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Re: cheating - I can't help but think that when so many people were accused, that there may have been something lost in translation. I guess I'm very much willing to give benefit of doubt until we hear more... I know we had both open note and closed book take home tests in vet school, and we had at least one instance where the whole class worked together on it (thinking open book) and then the professor was a little peeved to hear that because he had meant for it to be individual (just wasn't specific). Or maybe that's totally wrong and I just don't want to think poorly of so many future colleagues. :shrug:

LetItSnow said:
Linkie?
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https://www.facebook.com/VetGirlOnTheRun/?fref=ts second post down.

edit: oh, and I actually went to read the comments and there is an OSU student saying exactly my thoughts above. Hmm.

second edit to add that Paul Pion has a lovely response to the topic on VIN that touches both on not jumping to conclusions and not judging the whole generation, I'd quote if that were kosher.
 
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Trilt said:
edit: oh, and I actually went to read the comments and there is an OSU student saying exactly my thoughts above. Hmm.
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We may never know if it was a miscommunication or not. Though you would think a group of veterinary students would be intelligent enough to ask for clarity on a take home test if something was not clear to them instead of just assuming they can do what they feel (at least this is how I am understanding things happened based on that student's post, but, again, we weren't there). That aside, that student is not responding or acting professionally and her continued responses in that thread, just further dug the hole she was already digging even deeper.
 
DVMDream said:
We may never know if it was a miscommunication or not. Though you would think a group of veterinary students would be intelligent enough to ask for clarity on a take home test if something was not clear to them instead of just assuming they can do what they feel (at least this is how I am understanding things happened based on that student's post, but, again, we weren't there). That aside, that student is not responding or acting professionally and her continued responses in that thread, just further dug the hole she was already digging even deeper.
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I only read the top comments so have no idea how professionally she is responding. I think VetGirl's post was not particularly professional - "#fail"? - to begin with and can understand some frustration from the student.
 
Trilt said:
I only read the top comments so have no idea how professionally she is responding. I think VetGirl's post was not particularly professional - "#fail"? - to begin with and can understand some frustration from the student.
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Personally I find hashtags to be the most obnoxious, unprofessional thing ever. But that is just my own opinion. I hate the use of hashtags, ever, regardless of if it is a professional post, personal post, funny post, etc, etc, they should just die in a fire.

But one person maybe posting a bit "unprofessionally" does not equal that you respond in like. The whole thing turned into a bit of a spat, with the student just not knowing when to stop and getting awfully close to excusing cheating behavior. Sometimes, the best thing to do is to just not respond and let things work out how they are going to work out.
 
I mean, my undergrad TRIED to be strict on cheating, though you could see it didn't work... And one thing that was echoed is if there was a take home test--in my experience it was usually essays provided as part of a larger exam we took in class--you were only to use your books, notes, and self. I never had any doubts about collaboration, because it was stated in the syllabi of several other classes that collaboration of any kind was a violation. I had other classes that was give us take home quizzes to prepare for the test and they would always explicitly tell us we could work together or not... Why you'd think that was okay with a large exam...??? Maybe that's the change that needs to be made.

Also, re: students reply. When practitioners are starting to say "please don't apply at my clinic" it's time to stop. I really don't think this is something any current students should be commenting on if they were involved or not. I've seen OSU students on this very forum anonymously say they weren't really allowed to say much, so why would you do it with your name attached in front of potential hiring vets?
 
We had lots of collaborative quizzes and tests throughout the years. The instance I mentioned earlier was either in clin path or medicine (can't recall), but some big course with lots of sections taught by different profs. It was a situation where the last couple professors had been a-OK with quizzes as a group and then the new one wasn't, but never explicitly stated that. It wasn't a big deal when it came to light because they realized it was a genuine mistake, but we weren't intelligent enough to ask.

I absolutely think that if there were 85 people that explicitly disobeyed the rules that they should be punished. But I tend to give some really strong benefit of the doubt to future colleagues... I don't think I have 85 classmates who would cheat on purpose, so I don't feel like another vet school would, either. And I'd rather be proven wrong with that than to start out cynical.
 
