingly dependent on precise delineation of target versus nontarget tissues. At the same time, anatomic variations, patients with multiple comorbidities, many with imaging implications, and changes in motion and technique can cause significant alterations in image perception. We are increasingly concerned that training in image analysis, as is currently performed in many RO programs, is insufficient for present and future excellence in the practice of RO.

Before 1993, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) had a single residency review committee responsible for both DR and RO. Requirements for diagnostic imaging training in the RO program requirements, as promulgated by that final joint committee, specified only “access to diagnostic radiology,” without further details regarding actual curriculum content (2). Since 1993, accreditation of training programs and specification of program requirements for RO became the responsibility of the RO review committee. Some of this committee’s requirements, such as the precise number of new patients, simulations, and pediatric patients that each trainee must see before completing accredited training and becoming eligible for initial ABR certification in RO, have been prescribed specifically. By contrast, program requirements for training in all aspects of diagnostic imaging have no such specificity, indicating only that “the program must educate resident physicians in adult medical oncology, pediatric medical oncology, oncologic pathology, and diagnostic imaging in a way that is applicable to the practice of radiation oncology,” and that “there are multiple ways to meet this requirement,” including to “provide . . . a one-month rotation in both oncologic pathology and diagnostic imaging. . . ” (3). Practicing radiation oncologists routinely rely on pathology reports and must understand the elements and nuances of these reports, but many will rarely review actual pathology specimens for patient care decision making. Alternatively, information obtained from diagnostic imaging procedures is, by definition, integral to the routine daily practice of image-guided radiation therapy and all other RO procedures, except for clinical placement of cutaneous applicators.

The ABR is progressively adding additional image-related questions to its qualifying (computer-based) examinations in clinical oncology, including definition of normal and pathologic anatomy and appropriateness of provided treatment contours. As has always been the case, the certifying (oral) examinations are case management based, with an emphasis on image evaluation for usefulness in decision making regarding extent of disease, treatment planning, and follow-up. Over many exam administration cycles, it has become apparent that poor performance in both sets of examinations is often related to a lack of adequate knowledge in interpretation of the provided images, poor understanding of the added or diminished value of additional images and/or studies, and an inability to recognize differences in how images and disease processes are visualized based on technical alterations of the images employed for decision making. This concern has been previously noted (4).

In the absence of a formal ACGME-mandated curriculum for education in imaging for RO trainees, and with a clear understanding of the essential need for this knowledge set, the ABR plans to continue to add suitable imaging content to its RO qualifying and certifying examinations and the maintenance of certification online longitudinal assessment tool currently under development, with an anticipated rollout in 2020. In effect the ABR, through changing the examination, is, of necessity, forcing a change in curriculum. That being the case, we believe it is reasonable for appropriate stakeholders to develop a basic curriculum in the imaging education and skills necessary for radiation oncologists. The additional curriculum content could be provided in a variety of ways: (1) Requirements could be met by institutionally or departmentally established conferences, rotations, and/or didactic programming that would include all elements of the curriculum. (2) Regional teaching programs that would provide elements of the curriculum less likely to be available in smaller program-sponsoring institutions could be developed through shared resources. (3) “Crash courses” or “boot camps” could be established in centralized locations to provide some or all curriculum elements. This model has been tested for RO trainees in Canada with significant success (5). A similar model has been employed in the United States since the early 1960s to train DR residents in various aspects of their specialty not always easily available in their host institutions. Initially, these courses were provided at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, but following a reduction in federal funding for the institute’s programs, the course venue was shifted to the American College of Radiology through the American Institute for Radiologic Pathology. More than 20,000 DR residents have received training in the pathologic-radiographic imaging aspects of their discipline in this manner (6, 7).

Any of the approaches noted above could be undertaken by individual programs or groups of programs without ACGME-accredited program implications or external approvals. Other, more innovative programming, such as a side-by-side DR/RO oncologic imaging rotation with a shared core curriculum, could also be developed for cross-fertilization in both disciplines and offered in the postgraduate year 2 or 3 years. Even more intriguing would be to consider the more distant future of our specialty and try to imagine what the needs of our patients might be in the 2030s and 40s. No clinical specialty can be frozen in time; all experience evolutionary change, enlarging, branching, or shrinking. Interventional cardiology now eclipses cardiac surgery, a formerly dominant surgical specialty. Dermatology has evolved into a cosmetic as well as a clinical medical specialty. Primary care has demonstrated a progressive decline over the past several decades. It seems likely, if not inevitable, that some degree of merging between RO and other imaging and/or oncology-based specialties will, over time, evolve. This merging will not be a “top-down” revolution led by the ACGME, ABR, or the Society of Chairs of Academic Radiation Oncology Programs but rather a “bottom-up” revolution led by larger, more flexible programs, which will develop creative pilot approaches. The less creative or impractical pilots will wither, while those that fill a real need will thrive and propagate, to be later adopted into the mainstream. These changes could begin with cross-discipline fellowships, such as brachytherapy for interventional radiologists, interventional radiology for ROs, or nuclear medicine or cross-sectional scanning for ROs. These would not bring full certification but would allow practitioners to widen their practice and “diversify their portfolios.” Prostate brachytherapists, for example, might practice better if they could insert their own fiducial markers and spacers, offer additional energy-delivery treatments such as high-intensity focused ultrasound or cryosurgery, and biopsy the glands to assess response. Cross-fellowships would represent a “blurring of the edges” between specialties and a recognition that contemporary practice takes place in disease-focused cancer centers rather than “siloed” departments.

True hybrid programs blending DR and RO training from the outset have also been proposed. RO clinical training can now be completed in 27 months, as on the Holman Research Pathway. It may thus be possible to couple this abbreviated training with perhaps 16 months of nuclear medicine, or the 3-year DR core training, the latter being “thinned out” to reduce nononcologic work. It will be for individual institutions to define the program details and make proposals, but careful coordination with the ACGME and ABR will be essential to ensure that all requirements for program accreditation by the ACGME are met and that all requirements for initial certification eligibility by the ABR are fulfilled. Overall training would, of necessity, be longer than that for nonhybrid specialists, and it is likely that initially this will be a path chosen by few but with the potential for future growth.

Many RO programs have 6 or fewer residents, and we recognize that these suggestions may represent a challenge to many departments; some might even see them as an existential threat. Additional time devoted to image-based training may, realistically, require a reduction in time commitments to other elements of the program, entail time away from RO clinical responsibilities, likely produce a need for some time away from host programs, necessitate dialogue and rapprochement with our DR colleagues, and, potentially, add some cost to host departments. In an era of reliance on image guidance for RO, how can we not accept these modest burdens? A question beyond the scope of this editorial, but of intense current discussion and consideration, is how advances in artificial intelligence might affect any of these issues, and indeed, the clinical practices of RO and DR. A recent conference sponsored by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine suggested that greater collaboration would also benefit DR trainees and providers (8). As did Ruth and Naomi, we must once again walk together.

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Better know radiographical anatomy at a diagnostic radiology level unless you want to fail clinical writtens is what I'm reading from that editorial...
 
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Better know radiographical anatomy at a diagnostic radiology level unless you want to fail clinical writtens is what I'm reading from that editorial...
As a radiation oncologist in 2018, you should certainly know how to evaluate diagnostic radiology. This is an image rich specialty - where you need to interpret images and identify normal and abnormal anatomy so that you can contour out target volumes and protect organs at risk. You most certainly should be able to understand imaging anatomy. And adding this to the exam is more relevant today than ever. Remember in the 1980's and 90s, we didn't even have CAT scans. This is trending with the time.
How could you conceivably be a good radiation oncologist if you don't know your anatomy? Curious.....seriously. Do you really think you do your patients good service if you don't know how to treat them correctly.

And by the way, the oral boards has always had a heavy diagnostic component - ie interpreting films, scans etc. Adding this to the writtens only strengthens the exam. And they are usually easy if you know your anatomy......so less minutia questions.
 
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Oral boards do not have image interpretation. Image interpretation is a systematic process. At RadOnc, we are only shown representative CT cuts to try guess where the most obvious abnormality is.

As a radiation oncologist in 2018, you should certainly know how to evaluate diagnostic radiology. This is an image rich specialty - where you need to interpret images and identify normal and abnormal anatomy so that you can contour out target volumes and protect organs at risk. You most certainly should be able to understand imaging anatomy. And adding this to the exam is more relevant today than ever. Remember in the 1980's and 90s, we didn't even have CAT scans. This is trending with the time.
How could you conceivably be a good radiation oncologist if you don't know your anatomy? Curious.....seriously. Do you really think you do your patients good service if you don't know how to treat them correctly.

