Ranked Schools vs Unranked Schools

[Progeny]

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I'll be taking the DAT soon and will be applying next cycle. I recently heard about some dental schools being ranked while many are not. What's the advantage of going to a school that do not use class rankings and can you still specialize attending one of those schools? Thanks

 

[princeafrica]

Columbia is not ranked and they specialize a lot so yes you can.

Penn is ranked and they specialize a lot so yes you can here as well

“No ranking means less stress and less competition which means more collaboration”

 

[Likkriue]

No ranking leads to less competition and less malicious stuff going on.

 

[bracketbuster68]

Keep in mind it depends on the school. There are P/F schools like OHSU and LECOM, except LECOM switched from P/F to ranking because it was hurting them come match time.

 

[Pearl E. White]

LECOM switched from P/F to ranking because it was hurting them come match time.

That's not what they told interviewees. They stated they didn't have any problems matching students. Most if not all of the students that applied for specialties got them under P/F.

 

[bracketbuster68]

That's not what they told interviewees. They stated they didn't have any problems matching students. Most if not all of the students that applied for specialties got them under P/F.

That’s what residency directors have said. How can they differentiate someone from LECOM vs someone whos #2 at their state school. Apps get overlooked cause there are no board scores anymore and no way to differentiate candidates. Also, dont forget that interview day is sell day!

 

[setdoc7]

Penn is graded but there is no class rank. Columbia is reported as P/F although the tests the students take are graded (not sure what sense that makes?). Harvard, Uconn, and UCSF are also P/F. Apparently the actual exams at all of these schools are graded, but the transcript reports P/F. The only individuals who suffer from this are the post grad PD's. Since the students know their grades, I am not sure how this system fosters less competition and more collaboration. Since the reported average sGPA and DAT scores for the aforementioned schools are so high,
it is clear that each school selects an ultra competitive class, so where does the decrease in competition come from?

 

[zToothinator]

Penn is graded but there is no class rank. Columbia is reported as P/F although the tests the students take are graded (not sure what sense that makes?). Harvard, Uconn, and UCSF are also P/F. Apparently the actual exams at all of these schools are graded, but the transcript reports P/F. The only individuals who suffer from this are the post grad PD's. Since the students know their grades, I am not sure how this system fosters less competition and more collaboration. Since the reported average sGPA and DAT scores for the aforementioned schools are so high,
it is clear that each school selects an ultra competitive class, so where does the decrease in competition come from?

As to why the tests are graded, I think it's because if the cutoff to pass a class is a 70, as long as a student averages 70+ on all tests throughout the semester, he/she will pass the class. Which is why a P/F for each test wouldn't be sufficient.

This is what I'm guessing. I have no actual experience.

 

[2jz]

Penn is graded but there is no class rank. Columbia is reported as P/F although the tests the students take are graded (not sure what sense that makes?). Harvard, Uconn, and UCSF are also P/F. Apparently the actual exams at all of these schools are graded, but the transcript reports P/F. The only individuals who suffer from this are the post grad PD's. Since the students know their grades, I am not sure how this system fosters less competition and more collaboration. Since the reported average sGPA and DAT scores for the aforementioned schools are so high,
it is clear that each school selects an ultra competitive class, so where does the decrease in competition come from?

Since none of us are worried about competing for class rank I think it really does breed less classroom competition. I had so many student built, and shared study guides for med school exams that I didn't know which ones to pick to study from. We of course all have high expectations of ourselves, and there's definitely people who are still overly competitive, but they're gunners and gunners gonna gun. Since we're all on level ground in the classroom, you've gotta be cognizant of other ways to differentiate yourself, leadership positions are often competitive for example.

 

[setdoc7]

As to why the tests are graded, I think it's because if the cutoff to pass a class is a 70, as long as a student averages 70+ on all tests throughout the semester, he/she will pass the class. Which is why a P/F for each test wouldn't be sufficient.

This is what I'm guessing. I have no actual experience.