Trilt said:
We had lots of collaborative quizzes and tests throughout the years. The instance I mentioned earlier was either in clin path or medicine (can't recall), but some big course with lots of sections taught by different profs. It was a situation where the last couple professors had been a-OK with quizzes as a group and then the new one wasn't, but never explicitly stated that. It wasn't a big deal when it came to light because they realized it was a genuine mistake, but we weren't intelligent enough to ask.

I absolutely think that if there were 85 people that explicitly disobeyed the rules that they should be punished. But I tend to give some really strong benefit of the doubt to future colleagues... I don't think I have 85 classmates who would cheat on purpose, so I don't feel like another vet school would, either. And I'd rather be proven wrong with that than to start out cynical.
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There is giving the benefit of the doubt and then there is the fact that the school decided there was blame to be had and handed out punishment. I would hope that the school would not simply decide this without reason. I agree here that students should always ask about the allowance of collaboration in today's take home exam environment and never assume it to be the rule. I never liked it anyway because there are usually a couple people that do the work and others simply copy.

We have so many students in classes these days that I completely understand trying to take advantage of the digital age and make students lives somewhat less stressful by allowing take home and open book, but it certainly opens the door for those people with weaker standards.
 
Lupin21 said:
There is giving the benefit of the doubt and then there is the fact that the school decided there was blame to be had and handed out punishment. I would hope that the school would not simply decide this without reason. I agree here that students should always ask about the allowance of collaboration in today's take home exam environment and never assume it to be the rule. I never liked it anyway because there are usually a couple people that do the work and others simply copy.

We have so many students in classes these days that I completely understand trying to take advantage of the digital age and make students lives somewhat less stressful by allowing take home and open book, but it certainly opens the door for those people with weaker standards.
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I suppose, but I could still very much see a situation where the students were under a different impression than the professor, but since it still fell under an honor code violation there were punishments. It would be very saddening to me if 85 people in a class deliberately cheated. Literally over half of the class.

And eh, I personally quite like open book/take home exams because if they're written well, it is more thinking and analytical work vs. spewing information quickly stuffed in the brain for a test. Not many times as a vet that I won't be able to crack a book open and double check things, it's the application that is important. Same reason I like essays or projects more than straight examinations - I get better depth of knowledge and it usually actually sticks. Takes longer but is much more enjoyable than study study study regurgitate.

I also pretty rarely did take home things collaboratively (when allowed) because I'm a big fan of my comfy couch and doing work at roughly 2am, which doesn't usually sit well with others. 😛
 
Trilt said:
I also pretty rarely did take home things collaboratively (when allowed) because I'm a big fan of my comfy couch and doing work at roughly 2am, which doesn't usually sit well with others. 😛
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In PJ's with snacks and drinks. You can't forget the snacks and drinks. 😉
 
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Trilt said:
I suppose, but I could still very much see a situation where the students were under a different impression than the professor, but since it still fell under an honor code violation there were punishments. It would be very saddening to me if 85 people in a class deliberately cheated. Literally over half of the class.

And eh, I personally quite like open book/take home exams because if they're written well, it is more thinking and analytical work vs. spewing information quickly stuffed in the brain for a test. Not many times as a vet that I won't be able to crack a book open and double check things, it's the application that is important. Same reason I like essays or projects more than straight examinations - I get better depth of knowledge and it usually actually sticks. Takes longer but is much more enjoyable than study study study regurgitate.

I also pretty rarely did take home things collaboratively (when allowed) because I'm a big fan of my comfy couch and doing work at roughly 2am, which doesn't usually sit well with others. 😛
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Yeah, I didn't mean I don't like take home, I am saying when collaboration is allowed, it means there are going to be problems because there are people who are lazy and don't do the work. While cheating isn't necessarily the intention in it's strictest definition, it is still an issue that there are folks who take advantage of the situation and others. I strongly dislike this because I was on the receiving end usually of people wanting me to do the work and they ride my coat tails so to speak and it is the basis of my attitude towards this situation.