And by the way, the oral boards has always had a heavy diagnostic component - ie interpreting films, scans etc. Adding this to the writtens only strengthens the exam. And they are usually easy if you know your anatomy......so less minutia questions.
 
Oral boards do not have image interpretation. Image interpretation is a systematic process. At RadOnc, we are only shown representative CT cuts to try guess where the most obvious abnormality is.
I'm trying to remember my GU section but iirc a decade ago, Sandler was going through some prostate/pelvic MRI images and pimping me on anatomy before we started a case
 
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As a radiation oncologist in 2018, you should certainly know how to evaluate diagnostic radiology. This is an image rich specialty - where you need to interpret images and identify normal and abnormal anatomy so that you can contour out target volumes and protect organs at risk. You most certainly should be able to understand imaging anatomy. And adding this to the exam is more relevant today than ever. Remember in the 1980's and 90s, we didn't even have CAT scans. This is trending with the time.
How could you conceivably be a good radiation oncologist if you don't know your anatomy? Curious.....seriously. Do you really think you do your patients good service if you don't know how to treat them correctly.

And by the way, the oral boards has always had a heavy diagnostic component - ie interpreting films, scans etc. Adding this to the writtens only strengthens the exam. And they are usually easy if you know your anatomy......so less minutia questions.

I'm not saying that I'm not good at radiographical anatomy. I know how to use it in the functional equivalent of contours. Given that questions need to be discerning between residents of various quality (meaning that they can't be basic questions that everybody will get right), however, I fully expect that the diagnostic radiology questions are going to be like "Which arrows point to the foramen ovale, lacerum, and/or rotundum" on this CT or MRI. Not functional stuff like "which shaded area is level II in a head and neck volume", but nitpicky stuff is what I expect.
 
(Going to repost this in this thread).


Whither Thou Goest, I Will Go
Paul E. Wallner, Stephen M. Hahn, MD, Anthony L. Zietman, MD

The title of this editorial is from Ruth I:16 (King James version of the Bible), and as with Ruth and Naomi, the disciplines of diagnostic radiology (DR) and radiation oncology (RO) were inexorably linked from their inceptions through the post–World War II era. In the late 1940s, Juan del Regato, MD, one of the early proponents of RO in the United States, corresponded with the American Board of Radiology (ABR) to request a separation of the disciplines within radiology; however, it was not until more than 3 decades later, in 1982, that the ABR administered its last general radiology examination. Qualifications for that examination required a minimum of 2 years of postgraduate training in DR and 1 year in therapeutic radiology (TR) (as it was known until 1987), or vice versa. It is important to note that the ABR did offer a certificate in TR when it initiated certification in 1934, but between 1934 and 1974, fewer than 20 certificates in TR were awarded in any given year, with most years seeing fewer than 10 being awarded (1). This is in contrast to the almost 200 RO certificates currently awarded annually by the ABR.

This issue of the journal is devoted to the incredible advances in RO enabled by adoption of increasingly sophisticated diagnostic imaging modalities. Unlike the early days of the introduction of equipment such as computed tomography (CT) simulators, which were often shared by the 2 disciplines, newer devices are more typically housed within the confines of the therapy department without immediate access to diagnostic colleagues and their input. Ironically, in the era that saw the introduction of CT, magnetic resonance imaging, highly selective interventional radiography, and computerized volumetric reconstruction of 2-dimensional imaging into the diagnostic armamentarium—as well as the very early exploration of the use of these modalities for therapy—the 2 disciplines were actually growing farther apart rather than becoming closer partners in clinical care.

The practice of RO is increasingly dependent on precise delineation of target versus nontarget tissues. At the same time, anatomic variations, patients with multiple comorbidities, many with imaging implications, and changes in motion and technique can cause significant alterations in image perception. We are increasingly concerned that training in image analysis, as is currently performed in many RO programs, is insufficient for present and future excellence in the practice of RO.

Before 1993, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) had a single residency review committee responsible for both DR and RO. Requirements for diagnostic imaging training in the RO program requirements, as promulgated by that final joint committee, specified only “access to diagnostic radiology,” without further details regarding actual curriculum content (2). Since 1993, accreditation of training programs and specification of program requirements for RO became the responsibility of the RO review committee. Some of this committee’s requirements, such as the precise number of new patients, simulations, and pediatric patients that each trainee must see before completing accredited training and becoming eligible for initial ABR certification in RO, have been prescribed specifically. By contrast, program requirements for training in all aspects of diagnostic imaging have no such specificity, indicating only that “the program must educate resident physicians in adult medical oncology, pediatric medical oncology, oncologic pathology, and diagnostic imaging in a way that is applicable to the practice of radiation oncology,” and that “there are multiple ways to meet this requirement,” including to “provide . . . a one-month rotation in both oncologic pathology and diagnostic imaging. . . ” (3). Practicing radiation oncologists routinely rely on pathology reports and must understand the elements and nuances of these reports, but many will rarely review actual pathology specimens for patient care decision making. Alternatively, information obtained from diagnostic imaging procedures is, by definition, integral to the routine daily practice of image-guided radiation therapy and all other RO procedures, except for clinical placement of cutaneous applicators.

The ABR is progressively adding additional image-related questions to its qualifying (computer-based) examinations in clinical oncology, including definition of normal and pathologic anatomy and appropriateness of provided treatment contours. As has always been the case, the certifying (oral) examinations are case management based, with an emphasis on image evaluation for usefulness in decision making regarding extent of disease, treatment planning, and follow-up. Over many exam administration cycles, it has become apparent that poor performance in both sets of examinations is often related to a lack of adequate knowledge in interpretation of the provided images, poor understanding of the added or diminished value of additional images and/or studies, and an inability to recognize differences in how images and disease processes are visualized based on technical alterations of the images employed for decision making. This concern has been previously noted (4).

In the absence of a formal ACGME-mandated curriculum for education in imaging for RO trainees, and with a clear understanding of the essential need for this knowledge set, the ABR plans to continue to add suitable imaging content to its RO qualifying and certifying examinations and the maintenance of certification online longitudinal assessment tool currently under development, with an anticipated rollout in 2020. In effect the ABR, through changing the examination, is, of necessity, forcing a change in curriculum. That being the case, we believe it is reasonable for appropriate stakeholders to develop a basic curriculum in the imaging education and skills necessary for radiation oncologists. The additional curriculum content could be provided in a variety of ways: (1) Requirements could be met by institutionally or departmentally established conferences, rotations, and/or didactic programming that would include all elements of the curriculum. (2) Regional teaching programs that would provide elements of the curriculum less likely to be available in smaller program-sponsoring institutions could be developed through shared resources. (3) “Crash courses” or “boot camps” could be established in centralized locations to provide some or all curriculum elements. This model has been tested for RO trainees in Canada with significant success (5). A similar model has been employed in the United States since the early 1960s to train DR residents in various aspects of their specialty not always easily available in their host institutions. Initially, these courses were provided at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, but following a reduction in federal funding for the institute’s programs, the course venue was shifted to the American College of Radiology through the American Institute for Radiologic Pathology. More than 20,000 DR residents have received training in the pathologic-radiographic imaging aspects of their discipline in this manner (6, 7).

Any of the approaches noted above could be undertaken by individual programs or groups of programs without ACGME-accredited program implications or external approvals. Other, more innovative programming, such as a side-by-side DR/RO oncologic imaging rotation with a shared core curriculum, could also be developed for cross-fertilization in both disciplines and offered in the postgraduate year 2 or 3 years. Even more intriguing would be to consider the more distant future of our specialty and try to imagine what the needs of our patients might be in the 2030s and 40s. No clinical specialty can be frozen in time; all experience evolutionary change, enlarging, branching, or shrinking. Interventional cardiology now eclipses cardiac surgery, a formerly dominant surgical specialty. Dermatology has evolved into a cosmetic as well as a clinical medical specialty. Primary care has demonstrated a progressive decline over the past several decades. It seems likely, if not inevitable, that some degree of merging between RO and other imaging and/or oncology-based specialties will, over time, evolve. This merging will not be a “top-down” revolution led by the ACGME, ABR, or the Society of Chairs of Academic Radiation Oncology Programs but rather a “bottom-up” revolution led by larger, more flexible programs, which will develop creative pilot approaches. The less creative or impractical pilots will wither, while those that fill a real need will thrive and propagate, to be later adopted into the mainstream. These changes could begin with cross-discipline fellowships, such as brachytherapy for interventional radiologists, interventional radiology for ROs, or nuclear medicine or cross-sectional scanning for ROs. These would not bring full certification but would allow practitioners to widen their practice and “diversify their portfolios.” Prostate brachytherapists, for example, might practice better if they could insert their own fiducial markers and spacers, offer additional energy-delivery treatments such as high-intensity focused ultrasound or cryosurgery, and biopsy the glands to assess response. Cross-fellowships would represent a “blurring of the edges” between specialties and a recognition that contemporary practice takes place in disease-focused cancer centers rather than “siloed” departments.