So here is my point....Why not just put a "P" on all of the exams that were 70 or greater, and an "F' on those that are below 70? That is true P/F grading. Exams graded F are discussed with the student. The exam could theoretically be retaken, and if the student passes, they move on. Kind of like the national boards. On the third try, if you do not pass, you are either re mediated or dismissed, on a case by case basis.

 

[artist2022]

As to why the tests are graded, I think it's because if the cutoff to pass a class is a 70, as long as a student averages 70+ on all tests throughout the semester, he/she will pass the class.

Yes and no- depends on the class. Here at UCLA, some classes require a 70% on every test/quiz in order to pass the class, while some other classes just require a 70% overall (so if you ace the midterm (like 100+%) but don't do so well on the final (like 60%), you can still pass). Grades are to determine who gets honors at the end of the course.

So here is my point....Why not just put a "P" on all of the exams that were 70 or greater, and an "F' on those that are below 70? That is true P/F grading. Exams graded F are discussed with the student. The exam could theoretically be retaken, and if the student passes, they move on. Kind of like the national boards. On the third try, if you do not pass, you are either re mediated or dismissed, on a case by case basis.

For UCLA, we use grades on exams to determine who gets honors (top 10% of the class = the highest grades). This wouldn't work if everyone just got P for >= 70 and F < 70. I think the schools you listed earlier are also P/F/H and thus they do this (but I'm not entirely sure about the details of those schools).

Since the students know their grades, I am not sure how this system fosters less competition and more collaboration.

We know our grades yes but I'd say not everyone in our class is gunning for honors and thus things are more collaborative overall- we all share study guides, quizlets, notes. There are some gunners yes but everyone just wants everyone else to pass...that's how it is with our class 🙂

 

[2jz]

So here is my point....Why not just put a "P" on all of the exams that were 70 or greater, and an "F' on those that are below 70? That is true P/F grading. Exams graded F are discussed with the student. The exam could theoretically be retaken, and if the student passes, they move on. Kind of like the national boards. On the third try, if you do not pass, you are either re mediated or dismissed, on a case by case basis.

UConn is just P/F with no honors, so I suppose we wouldn't necessarily need to know our grades unless we failed. I definitely prefer to know what I got wrong and the areas I need to improve in, if I know what I got wrong I'll know my number grade on an exam so it seems kinda pointless to hide that from us.

 

[setdoc7]

I am glad to hear that the P/F school students have chimed in that this educational modality fosters collaboration. As healthcare providers, this is one of the major objectives in providing optimal care to our patients, which is what we strive to do. My issue is that you have all agreed that the actual number grades exist, and you know them. But I do not know them, and have no actual metric to evaluate an application sitting on my screen when it comes time to chose residents for the upcoming class. It is confusing to me that the schools actually know where each student stands in relation to each other, but it is actively hidden from the PD's. How does that enhance the educational process?
Even if you attend a P/F undergrad school, the DAT solves that.
The CBSE solves this question for OMFS.
The ADAT was supposed to solve this question for the other post grad programs, but it has not.
The NBDE was never supposed to be used by post grad as a metric, I am in agreement with that.
It seems to me that is lieu of the ADAT not becoming mandatory for post grad admission (CODA could solve this by summarily including this item in future accreditation), the schools could release grades to post grad PD's on a case by case basis. After all, not everyone goes on to post grad education, so it would only be done for those students seeking further CODA accredited training.
The solution seems simple.

 

[Progeny]

Penn is graded but there is no class rank. Columbia is reported as P/F although the tests the students take are graded (not sure what sense that makes?). Harvard, Uconn, and UCSF are also P/F. Apparently the actual exams at all of these schools are graded, but the transcript reports P/F. The only individuals who suffer from this are the post grad PD's. Since the students know their grades, I am not sure how this system fosters less competition and more collaboration. Since the reported average sGPA and DAT scores for the aforementioned schools are so high,
it is clear that each school selects an ultra competitive class, so where does the decrease in competition come from?

So does P/F just mean it'll be without rankings?