I haven't necessarily used the word cheating purposefully, but certainly weakness of character is at the front of my thoughts on this. I imagine out of the 85 there are some that are caught in the crossfire, but taking responsibility for actions is a must. Playing the miscommunication card doesn't work with me because it is always my policy to ask for clarification. I know in classes that have multiple professors and multiple ways of doing things is a recipe for this sort of thing, but I maintain that it is up to the student to keep on top the changes. It is part of growing up and is why I cringe at times for the younger students who haven't learned the life lessons yet. At least this group now has learned it the hard way and are likely to be more diligent in seeking understanding forgoing the assumptions.
 
DVMDream said:
In PJ's with snacks and drinks. You can't forget the snacks and drinks. 😉
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"Yeaaaah, I guess I could come over and do it with you guys... but I'd have to put a bra on... can I bring a couple beers?"

...I have never claimed to be a good student.
 
Trilt said:
"Yeaaaah, I guess I could come over and do it with you guys... but I'd have to put a bra on... can I bring a couple beers?"

...I have never claimed to be a good student.
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Since when does studying braless with some beers make a bad student??

If that is the case, I was a horrible student (minus the beers, I preferred lots of chocolate and soda). 🙂
 
DVMDream said:
Since when does studying braless with some beers make a bad student??

If that is the case, I was a horrible student (minus the beers, I preferred lots of chocolate and soda). 🙂
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Yup. I am for sure a guilty party here as well! Beer and wine, ho!
 
Trilt said:
I suppose, but I could still very much see a situation where the students were under a different impression than the professor, but since it still fell under an honor code violation there were punishments. It would be very saddening to me if 85 people in a class deliberately cheated. Literally over half of the class.
Click to expand...

I guess. But one of the things people point out is that that's a large percentage - but by no means all - of the class. So clearly <some> people understood the expectation. If there was confusion, my class always sought out clarification from the instructor. It sounds more like what happened might have been a whole lot of people deciding to take intentional advantage of some confusion. Sorta the whole "well, he didn't SAY we couldn't collaborate, so let's assume we can" kind of mentality.

I mean, the school handed out some disciplinary action. So clearly the school felt it went beyond "different impression"....

I agree with you - I like open book / take home exams. I enjoyed the chance to work on them with less pressure and a beer in my hand. And I felt it made sense to preserve lecture time for lectures.
 
Lupin21 said:
Yeah, I didn't mean I don't like take home, I am saying when collaboration is allowed, it means there are going to be problems because there are people who are lazy and don't do the work. While cheating isn't necessarily the intention in it's strictest definition, it is still an issue that there are folks who take advantage of the situation and others. I strongly dislike this because I was on the receiving end usually of people wanting me to do the work and they ride my coat tails so to speak and it is the basis of my attitude towards this situation.

I haven't necessarily used the word cheating purposefully, but certainly weakness of character is at the front of my thoughts on this. I imagine out of the 85 there are some that are caught in the crossfire, but taking responsibility for actions is a must. Playing the miscommunication card doesn't work with me because it is always my policy to ask for clarification. I know in classes that have multiple professors and multiple ways of doing things is a recipe for this sort of thing, but I maintain that it is up to the student to keep on top the changes. It is part of growing up and is why I cringe at times for the younger students who haven't learned the life lessons yet. At least this group now has learned it the hard way and are likely to be more diligent in seeking understanding forgoing the assumptions.
Click to expand...

Yeah you're always going to get those people. I feel like they decreased significantly in vet school vs. undergrad, though, and when people didn't have much to say for group work it was usually because they were genuinely having trouble with the subject and we worked through it. I had a pretty good study group when I got around to bra-ing and showing up, though, ha.

I guess miscommunication works for me because I saw it happen in my class and feel like if some of the crazy ridiculous Type-A's in my class can be confused, anyone could have. But in any case, what's done is done for them I suppose, and I'm sure they've learned their lesson whether there was foul intent or not.

DVMDream said:
Since when does studying braless with some beers make a bad student??