True hybrid programs blending DR and RO training from the outset have also been proposed. RO clinical training can now be completed in 27 months, as on the Holman Research Pathway. It may thus be possible to couple this abbreviated training with perhaps 16 months of nuclear medicine, or the 3-year DR core training, the latter being “thinned out” to reduce nononcologic work. It will be for individual institutions to define the program details and make proposals, but careful coordination with the ACGME and ABR will be essential to ensure that all requirements for program accreditation by the ACGME are met and that all requirements for initial certification eligibility by the ABR are fulfilled. Overall training would, of necessity, be longer than that for nonhybrid specialists, and it is likely that initially this will be a path chosen by few but with the potential for future growth.

Many RO programs have 6 or fewer residents, and we recognize that these suggestions may represent a challenge to many departments; some might even see them as an existential threat. Additional time devoted to image-based training may, realistically, require a reduction in time commitments to other elements of the program, entail time away from RO clinical responsibilities, likely produce a need for some time away from host programs, necessitate dialogue and rapprochement with our DR colleagues, and, potentially, add some cost to host departments. In an era of reliance on image guidance for RO, how can we not accept these modest burdens? A question beyond the scope of this editorial, but of intense current discussion and consideration, is how advances in artificial intelligence might affect any of these issues, and indeed, the clinical practices of RO and DR. A recent conference sponsored by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine suggested that greater collaboration would also benefit DR trainees and providers (8). As did Ruth and Naomi, we must once again walk together.

The better question isn’t what RO can merge with but rather the willingness of the other specialty to allow this type of merger to happen. In this scenario I think we need to be honest about who really needs who. DR and Med Onc would be just fine without allowing RO residents cross train with them. But can the opposite really be said? I view the above statement more as an admission that there’s really nowhere left to go in RO as a field. More imaging training? That’s it? So what’s the plan...hook up with a DR program and have ROs do that for 1-2years take an exam but oh btw you’ll never be able to interpret studies and form a differential that would be useful to a clinician...great. Or better yet link up with an IR program so you can learn to place fiducials for a year or two and then get out in practice and realize that community IR practices aren’t exactly thrilled about having you take their work away.

I have a better idea rather than let this identity crisis carry on any longer. They should just make RO a fellowship for medical oncologists to pursue. Make it 3 years and call it a day. Let’s drop the garbage about adequacy of imaging because even though it’s important I don’t see it justifying any kind of merger.
 
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Totally agree with the post above by fpg. Editorial rational for fellowships/training is pretextual but that is ok; as a specialty we need to address a major existential threat.

My take on this editorial is that it says we need to expand our skills beyond EBRT and get rid of some smaller programs, so that future residents can find work given the impending oversupply/hypofractionation/bundling changes etc that will substantially reduce need for radoncs. While it would make sense for fellowships to involve medical oncology, practically it would be easier to do something with radiology as we are part of the same board. We will just justify it by saying radonc needs more cross sectional image training that cant be taught in a 3-6 month rotation through body radiology.

I think the editorial is in some ways an acknowledgement that we are facing specialty specific major challenges and legitimizes some of the alarmist sentiment on these boards. It is a real discredit to all those who feel everything is totally fine.

BTW, I am pretty sure Steve Hahn is one of the radiation oncologists who is also board certified in medical oncology!
 
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Oral boards do not have image interpretation. Image interpretation is a systematic process. At RadOnc, we are only shown representative CT cuts to try guess where the most obvious abnormality is.
I most certainly had to point out normal chest anatomy. Ken Rosenzweig pulled up several chest CT slices and asked me to identify certain structures. I was not reading diagnostically but certainly had to know radiograohic imaging well enough to identify anatomy.
 
Totally agree with the post above by fpg. Editorial rational for fellowships/training is pretextual but that is ok; as a specialty we need to address a major existential threat.

My take on this editorial is that it says we need to expand our skills beyond EBRT and get rid of some smaller programs, so that future residents can find work given the impending oversupply/hypofractionation/bundling changes etc that will substantially reduce need for radoncs. While it would make sense for fellowships to involve medical oncology, practically it would be easier to do something with radiology as we are part of the same board. We will just justify it by saying radonc needs more cross sectional image training that cant be taught in a 3-6 month rotation through body radiology.

I think the editorial is in some ways an acknowledgement that we are facing specialty specific major challenges and legitimizes some of the alarmist sentiment on these boards. It is a real discredit to all those who feel everything is totally fine.

BTW, I am pretty sure Steve Hahn is one of the radiation oncologists who is also board certified in medical oncology!

There's already a precedence in the rest of the world for radoncs to also give systemic treatment. Neuro-oncologists can give chemo after a quick fellowship, so I don't see any reason why we couldn't as well. As systemic treatment moves away from incredibly toxic chemotherapies, frankly the need for a strong internal medicine background is fading.

In addition, we keep hearing about not having enough medical oncologists, so this would help solve two problems.

It's always been ridiculous for the ABR to administer our boards, and it makes little sense for us to look towards IR/diagnostic rads rather than medical oncology if we want to expand what we do, simply because they happen to continue to be our certification board.
 
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There's already a precedence in the rest of the world for radoncs to also give systemic treatment. Neuro-oncologists can give chemo after a quick fellowship, so I don't see any reason why we couldn't as well. As systemic treatment moves away from incredibly toxic chemotherapies, frankly the need for a strong internal medicine background is fading.

In addition, we keep hearing about not having enough medical oncologists, so this would help solve two problems.

It's always been ridiculous for the ABR to administer our boards, and it makes little sense for us to look towards IR/diagnostic rads rather than medical oncology if we want to expand what we do, simply because they happen to continue to be our certification board.

same is true for gyn-onc (and they give heavy chemos). How much chemo training do they get during that surgically intensive fellowship?
 
No one has conspired to stack the deck against you. The scoring system has not changed in decades. It is certainly possible that the program directors who developed the criterion reference this year overestimated how their residents would do. Unfortunately this can’t just be undone. Kachnic and Wallner has no part of this process. The exam is not made by them.

Take some time to understand how it is composed. I, like many other write items for a specific test section. We write fair questions - some are hard - to assess your knowledge. Each site has a committee and the group reviews all questions and identifies the best of the questions written. We write new questions every year. The chair then takes the questions to the exam committee and they identify how many questions each site has to contribute. These are decided by the disease chairs. Then a separate group evaluates each question using Angoff methokodoly. I criterion reference (pass rate) is determined by a group of experts - usually PDs.

As you can see Kachnic and Wallner are not as involved as you think on conspiring to harm you. They are honest decent people whom YOU don’t know and are very dedicated to residents. Lisa has done more to help ease MOC. To say you have evidence that she is dishonest or corrupt is opinion, not backed by evidence. Professionalism has nothing to do with stifling dissent. It has to do with acting ina reasonable behavior and having dialogue but it accusing people of being out to get you.

I certified almost 15 years ago taking physics biology, and clinical at one time, the orals and decertified. I very much support residents and help to write completely fair questions....as do most exam writers.

It’s unfortunate you clearly didn’t pass. The world doesn’t end. You retry and likely you’ll pass the next time. It won’t stop you from getting a job. Life will move on. But there is no need to say the ABR consoired against small programs. I know of many residents in large program who also failed. And indint see all of them throwing tantrums and rants against specific individuals.

It is clear to me that you are involved with the ABR, likely at a high level. I don't know what else to say other than I disagree completely with everything you have written here. I understand how the exam is composed based on the limited information your organization has been willing to disclose. It appears subject to enormous bias. The repeated use of the term "criterion-referenced" is pseudo-scientific woo. It's a buzzword that makes it sound more rigorous than it really is. It's insulting.

