Ranking advanced and preliminary programs

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yourstruly

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I had a question that I couldn't really find the answer to when doing preliminary searches.

So if I'm applying to advanced programs, and rank prelim/transitional programs with the advanced programs, but also apply to a few categorical programs (in a different specialty) as a backup, could I still end up being matched to a preliminary/transitional program if I don't match to an advanced or my safety categorical spots?

In other words, if I manage not to match into both the advanced programs and the categorical programs ... will the algorithm then match me to a prelim/transitional year, even though I didn't match into an advanced program?

Thanks!

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Thus is actually described pretty well in the NRMP FAQ.

But the short answer is that you'll have a main rank list that includes the advanced and categorical spots, as well as a linked preliminary list for each of the advanced spots. If you match to an advanced spot, the algorithm then kicks over to the linked preliminary list and tries to match you to one of them (which it may fail to do, just FYI). If you fail to match to any program on your main list, the algorithm will not automatically try to match you to the prelim programs on you supplementary lists. But you can out those prelims at the end of your main list in order to maximize your chances of matching somewhere in something.

OK...maybe that wasn't the short version, but there you have it.
 
Would the downside to that strategy be that if you match to a prelim position you won't be able to scramble into categorical?
 
Thus is actually described pretty well in the NRMP FAQ.

But the short answer is that you'll have a main rank list that includes the advanced and categorical spots, as well as a linked preliminary list for each of the advanced spots. If you match to an advanced spot, the algorithm then kicks over to the linked preliminary list and tries to match you to one of them (which it may fail to do, just FYI). If you fail to match to any program on your main list, the algorithm will not automatically try to match you to the prelim programs on you supplementary lists. But you can out those prelims at the end of your main list in order to maximize your chances of matching somewhere in something.

OK...maybe that wasn't the short version, but there you have it.

Thanks for this!! :D
 
Would the downside to that strategy be that if you match to a prelim position you won't be able to scramble into categorical?

Yes.

But ask folks how much fun and success they had in SOAP this year.

If you apply to ONLY prelim programs on your ROL and match, then you're considered "fully matched" and don't participate in SOAP.

But, if you apply to ANY categorical/advanced programs and then list prelims on your main rank list and then match to a prelim only, you still get to participate in SOAP for advanced positions only. You won't be able to apply for categoricals because you matched prelim (and can't "give it up for something better")
 
I couldn't find the answer to this in the NMRP FAQ...

So for example let's say you have advanced program A in Boston, and rank say 6 prelim programs in the Boston area. If you then match that advanced program but don't match any of those prelim programs, are you bumped down to the next advanced program on the list, or do you match advanced but not prelim?
 
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I couldn't find the answer to this in the NMRP FAQ...

So for example let's say you have advanced program A in Boston, and rank say 6 prelim programs in the Boston area. If you then match that advanced program but don't match any of those prelim programs, are you bumped down to the next advanced program on the list, or do you match advanced but not prelim?

Every advanced program has an associated prelim rank list. It can be the same prelim list for all advanced programs, or you can alter it for each one. In your example, if you only (stupidly) put the Boston prelims on your list attached to the Program A then you will only match advanced, not prelim in your scenario.

A practical approach (and one I've seen used by others) is to rank prelims in the order of "In the city of Program X" --> "In the city where I currently live so I don't have to move" --> "every other prelim program I'd consider going to because having to scramble for anything, even prelim, sucks".
 
Every advanced program has an associated prelim rank list. It can be the same prelim list for all advanced programs, or you can alter it for each one. In your example, if you only (stupidly) put the Boston prelims on your list attached to the Program A then you will only match advanced, not prelim in your scenario.

A practical approach (and one I've seen used by others) is to rank prelims in the order of "In the city of Program X" --> "In the city where I currently live so I don't have to move" --> "every other prelim program I'd consider going to because having to scramble for anything, even prelim, sucks".

In my case I'm couples matching and won't be living apart under any circumstances. In that case, if I'm understanding you right, it sounds like categoricals are pretty much the only real option?
 
In my case I'm couples matching and won't be living apart under any circumstances.
If you are a strong candidate (as is your partner), this is OK...as long as you cast a wide enough net. But when it comes to a prelim year, this attitude is kind of short sighted. Are you willing to trade one year apart (which I agree would suck massively) for a career in medicine? Because that's the (admittedly rare) worst case scenario

In that case, if I'm understanding you right, it sounds like categoricals are pretty much the only real option?

You're clearly not understanding me at all. Go back and try again.
 
If your relationship is more important than your clinical training (which I can understand), then yes Categoricals are the only absolutely safe option of ending up in the same city / close.

The second option is to apply to prelim surgery in addition to prelim IM (can't do this in Neuro, which your post history suggests is your target). Prelim GS is much easier to get, and although not guaranteed is pretty close.

The third option is to apply only to cities / areas with a large number of programs. There are lots of prelims in NYC, so chances of getting one are much higher.

In options 2 and 3, you can list only prelims in the city in which you match advanced on your rank list. Then, if you don't match, you can try to SOAP into something (not a fun experience), and if that fails, you can/must withdraw from your advanced match -- which does guarantee you and your spouse will be together, but at a high cost to your career.

Also, all of this depends on how competitive you are. The more competitive you are, the less you have to worry about.
 
If you are a strong candidate (as is your partner), this is OK...as long as you cast a wide enough net. But when it comes to a prelim year, this attitude is kind of short sighted. Are you willing to trade one year apart (which I agree would suck massively) for a career in medicine? Because that's the (admittedly rare) worst case scenario

You're clearly not understanding me at all. Go back and try again.

Thanks for your reply and your help. After seeing your reply, I see that I was indeed understanding you well. I simply regard certain options as unacceptable which you regard as foolish to not consider. My wife and I are both quite strong candidates going into relatively less-competitive specialties and this potential scenario with advanced programs only applies to a few of the elite programs that we are interested in exploring. The vast majority of our rank list would be categorical in any event as it's just not worth the trouble of messing with mediocre programs that haven't become categorical yet.

If your relationship is more important than your clinical training (which I can understand), then yes Categoricals are the only absolutely safe option of ending up in the same city / close.

The second option is to apply to prelim surgery in addition to prelim IM (can't do this in Neuro, which your post history suggests is your target). Prelim GS is much easier to get, and although not guaranteed is pretty close.

The third option is to apply only to cities / areas with a large number of programs. There are lots of prelims in NYC, so chances of getting one are much higher.

In options 2 and 3, you can list only prelims in the city in which you match advanced on your rank list. Then, if you don't match, you can try to SOAP into something (not a fun experience), and if that fails, you can/must withdraw from your advanced match -- which does guarantee you and your spouse will be together, but at a high cost to your career.

Also, all of this depends on how competitive you are. The more competitive you are, the less you have to worry about.

Thank you for the detailed explanation- coming from a program director (at least according to your name! apologies if that isn't true), that's quite helpful.
 
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