If that is the case, I was a horrible student (minus the beers, I preferred lots of chocolate and soda). 🙂
Click to expand...
You actually have no idea how many weirded out comments I've gotten when I say I regularly studied with a beer or two. There was a sort of spirit bond between myself and a couple of other classmates in my group who would drink-study, surrounded by so many more who took it much more seriously. 😛 (We won't compare class ranks between the two groups, though, ha).
 
rockatiel said:
I mean, my undergrad TRIED to be strict on cheating, though you could see it didn't work... And one thing that was echoed is if there was a take home test--in my experience it was usually essays provided as part of a larger exam we took in class--you were only to use your books, notes, and self. I never had any doubts about collaboration, because it was stated in the syllabi of several other classes that collaboration of any kind was a violation. I had other classes that was give us take home quizzes to prepare for the test and they would always explicitly tell us we could work together or not... Why you'd think that was okay with a large exam...??? Maybe that's the change that needs to be made.

Also, re: students reply. When practitioners are starting to say "please don't apply at my clinic" it's time to stop. I really don't think this is something any current students should be commenting on if they were involved or not. I've seen OSU students on this very forum anonymously say they weren't really allowed to say much, so why would you do it with your name attached in front of potential hiring vets?
Click to expand...

Quite honestly, the student's response on the post is totally out of line. I wouldn't want to hire her either.

The issue is the lack of personal responsibility, in my opinion. Cheating at this point and getting away with it only encourages cheating later when lives are at risk. The student's response indicates that she's willing to make excuses and lash out at others instead of trying to understand *why* it's an important discussion.
 
LetItSnow said:
I guess. But one of the things people point out is that that's a large percentage - but by no means all - of the class. So clearly <some> people understood the expectation. If there was confusion, my class always sought out clarification from the instructor. It sounds more like what happened might have been a whole lot of people deciding to take intentional advantage of some confusion. Sorta the whole "well, he didn't SAY we couldn't collaborate, so let's assume we can" kind of mentality.

I mean, the school handed out some disciplinary action. So clearly the school felt it went beyond "different impression"....

I agree with you - I like open book / take home exams. I enjoyed the chance to work on them with less pressure and a beer in my hand. And I felt it made sense to preserve lecture time for lectures.
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Totally possible. Something like that is honestly probably what happened, just considering the number of people and what seems to be lenient sentencing (since I don't see 80 newly open seats, ha).

It guess it just bugs me when judgments are made without the whole story, and it seems like the whole story isn't going to be released... so I am inclined to think better of the students vs. worse. Probably coming from the same place inside me that constantly (gently) harassed my classmates for rDVM shaming in fourth year.
 
I'm with @Trilt , honestly I could easily see this as a case of miscommunication. Mostly because this past spring semester our cardio prof came up to us a couple days before the exam and apologized because he knew it was going to be an online exam and thus assumed it would be open book, so he wrote more difficult questions operating under the assumption that we'd be able to go into our notes. The test wasn't open book however, and he found out late, so he essentially took the last class period before the exam to pretty much go over the exact topics he asked about on the test. So if the professors can get confused about open vs closed book, I can easily see that being translated into students being confused about it.

Granted I definitely don't know the specifics of this case, but half the class seems like far too many to be maliciously cheating...
 
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KCgophervet said:
I'm with @Trilt , honestly I could easily see this as a case of miscommunication. Mostly because this past spring semester our cardio prof came up to us a couple days before the exam and apologized because he knew it was going to be an online exam and thus assumed it would be open book, so he wrote more difficult questions operating under the assumption that we'd be able to go into our notes. The test wasn't open book however, and he found out late, so he essentially took the last class period before the exam to pretty much go over the exact topics he asked about on the test. So if the professors can get confused about open vs closed book, I can easily see that being translated into students being confused about it.