The way that Kachnic and Wallner have tried to play victim in all of this is pretty pathetic. As I've said before, it is a classic bully tactic (since the ABR likes referencing wikipedia). They are honest decent people because YOU say so? Who are you? I don't know Kachnic or Wallner. I just know how they have communicated with us and what they have published. It's not a good look. While Wallner may be on his way out, Kachnic has really made her name infamous with the current generation of rad onc residents with the way they have patronized us. Good work.

My belief that the ABR has conspired against small programs is based on a lot, really.
- They published an incendiary article just prior to the exam lashing out against quality of residents and teaching at small programs defined as <6 residents (curiously, this number is repeated over and over again by them) with literally no evidence to support such assertions.
- They broke down the results from the exam by program size, again focusing on programs with <6 residents
- The publication of the radiation biology task force by Wallner a few years ago, again going after instruction at small programs based on nothing
- The fact that around 40-45% of residents this year (by conservative estimates) failed at least one section of the physics/bio exam when this number has been consistently around 10% FOR THE PAST 12 YEARS IN A ROW.
- The fact that ABR behaved overly defensively when accused of quality control issues with their exam, refusing to admit that it was even possible they could have made an inconsistent test, then decided to hint at it being due to problems at smaller programs in emails, which escalated to a ridiculous statement to residents and program directors at ASTRO.
- The fact that Kachnic referenced the potential of larger programs to have an advantage through recalls (cheating) then shrugged it off.
- The ongoing refusal of the ABR to provide more detailed exam statistics when requested. The have spun the limited data they have released so far, and even then it's incredibly damming. Yeah, that's not what a corrupt organization does at all, right? And there is absolutely no transparency or way to prove anything that they are telling us is true. We are supposed to trust these people?
- The refusal to provide even the most basic accommodation or request of a helping hand to my class, such as separating the exams by a month so you're not setting half of us up for a repeat failure. You have a contract with PearsonVUE you can't get out of? It costs $300 per question to make the exam? You can't afford to offer the exam any other time. I'm sorry but **REDACTED BY MODS**
- The absolutely outrageous notion that you have defined minimal competence to PRACTICE AS A RADIATION ONCOLOGIST as knowing that Rho is the GTPase controlled by mTORC2 (not the actual question, but close enough that you get my point -- you made 40% of the test this irrelevant nonsense). Yes, large programs have more PhDs, they have more 270 step1 kids that overstudy for everything, and they have more CHEATERS using recalls. Yes, you absolutely stacked the deck against us. And yes, we are pissed about it. **REDACTED BY MODS**
 
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There's already a precedence in the rest of the world for radoncs to also give systemic treatment. Neuro-oncologists can give chemo after a quick fellowship, so I don't see any reason why we couldn't as well. As systemic treatment moves away from incredibly toxic chemotherapies, frankly the need for a strong internal medicine background is fading.

In addition, we keep hearing about not having enough medical oncologists, so this would help solve two problems.

It's always been ridiculous for the ABR to administer our boards, and it makes little sense for us to look towards IR/diagnostic rads rather than medical oncology if we want to expand what we do, simply because they happen to continue to be our certification board.
What does it matter who gives your boards. The ABR has historically been our board organization - based on where rad onc came from. It's not cost effective to have a "American Board of Radiation Oncology" - think about all the administrative overhead that is lumped together with radiology. Radiation Oncology boards are written and produced by radiation oncologists, not radiologists......using the ABR is no big deal, and is an established credible body.
 
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Totally agree with the post above by fpg. Editorial rational for fellowships/training is pretextual but that is ok; as a specialty we need to address a major existential threat.

My take on this editorial is that it says we need to expand our skills beyond EBRT and get rid of some smaller programs, so that future residents can find work given the impending oversupply/hypofractionation/bundling changes etc that will substantially reduce need for radoncs. While it would make sense for fellowships to involve medical oncology, practically it would be easier to do something with radiology as we are part of the same board. We will just justify it by saying radonc needs more cross sectional image training that cant be taught in a 3-6 month rotation through body radiology.

I think the editorial is in some ways an acknowledgement that we are facing specialty specific major challenges and legitimizes some of the alarmist sentiment on these boards. It is a real discredit to all those who feel everything is totally fine.

BTW, I am pretty sure Steve Hahn is one of the radiation oncologists who is also board certified in medical oncology!
I think they are saying that our field is not stagnant - just as we came into existence, we need to keep our skill sets broad, so that we can expand services as needed. Example - think about the VTach data w/ SBRT. Outside of what we do, but the data is interesting, and we'll probably start doing this. Remember cardiac brachy (probably not) - but had we had some interventional training, perhaps we would have done the procedure start to finish, rather than just being a "technician" that comes in to administer the radiation dose.
I'm not worried about small programs....just that small programs need to think outside the box - ie away rotations, more collaborations. Inherently less resources than large hospitals.....so they want to encourage us to think broadly about how we would achieve changes.

AFP course - used to be attended by all radiology residents nationally.
 
It is clear to me that you are involved with the ABR, likely at a high level. I don't know what else to say other than I disagree completely with everything you have written here. I understand how the exam is composed based on the limited information your organization has been willing to disclose. It appears subject to enormous bias. The repeated use of the term "criterion-referenced" is pseudo-scientific woo. It's a buzzword that makes it sound more rigorous than it really is. It's insulting.

The way that Kachnic and Wallner have tried to play victim in all of this is pretty pathetic. As I've said before, it is a classic bully tactic (since the ABR likes referencing wikipedia). They are honest decent people because YOU say so? Who are you? I don't know Kachnic or Wallner. I just know how they have communicated with us and what they have published. It's not a good look. While Wallner may be on his way out, Kachnic has really made her name infamous with the current generation of rad onc residents with the way they have patronized us. Good work.

My belief that the ABR has conspired against small programs is based on a lot, really.
- They published an incendiary article just prior to the exam lashing out against quality of residents and teaching at small programs defined as <6 residents (curiously, this number is repeated over and over again by them) with literally no evidence to support such assertions.
- They broke down the results from the exam by program size, again focusing on programs with <6 residents
- The publication of the radiation biology task force by Wallner a few years ago, again going after instruction at small programs based on nothing
- The fact that around 40-45% of residents this year (by conservative estimates) failed at least one section of the physics/bio exam when this number has been consistently around 10% FOR THE PAST 12 YEARS IN A ROW.
- The fact that ABR behaved overly defensively when accused of quality control issues with their exam, refusing to admit that it was even possible they could have made an inconsistent test, then decided to hint at it being due to problems at smaller programs in emails, which escalated to a ridiculous statement to residents and program directors at ASTRO.
- The fact that Kachnic referenced the potential of larger programs to have an advantage through recalls (cheating) then shrugged it off.
- The ongoing refusal of the ABR to provide more detailed exam statistics when requested. The have spun the limited data they have released so far, and even then it's incredibly damming. Yeah, that's not what a corrupt organization does at all, right? And there is absolutely no transparency or way to prove anything that they are telling us is true. We are supposed to trust these people?
- The refusal to provide even the most basic accommodation or request of a helping hand to my class, such as separating the exams by a month so you're not setting half of us up for a repeat failure. You have a contract with PearsonVUE you can't get out of? It costs $300 per question to make the exam? You can't afford to offer the exam any other time. I'm sorry but BULL---T.
- The absolutely outrageous notion that you have defined minimal competence to PRACTICE AS A RADIATION ONCOLOGIST as knowing that Rho is the GTPase controlled by mTORC2 (not the actual question, but close enough that you get my point -- you made 40% of the test this irrelevant nonsense). Yes, large programs have more PhDs, they have more 270 step1 kids that overstudy for everything, and they have more CHEATERS using recalls. Yes, you absolutely stacked the deck against us. And yes, we are pissed about it. You and your "professionalism" paternalistic bullcrap can take a hike.
So - I am just a volunteer at the board...I'm a question writer. Not high up.
I know Lisa personally - I trained with her many years ago. One of the most dedicated attending a resident could ever have. She is a huge supporter of residents and used her time at the board to foster many changes to improve the exam process. Stop attacking her and calling her corrupt....since you clearly don't know her. Paul is also decent. Their just the bogeymen of your anger, because you want to pin blame on someone. Remember the exam is written by hundreds of people....this is not a one person event.