Granted I definitely don't know the specifics of this case, but half the class seems like far too many to be maliciously cheating...
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I think that the malicious part is where we all agree as to not being the case but have a difference of opinion whether it is an offense that is worthy of still thinking the students were in the wrong. I don't think they planned it out to cheat in the traditional sense of the word. However, I do think there was intent to take advantage of the situation by a large portion of the students and that they are to be held accountable for it. The school said they violated the school code of ethics, and with that it tells me the teacher/s administering the quizzes and/or exams did not intend them to be done in a collaborative effort. Like I said, maybe some were allowing it so there was an assumption all tests were the same, but it still falls on the student to get the clarification on that.

Interestingly, Ohio's press release says they are trying to remedy it by simply making any take home collaborative. This is a little sad to me that it says their faith in students not to cheat is so minimal that they are simply doing away with that option.
 
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Lupin21 said:
Interestingly, Ohio's press release says they are trying to remedy it by simply making any take home collaborative. This is a little sad to me that it says their faith in students not to do cheat is so minimal that they are simply doing away with that option.
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So that is what they mean. Wow, I wasn't sure if I read that correctly. It just seems so counterintuitive/counterproductive.
 
Lupin21 said:
I think that the malicious part is where we all agree as to not being the case but have a difference of opinion whether it is an offense that is worthy of still thinking the students were in the wrong. I don't think they planned it out to cheat in the traditional sense of the word. However, I do think there was intent to take advantage of the situation by a large portion of the students and that they are to be held accountable for it. The school said they violated the school code of ethics, and with that it tells me the teacher/s administering the quizzes and/or exams did not intend them to be done in a collaborative effort. Like I said, maybe some were allowing it so there was an assumption all tests were the same, but it still falls on the student to get the clarification on that.

Interestingly, Ohio's press release says they are trying to remedy it by simply making any take home collaborative. This is a little sad to me that it says their faith in students not to do cheat is so minimal that they are simply doing away with that option.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't think anyone is believing it was malicious, but I do think there was something that was taken advantage of. You can make a mistake in this profession without having malicious intent, it is how you react to and handle that error that matters. And from what I've seen from the few students that have responded, it hasn't been professionally nor have any taken responsibility.
 
I knew I could trust you guys to be on the cheating story and discussing it. I think it DOES need to be reported if only to open the discussion. I know of some cheating scandals regarding people I know in real life and I think this is something that needs to be discussed. I don't like the way it was presented in that post and I think it taints the way people think of the students from the get go. And I think that student, while having a couple of valid points, should be embarrassed by the way she reacted. That overly defensive and nasty. And I'm surprised at the childish responses from some of the vets. The whole thing makes me sad.
 
twelvetigers said:
I had to read that at least four times before I could make it make sense.
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Yeah sorry, I'm glad I had people editing the paper I just submitted because I think my brain is broken

I started to say "was on" changed my mind and forgot to delete the "was".

The rest... no excuse
 
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DVMDream said:
I bet @LetItSnow studied with his bra on....
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No way, DOCTOR Dvmd.

Watch it wiggle.... See it jiggle....

#LetItShow

#FreeTheBoobs2016

#MakeBoobsGreatAgain


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
DVMDream said:
I am now unable to like this post. For two reasons... 1. Hashtags 2. The above statement

The hashtags and the above statement have made a great post, horrible. 😉
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#HashtagHateIsSoMeta


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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Abnerrs said:
Guys, quick, give me a cool neuro topic to talk about. I can't even think of things to search for. Caveat: I need a peer reviewed paper to go with the topic.
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I'm not sure you could find a peer reviewed paper on this as I'm sure it super uncommon, but the other day in the neuro dept for my summer job, we did an MRI on a dog with severe hydrocephalus. The lateral ventricles were so full of CSF, there was just a thin outline of actual brain matter. Other than very poor vision and circling, the dog was fairly normal considering it practically didn't have a cerebrum. The cerebellum was also partially compressed by a cyst (I forget what it's called now though).
 
Random question. Any ideas on how to label anatomy dissection instruments as your own? Since we are all ordering the same stuff I'm assuming it would be easy to mix things up and have various instruments run away. I was thinking maybe a piece of colored electrical tape, some colored nail polish, or something like that? I'm figuring a sharpie would just come right off.
 
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