Criterion reference, while you may not like it, exists amongst all board exams, and many other things outside of medicine. Driving tests, US citizenship, etc are all examples of criterion reference standard tests. You wouldn't want someone who doesn't know what street signs mean to be driving, would you? It's validated. Yes there are some parts that sound crazy....but it's not supposed to be a curved exam. The idea is to identify a minimum threshold for passing. No one is covering up anything. The ABR is trying to look at the data to see if they can figure out why we had such a strange year.

I agree large programs probably do have recalls - that's an advantage. But those PDs have said they do not tolerate. But they can't stop residents from doing that. It's unfortunate.

Its not 40-50% failing. And not passing, doesn't mean you can't sit again. Yes more failed this year, but there are many possible reasons, including new people who were involved (PDs) in the criterion reference standard setting. The published rates were just over 70%. If your combining people to get the 40-50%, then you need to do the same when the pass rates were 90%. It's not that 10% failed, but maybe double that. Agree, it's disconcerting to see a change when there shouldn't have been one, but there are new people and they may have overestimated what their residents knew.

As for taking all 3 in one day, stop complaining. This was the standard years ago. You can't earn sympathy on this from those of us who studied hard for 3 sections and passed all 3 in one sitting. There is no curve, so your not disadvantaged. You just need to hit the minimum threshold to pass. Makes no difference if the guy/gal next to you only has one test. He/she may score higher than you but a pass is a pass. You need to show a minimum knowledge to pass - knowledge you should have to be practicing. So what disadvantage is there?

As for corruption....where is your evidence of corruption? Is anyone stealing money or purposely trying to make you fail a very well validated process? Did you ask the DMV to provide their data when you failed your driving test? Is that data available anywhere about how they set their standard.

I can't say much about the Pearson Vue contracts.....from what I understand, there are significant costs to develop a new exam - which the ABR was not prepared to do, as we have just started this cycle of exam question submission. Having Pearson administer the test is quite expensive from what I hear. Perhaps in the future, the ABR will consider for RO, but those would then have to pay even higher fees.....and it's usually small numbers of people.

You made some reference to a question. Yes that info is probably non-sense....but you should be aware that the tests are loaded with many "test" questions that are not actually scored - and used for developmental purposes to see if the question would be good in the future. The majority of the test has many questions you don't remember because they are basic knowledge, and plain.

Finally, medicine is about professionalism. Leaders in our fields have been terminated from employment agreements for lack of professional behavior - ie yelling at a nurse or an administrator. I am not hiding behind anything. I'm asking you to do this in a civil way. There is no reason you can't raise concern about something being fair or valid. But we don't need to take the low road. It's very easy to have civil discourse and debate the issue. But you chose to turn this into a shouting match. There is no conspiracy here against you or anyone. This is an honest process and clearly this year was an anomaly. Do anomalies happen - sure.....and rarely....hence anomalies. No one at the ABR said this year, let's increase the fail rate. It just didn't happen.
 
Nothing more professional than presiding over an "anomaly" that injured a bunch of people and responding, "tough ****."
 
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What does it matter who gives your boards. The ABR has historically been our board organization - based on where rad onc came from. It's not cost effective to have a "American Board of Radiation Oncology" - think about all the administrative overhead that is lumped together with radiology. Radiation Oncology boards are written and produced by radiation oncologists, not radiologists......using the ABR is no big deal, and is an established credible body.

If the ABR had been doing their job effectively, then I agree, no big deal to keep using them. However, they did not.

It matters because it's clear to more or less everyone that the ABR screwed up the exam this year, and rather than issuing a mea culpa about their "anomaly" they decided to double down and throw small programs under the bus. You keep railing on and on about professionalism. Well, I don't consider it professional to change the contents of an exam without letting anyone know (rad bio), let alone for an exam that's worthless for practicing radiation oncologists. I don't consider it professional to complain that, when an organization you decided to lead makes a mistake, you get heat for it. What did they expect? Why take a leadership position if you can't deal with the responsibility that comes with it?

It also matters because the suggestion that we do IR/DR training rather than medonc training doesn't make sense, given how we all practice day-in and day-out. Maybe that suggestion didn't have anything to do with the ABR being involved, but I doubt it.
 
It is quite funny to see the ABR sent a higher up to post in the forums.
We need to scrap and leave the ABR involvement in our field. I dont care how many “decent” people it has. if we are to meet the challenges of our field moving forward, we cannot be radiologists but ONCOLOGISTS. This will need ability to give more systemic therapies and own our patients rather than continuing to be bottom dwellers who need referrals.
 
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Full stop. Lisa is a class act and Paul is decent. Cyberrad is too. So they're all great in my book. Stop being unprofessional.
 
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Full stop. Lisa is a class act and Paul is decent. Cyberrad is too. So they're all great in my book. Stop being unprofessional.
Is this sarcasm? No one's being unprofessional. Also, no one cares if "Lisa" and "Paul" are class acts, decent, always thank their barista, etc. They care that, under their watch, the ABR had significant problems with a board exam. Full stop.
 
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Is this sarcasm? No one's being unprofessional. Also, no one cares if "Lisa" and "Paul" are class acts, decent, always thank their barista, etc. They care that, under their watch, the ABR had significant problems with a board exam. Full stop.

Cyberrad knows Lisa personally. He trained with her years ago. Full stop. That's a tough argument to beat.

Oh and Paul's decent too. That's also a tough argument to beat. Stop being unprofessional.
 
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Knowing “Lisa” and “Paul” is like how Trump speaks of “chuck” and “Nancy”. I am sure they are “class acts” “decent” people and certainly not “bad hombres”. Im moving beyong talking about them individually and just keeping things impersonal. I think the ABR is a corrupt organization that is run by class act individuals. Unfurtunately it does not have our best interests in mind and the future of the field is not bright if we continue to be radiologists. This is such a bad plan. We need to be ONCOLOGISTS. this is however a tougher path to take rather than the much easier ABR Path. i guess this is the warning shot that they are coming for the writtens next. Small programs will not know radiology!
 
If the ABR had been doing their job effectively, then I agree, no big deal to keep using them. However, they did not.

It matters because it's clear to more or less everyone that the ABR screwed up the exam this year, and rather than issuing a mea culpa about their "anomaly" they decided to double down and throw small programs under the bus. You keep railing on and on about professionalism. Well, I don't consider it professional to change the contents of an exam without letting anyone know (rad bio), let alone for an exam that's worthless for practicing radiation oncologists. I don't consider it professional to complain that, when an organization you decided to lead makes a mistake, you get heat for it. What did they expect? Why take a leadership position if you can't deal with the responsibility that comes with it?

It also matters because the suggestion that we do IR/DR training rather than medonc training doesn't make sense, given how we all practice day-in and day-out. Maybe that suggestion didn't have anything to do with the ABR being involved, but I doubt it.
The ABR is certainly doing their job effectively. They created exam content with a stable pool of exam writers, and used their standard scoring system.

There was no substantial change in the contents of the exam from what I have gleaned, and I believe a substantial amount of questions had either been used previously as exam items or as test questions for which they have prior examinee data on how the questions faired.

They certainly can and should take heat, but to call the organization corrupt, or characterize people like Lisa Kachnic who are more pro-resident than you are as one who wants to screw residents is not appropriate. That is unprofessional. Complain about the process. She is a voice, however, that individuals here have laid very inaccurate and untruthful comments about her.

That ABR article I feel was meant to be thought provoking and provocative. I don't believe they are advocating for us taking over other specialities, but to be properly trained to cross lines when modalities and opportunities come our way where there may me multiple specialites who might want the business - ie orthos and neurosurgeons doing spine. This is not the message any of us are getting from the ABR or ASTRO.
 
Cyberrad - you're continued insistence that "you know paul and/or lisa, and they're good people, the best people" and that people who have been wronged by the ABR are not allowed to complain about the ABR on an anonymous internet forum because it's unprofessional will continue to fall on deaf ears. You're certainly welcome to continue expending energy to try and convince people that the test was not flawed, if you'd like.

However, I believe that you are unable to see this from an unbiased perspective, because you have a conflict of interest, as LK is a friend of yours or whatever. Those who are upset with ABR don't know these leaders personally and have been wronged by the board that PW and LK lead. So yes, maybe it's frustration in general but the fact that people do not like the leader of the ABR. You continuing to parrot the 'unprofessional' line is not going to make people on this forum (including the mods) start to silence those who disagree with you and the rest of the ABR.
 
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It is quite funny to see the ABR sent a higher up to post in the forums.
We need to scrap and leave the ABR involvement in our field. I dont care how many “decent” people it has. if we are to meet the challenges of our field moving forward, we cannot be radiologists but ONCOLOGISTS. This will need ability to give more systemic therapies and own our patients rather than continuing to be bottom dwellers who need referrals.
It's funny that you consider me a higher up. I'm an item writer. I do not speak for the ABR. There are hundreds of us who volunteer hours each year to make the process fair and believe in the mission. This is our specialties' way of self regulating (trust me government regulation would be far worse) and making sure our physicians are safe to the public. There have been plenty of high profile rad onc errors that we have had to police. Board certification is the pinnace of you proving you are highly knowledgable in our field. As much as we all have hated doing it, I'm sure most would tell you the process was a good way of synthesizing all the information. We also know it's the best way to prove we can do the business. Maybe it's hazing in a way, but we need a way to be sure those who practice with the distinction of board certification are acutally highly qualified.

So what is your proposal to scrap the ABR. Last I checked, our exam is in radiation oncology, different than the radiology exam. It's written by board certified community and academic practitioners from all around the country. Who would then create the next generation of exams. Should we let the inmates write their own exam that they could then easily pass? That would really provide satisfaction to patients. No.....you'll have the same dedicated people writing questions who want to protect and preserve our specialty. And then we'd hire statisticians to tell us how to grade it.....and they would use the same metrics other important exams use - likely criterion referencing to develop a minimum threshold to prove competence.

I'm sure most of us certified by the ABR would look unfavorably on an alternative board certification when it came to hiring, as we would have no clue as to the validity of the results.

As for giving systemic therapies.....that's a whole other ball of wax. But is your office set up as an infusion suite to give these drugs? Do you have the staff trained in putting in IVs or administering these meds? If your staff all ACLS certified? Do you want to be called at 3AM when a patient is vomiting in their house or admitted to the hospital. Lots of things have to be solved before I would take that risk in my office.

PS - How satisfied have you been with the ACR in service exam? You can see when a poor exam is written you get even more ridiculous questions.
 
Cyberrad - you're continued insistence that "you know paul and/or lisa, and they're good people, the best people" and that people who have been wronged by the ABR are not allowed to complain about the ABR on an anonymous internet forum because it's unprofessional will continue to fall on deaf ears. You're certainly welcome to continue expending energy to try and convince people that the test was not flawed, if you'd like.

However, I believe that you are unable to see this from an unbiased perspective, because you have a conflict of interest, as LK is a friend of yours or whatever. Those who are upset with ABR don't know these leaders personally and have been wronged by the board that PW and LK lead. So yes, maybe it's frustration in general but the fact that people do not like the leader of the ABR. You continuing to parrot the 'unprofessional' line is not going to make people on this forum (including the mods) start to silence those who disagree with you and the rest of the ABR.
I love how you say wronged by the board. Has the board given you an option to correct your score with a retake, sure. It may not be at your requested timing, but you aren't wronged. You will ultimately pass.

I have no conflict of interest. I trained a long time ago with Lisa - I know her to be a decent human being, who deeply cares about residents. You do not know her, so she is an 'evil-doer' to you. The cause of your failure on the test has nothing to do with anything Lisa has done here. Let's be honest at that.

There is no reason to character assassinate. Sure complain that the exam was hard and the grading was even harder. Let's vent frustration that the ABR should be more responsive to better study guides, tailoring the exam to current practices, etc. But do it in a respectful courteous manner. Otherwise, we start to look like the DEMS and GOP and nothing will happen. You can only fix problems with proper dialogue. People ignore you when your rude and act like a 3 year old who's had his/her cotton candy taken away.
 
So you have compared us to “inmates” and “children who had candy taken away”. I guess Bob Craft, Jerry Jones and Bob Mcnair must have taken over the ABR?

there are absolutely ways to move forward and grow the spectrum of our field but this cannot be done with the ABR. “Decent” people or not.
 
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ABR Discussion: "He guys, the rad oncs are discussing splitting away from the ABR and forming their own boards. I know, lets tie them closer to radiology so they have no choice but to stay. In fact, while we're at it, let's just turn radiologists into radiation oncologists by merging them. Radiologists love money. Radiologists can draw circles. Medical oncologists can make all treatment related decisions and manage all side effects, like they do with IR. It's perfect."
 
To start off, I didn't fail the board exam - I didn't even take it this year. Just so you know that I, personally, do not have an axe to grind with the ABR in this regard. I think the ABR has really messed up though. In previous years, they changed the passing standard to make pass rates standard, this was admitted to as much in the ADROP meeting with LK. However, ABR refuses to do that this year. Why they refuse is debatable, and KHE88 has some thoughts on the matter which, while having some evidence to support the position, may be a bit of an extrapolation.

Your continued insistence that LK is "good people, the best people" is because you were a co-resident with her and you volunteer for the ABR, of which she is your leader. It'd be like me saying that my chairman is the best person if anybody ever cared to consider him. You are unable to have an unbiased perspective on her because of the personal and workplace connection that you have with her.

To take a test that had a 10-20 (at max)% failure rate and turn it into a 30-65 (at max)% failure rate in one year I think is the definition of somebody being 'wronged'. The fact that failure rates were 4+ standard deviations higher than what they are annually is the definition of somebody being wronged. The fact that a 2018 study guide for rad bio (and we should really stop calling it that and call it CANCER bio instead because clearly that's what the discerning test questions are now) was not released, that the content of the test was changed (as this amount of discussion on cancer bio random stuff was not had in previous years) along with the pass rate.... I'd consider the people who failed it wronged. The passing standard for physics was made the highest it's ever been... potentially to correlate it so that the percentage of failures was equivalent in physics and cancer bio. If the failure rates were the SAME as they had historically been and people had this same vitriol (which they wouldn't) then I wouldn't think that ABR wronged them.

I think our definitions of character assassination are wildly different. Saying that the leader of the ABR is to blame for the actions of the ABR, to me, is not character assassination. This is nothing like DEMS vs GOP. ABR has 100% of the power here, and the rest of the field (including both resident and attending radiation oncologists) does not. Despite what anybody says on this forum in their frustration, PW and LK are not likely to lose their jobs. ABR has a monopoly on certification for Rad Onc residents, and whatever decisions they make are what rad onc residents have to live with. That doesn't mean they have to be happy or blindly support the leadership of the ABR, who they feel is wronging them.
 
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I think they are saying that our field is not stagnant - just as we came into existence, we need to keep our skill sets broad, so that we can expand services as needed. Example - think about the VTach data w/ SBRT. Outside of what we do, but the data is interesting, and we'll probably start doing this. Remember cardiac brachy (probably not) - but had we had some interventional training, perhaps we would have done the procedure start to finish, rather than just being a "technician" that comes in to administer the radiation dose.
I'm not worried about small programs....just that small programs need to think outside the box - ie away rotations, more collaborations. Inherently less resources than large hospitals.....so they want to encourage us to think broadly about how we would achieve changes.

AFP course - used to be attended by all radiology residents nationally.
Obviously, the timing here has nothing to do with oversupply of radiation oncologists and hypofractionation, which according to you has zero effect on the job market. You dont think this has anything to do with expanding our practice to accommodate the excess of radonc trainees/double the amount in 10 years? Thats right, supply and demand dont affect salaries or chances of finding a job. Thats why medical students should have no concern about future employment in the field.
 
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It's funny that you consider me a higher up. I'm an item writer. I do not speak for the ABR. There are hundreds of us who volunteer hours each year to make the process fair and believe in the mission. This is our specialties' way of self regulating (trust me government regulation would be far worse) and making sure our physicians are safe to the public. There have been plenty of high profile rad onc errors that we have had to police. Board certification is the pinnace of you proving you are highly knowledgable in our field. As much as we all have hated doing it, I'm sure most would tell you the process was a good way of synthesizing all the information. We also know it's the best way to prove we can do the business. Maybe it's hazing in a way, but we need a way to be sure those who practice with the distinction of board certification are acutally highly qualified.

So what is your proposal to scrap the ABR. Last I checked, our exam is in radiation oncology, different than the radiology exam. It's written by board certified community and academic practitioners from all around the country. Who would then create the next generation of exams. Should we let the inmates write their own exam that they could then easily pass? That would really provide satisfaction to patients. No.....you'll have the same dedicated people writing questions who want to protect and preserve our specialty. And then we'd hire statisticians to tell us how to grade it.....and they would use the same metrics other important exams use - likely criterion referencing to develop a minimum threshold to prove competence.

I'm sure most of us certified by the ABR would look unfavorably on an alternative board certification when it came to hiring, as we would have no clue as to the validity of the results.

As for giving systemic therapies.....that's a whole other ball of wax. But is your office set up as an infusion suite to give these drugs? Do you have the staff trained in putting in IVs or administering these meds? If your staff all ACLS certified? Do you want to be called at 3AM when a patient is vomiting in their house or admitted to the hospital. Lots of things have to be solved before I would take that risk in my office.

PS - How satisfied have you been with the ACR in service exam? You can see when a poor exam is written you get even more ridiculous questions.

Now you want a proposal? Ok, here's a proposal:
- Create our own certifying society. We are our own specialty and deserve to be treated as one.
- Scrap the biology written exam entirely. I can't think of another single specialty which requires a "biology" exam as a part of their boards. Do the neurologists have to take neurobiology boards? Of course not. The very idea of a biology board exam is ridiculous.
- Scrap the physics exam and incorporate the questions into the clinical written exam. Same rationale. Any physics needed to be known to be a good radonc can be tested on the written section.
- Maintain a good, comprehensive clinical written exam, to be taken either the final year of residency or the year following. I don't care which.
- Scrap the oral exam. The ABIM scrapped their oral boards after very good data showed the only variable determining whether or not someone passed was which examiner they had. I'm sure all those Harvard residents who were failed by a particular MDA radonc for choosing HDR brachytherapy for cervical cancer years ago would agree.
- Use NBPAS recertifying criteria instead of ABMS.
- Use the society to push for the inclusion of systemic tx delivery either in residency or as a one-year post-residency fellowship. Require an internal medicine internship to do this if you feel like that's necessary. I don't. (My office has an infusion suite, staff to deliver chemotherapeutics, we're all ACLS certified, I give all my patients my cell phone, and I'm willing to take on the risk.)

One more note:
I think the perception among many on this board is that you were sent here specifically to try and address complaints about the test. It seems to us you're doing that by acting in bad faith and trying to shut down criticism about the ABR and the boards entirely by conflating it with a few posts which did go too far and attack Drs. Kachnik and Wallner personally. This isn't fair to the vast majority of posts, which have very articulately and diligently laid out the problems with the test. This would have been bad enough, but then you went even further and compared very hard-working, intelligent, compassionate residents to toddlers and inmates. You're doing more to harm the reputation of the ABR than help at this point.
 
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Take note, medical students. If you enter this field, you are entering prison. Straight from the horse's mouth. This sentiment is common among educators in our field.

It's funny that you consider me a higher up. I'm an item writer. I do not speak for the ABR. There are hundreds of us who volunteer hours each year to make the process fair and believe in the mission. This is our specialties' way of self regulating (trust me government regulation would be far worse) and making sure our physicians are safe to the public. There have been plenty of high profile rad onc errors that we have had to police. Board certification is the pinnace of you proving you are highly knowledgable in our field. As much as we all have hated doing it, I'm sure most would tell you the process was a good way of synthesizing all the information. We also know it's the best way to prove we can do the business. Maybe it's hazing in a way, but we need a way to be sure those who practice with the distinction of board certification are acutally highly qualified.

So what is your proposal to scrap the ABR. Last I checked, our exam is in radiation oncology, different than the radiology exam. It's written by board certified community and academic practitioners from all around the country. Who would then create the next generation of exams. Should we let the inmates write their own exam that they could then easily pass? That would really provide satisfaction to patients. No.....you'll have the same dedicated people writing questions who want to protect and preserve our specialty. And then we'd hire statisticians to tell us how to grade it.....and they would use the same metrics other important exams use - likely criterion referencing to develop a minimum threshold to prove competence.

I'm sure most of us certified by the ABR would look unfavorably on an alternative board certification when it came to hiring, as we would have no clue as to the validity of the results.

As for giving systemic therapies.....that's a whole other ball of wax. But is your office set up as an infusion suite to give these drugs? Do you have the staff trained in putting in IVs or administering these meds? If your staff all ACLS certified? Do you want to be called at 3AM when a patient is vomiting in their house or admitted to the hospital. Lots of things have to be solved before I would take that risk in my office.

PS - How satisfied have you been with the ACR in service exam? You can see when a poor exam is written you get even more ridiculous questions.
 
IMO, it is not entirely honest for an ABR item writer to be called a volunteer. I believe there is a nice annual retreat to go over questions, paid for the ABR.
 
It's not cost effective to have a "American Board of Radiation Oncology".
Pretty sure the people paying the costs get to decide the cost effectiveness of something. My best guess is we could increase the cost effectiveness by doing away with 4 superfluous board exams. Indeed, I question the cost effectiveness of making 200+ rad oncs fly to Louisville and rent hotels each year.
 
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ABR Discussion: "He guys, the rad oncs are discussing splitting away from the ABR and forming their own boards. I know, lets tie them closer to radiology so they have no choice but to stay. In fact, while we're at it, let's just turn radiologists into radiation oncologists by merging them. Radiologists love money. Radiologists can draw circles. Medical oncologists can make all treatment related decisions and manage all side effects, like they do with IR. It's perfect."

No more trips to a nice pacific island to write test questions as they “volunteer”
 
Pretty sure the people paying the costs get to decide the cost effectiveness of something. My best guess is we could increase the cost effectiveness by doing away with 4 superfluous board exams. Indeed, I question the cost effectiveness of making 200+ rad oncs fly to Louisville and rent hotels each year.

ABIM got rid of orals and so have most specialties even our overloards over at DR. Why can’t we?
 
I have to keep it honest and acknowledge volunteerism. While I am not a supporter of the board, personally, there is no way a trip to a tropical island to meet up and go over ABR questions would be enough "motivation," if I was not inclined to be involved (and I am not). I strongly believe the field needs to orient towards onoclogy not diagnostic or ir and if we need another board to do this, so be it.

What I find misleading about the editorial: Only a limited amount of cross sectional training/time is needed to identify normal anatomy, or the presence of masses/tumors (which often are readily apparent on pet, contrast, or accompanied by "arrow signs"), most of which I assume is provided in radonc resident training and there is no need for a "boot camp." Recognizing/Screening pathology in the general population and its variants is the hard part in diagnostic rads, but why would a radonc need to recognize appendicitis or a fatty liver etc unless you wanted to take on expand your practice. For the most part, patients come to us with a diagnosis of malignancy. Thats why I view this editorial has a hidden agenda to address the future job situation, and I am in full support of that.

I trained before ct sims were common and I dont think there are many normal structures on CT that I could not identify in the human body save obscure muscles.
 
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Recognizing/Screening pathology in the general population and its variants is the hard part in diagnostic rads, but why would a radonc need to recognize appendicitis or a fatty liver etc unless you wanted to take on expand your practice. For the most part, patients come to us with a diagnosis of malignancy. That's why I view this editorial has a hidden agenda to address the future job situation, and I am in full support of that.

I see it more as... let's make rad onc a fellowship that follows a radiology residency to secure the future job market for radiologists.

After all, rad oncs aren't oncologists anyway. They can't even pass a test about cancer biology.
 
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I see it more as... let's make rad onc a fellowship that follows a radiology residency to secure the future job market for radiologists.

After all, rad oncs aren't oncologists anyway. They can't even pass a test about cancer biology.

Yes and this will remain the “solution” as long as we remain diplolamates of a radiology board. We will always come second and solutions will benefit the majority of their members (DR AND IR)
 
My advice is to consider what type of patients you think you want to work with, long term. The fields you are listing are VERY different in that regard. Also, what type of work hours do you like?

Sorry to bump an old thread but I don't come on here very much and wanted to thank you for your measured and thoughtful response. Definitely gives me good things to think about.
 
No more trips to a nice pacific island to write test questions as they “volunteer”
I am an ABR item writer, test aggregator (meaning I have participated in the Angoff process) and oral examiner on multiple occasions over the past 2 decades. I will not comment on the larger question but wanted to correct the assumption that item writer's go to tropical islands. Not true.
Most item writers never leave home to volunteer. A subset of these people travel to Tempe (yippee!) to assemble the questions; sometimes other join by conference call. This is a 2-3 day process with about 8 hours a day inside ABR HQ. This is time away from family and work that is not paid for. Travel and accommodations are paid for by the ABR. At oral examinations travel and accomodations are paid for and there is a daily food stipend which is roughly 50$ day. The Board members and trustees do travel to an annual retreat (I know that this is in a nice location) but frequently meet in Tempe as well.
 
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Obviously, the timing here has nothing to do with oversupply of radiation oncologists and hypofractionation, which according to you has zero effect on the job market. You dont think this has anything to do with expanding our practice to accommodate the excess of radonc trainees/double the amount in 10 years? Thats right, supply and demand dont affect salaries or chances of finding a job. Thats why medical students should have no concern about future employment in the field.
Realities are the APM (which may become mandatory as proposed by Azar - and you probably have no clue what an APM is) will have a bigger impact. However, we're always expanding our armentarium. Hypofractionation has been going on for years - APBI is a prime example - we've been doing that for 15 years. Yet breast cancer volumes actually have expanded....many who refused a 6 week course, especially older patients where benefits are less, have actually pursued this strategy to reduce risk in a short time course. COMET trial will explode SBRT use - proven PFS and OS benefit with IOs....which we have already begun to see materialize. My practice has changed a lot in 15 years, and we are constantly evolving. I expect we'll be part of the core group using SBRT for VTach.....according to my EP folks there is a huge market there, that are poor candidates for ablative procedures.
 
Pretty sure the people paying the costs get to decide the cost effectiveness of something. My best guess is we could increase the cost effectiveness by doing away with 4 superfluous board exams. Indeed, I question the cost effectiveness of making 200+ rad oncs fly to Louisville and rent hotels each year.
Well...Louisville is no longer used. Now it's Tuscon. Oral exams in my opinion are a much better assessment of skills as its more objective and allows you to explain your reasoning, which can't happen on a multiple choice exam. These really become discussions of cases, which are the best way to really assess competency and whether or not you really are crazy or always thinking safety. Perhaps in 5-10 years we'll have a system of centers where you can go and have a live video-conferenced feed. I'm certainly for harnessing technology. And I agree the cost of going somewhere is expensive. At least the written exams are now local. I had to take mine and spend 3 days in Tampa.

I'm not one to question the value of biology or physics......I thought some of that was over the top as well. But I do think you need to understand these things to a reasonable degree - I routinely use my physics training when working on plans, as the dosimetrists, don't always know best. I do also use biology in SBRT, especially with re-irradiation. My neurosurgeon colleagues who do these cases always questions why can't they just do X.....they have no idea of the biology and that actually becomes important. You should note, the biology and physics used to be half day exams each of >200 questions. Now they are 2 hours of 100 questions.....so that has been dialed back. I'd personally love to see them remain, but clearly for only testing truly practical concepts that one would really need to understand to be a competent provider.

You'll never increase cost effectiveness making a separate board. Think of all the overhead of admin staff, test developers etc. We are indeed a small specialty - like 120 grads a year. We are a droplet compared to the number of dianogstic radiology candidates. Sharing a board with a common history allows us to share that overhead which costs real dollars. We can use the same infrastructure for MOC, exam development, etc, at a fraction of the cost as if we were on our own. Economies of scale. And the beauty is, rad onc tests and programs are all designed by rad oncs.....it would be the same people - PDs, chairman, and community physicians who are already involved.
 
I have to keep it honest and acknowledge volunteerism. While I am not a supporter of the board, personally, there is no way a trip to a tropical island to meet up and go over ABR questions would be enough "motivation," if I was not inclined to be involved (and I am not). I strongly believe the field needs to orient towards onoclogy not diagnostic or ir and if we need another board to do this, so be it.

What I find misleading about the editorial: Only a limited amount of cross sectional training/time is needed to identify normal anatomy, or the presence of masses/tumors (which often are readily apparent on pet, contrast, or accompanied by "arrow signs"), most of which I assume is provided in radonc resident training and there is no need for a "boot camp." Recognizing/Screening pathology in the general population and its variants is the hard part in diagnostic rads, but why would a radonc need to recognize appendicitis or a fatty liver etc unless you wanted to take on expand your practice. For the most part, patients come to us with a diagnosis of malignancy. Thats why I view this editorial has a hidden agenda to address the future job situation, and I am in full support of that.

I trained before ct sims were common and I dont think there are many normal structures on CT that I could not identify in the human body save obscure muscles.
A. I have never been to a tropical island with the ABR. I do most of my stuff via webex sitting in my office.
B. I believe that occurred early in the 2000s and ended
C. I think that was totally inappropriate to do such
 
IMO, it is not entirely honest for an ABR item writer to be called a volunteer. I believe there is a nice annual retreat to go over questions, paid for the ABR.
Nope.....item writers submit required number of questions. After all submitted we review in numerous webex conference calls - usually 3 per exam cycle. No retreat. The disease site chairs meet in Tuscon to pick the final questions.
 
IMO, it is not entirely honest for an ABR item writer to be called a volunteer. I believe there is a nice annual retreat to go over questions, paid for the ABR.
And there is absolutely no compensation, and we all participate in MOC.
 
Now you want a proposal? Ok, here's a proposal:
- Create our own certifying society. We are our own specialty and deserve to be treated as one.
- Scrap the biology written exam entirely. I can't think of another single specialty which requires a "biology" exam as a part of their boards. Do the neurologists have to take neurobiology boards? Of course not. The very idea of a biology board exam is ridiculous.
- Scrap the physics exam and incorporate the questions into the clinical written exam. Same rationale. Any physics needed to be known to be a good radonc can be tested on the written section.
- Maintain a good, comprehensive clinical written exam, to be taken either the final year of residency or the year following. I don't care which.
- Scrap the oral exam. The ABIM scrapped their oral boards after very good data showed the only variable determining whether or not someone passed was which examiner they had. I'm sure all those Harvard residents who were failed by a particular MDA radonc for choosing HDR brachytherapy for cervical cancer years ago would agree.
- Use NBPAS recertifying criteria instead of ABMS.
- Use the society to push for the inclusion of systemic tx delivery either in residency or as a one-year post-residency fellowship. Require an internal medicine internship to do this if you feel like that's necessary. I don't. (My office has an infusion suite, staff to deliver chemotherapeutics, we're all ACLS certified, I give all my patients my cell phone, and I'm willing to take on the risk.)

One more note:
I think the perception among many on this board is that you were sent here specifically to try and address complaints about the test. It seems to us you're doing that by acting in bad faith and trying to shut down criticism about the ABR and the boards entirely by conflating it with a few posts which did go too far and attack Drs. Kachnik and Wallner personally. This isn't fair to the vast majority of posts, which have very articulately and diligently laid out the problems with the test. This would have been bad enough, but then you went even further and compared very hard-working, intelligent, compassionate residents to toddlers and inmates. You're doing more to harm the reputation of the ABR than help at this point.
I'm not sent by the board. I don't do their battles. I just think they do have a practical utility. I know what the government would do to us if we were not regulated, and that is far worse. I deal with them everyday. You are in practice (from what it sounds) and know things like MACRA, etc are no good - that's the government one size fits all solution I do think the attacks against certain individuals was unwarranted. I never started the prison comparison. I think we do need dialogue - but that is better to be launched in a controlled manner through ARRO, ASTRO and the ABR than random posts here, some from people who are not even stakeholders in our field. Constructive working groups can have the most impact.

I do appreciate you acknowledged that some posts did go to far in attacking Kachnic and Wallner.

I do appreciate you have good ideas about making the writtens more practical. I do disagree about orals - I actually thought that exam proved that I know what I am doing. And it gave me the latititue to explain my rationale. Writtens certainly less so - but that's the standard in everything in life.

I'd encourage you to volunteer as well - you will see you have more power to influence from within, that from out here on this message board. You will also see there are many dedicated people at the ABR and in the volunteers who want to make this process better and practical. You can NOT fix the problem if you are not engaged.

My motivations for volunteering at ABR is to help make changes. My exam questions are incredibly practical and would be questions I would hope any practicing rad onc could knock out of the park. I don't believe in minutae nor do many of us. Majority of questions most don't remember (if they even try to recall - which you should not) because they were just so plain and practical. Many of my peers who are newer writers agree.....and that's where the changes come from. We were once examinees and realize the flaws and hope incremental changes continue to move to the current times.
 
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