rant about current admissions process

[WillburCobb]

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thats not even remotely close to what im getting it when i was talking about the AP's. There will never be a level playing field in theory. What im getting at is more like what efle said. Many times students who major even in the humanities w/ pre-med have taken AP science classes in HS. That means their entire sGPA when applying to med school is essentially retakes of classes they have already taken + orgo if they so chose to not take any more science courses. obviously that GPA will then become higher than those whose sGPAs are comprised of their entire major w/ 3-400 level STEM courses. But that difference isnt readily factored into med school admissions
i dont even know where you come off thinking i mean "people shouldn't take AP classes so that all premeds have a fair and level playing field."

There are also plenty of pre-meds who are science majors that take AP classes in high school and plenty of pre-med humanities majors that take upper level science courses beyond pre-reqs. And contrary to popular belief on SDN there are plenty of non-science courses out there which are harder than upper level science courses, but this varies amongst schools and profs.

 

[Jabbed]

I would also make the assertion that if you see and play medicine entirely as a game to win, when the game finally stops when you graduate med school, things come crashing down quickly, when it's no longer impressing someone to get an "H" on a transcript and you're actually responsible for **** getting done.

You're too far out. Getting into med school used to be the game for most of us, but we eventually moved on to the game of getting into residency.

I distinctly remember thinking on the first day of orientation: "****, I'm here. What next?"

 

[Jabbed]

I got into a top 20 school with a 3.4x. You can too killer.
The only East Asian studies I did was when I went through my "yellow fever" stage in college. 😉

To be fair, you've obviously been out for a while. Telling another pre-med that you have a sub -3.5 gpa is greeted with an instant break of eye contact nowadays.

 

[mimelim]

You're too far out. Getting into med school used to be the game for most of us, but we eventually moved on to the game of getting into residency. I distinctly remember thinking on the first day of orientation: "****, I'm here. What next?"

A good number of residents still see things that way. For instances, prelim surgery resident yesterday (categorical radiology) takes 2 hours to do a central line in the ICU, shows up at 4:30pm to tell the other residents that it is in the left IJ (from the right IJ, ie it went the wrong way), finish signing out and when asked if he pulled the line or was going to fix it, he refused and said, "its past 5, I'm going home."

 

[mimelim]

To be fair, you've obviously been out for a while. Telling another pre-med that you have a sub -3.5 gpa is greeted with an instant break of eye contact nowadays.

I had a 3.4 in 2008 which got me interviews at every top 10 I applied.. My cousin graduated last year (2013) with a 3.44 and is at Hopkins. n=2. But, just because around you a number like "<3.5" defines people doesn't mean it is that way everywhere or even in most places.

 

[efle]

I had a 3.4 in 2008 which got me interviews at every top 10 I applied.. My cousin graduated last year (2013) with a 3.44 and is at Hopkins. n=2. But, just because around you a number like "<3.5" defines people doesn't mean it is that way everywhere or even in most places.

A 3.4 puts you bottom 10% of GPAs for all top 20 schools now so you are all quite the outliers, likely due to all having strong research which those big name schools drool over

 

[WillburCobb]

To be fair, you've obviously been out for a while. Telling another pre-med that you have a sub -3.5 gpa is greeted with an instant break of eye contact nowadays.

Non-disadvantaged, ORM, sub 3.5 with "soft" majors, with 3 MD acceptances and one turned down II last cycle here.

 

[Jabbed]

i've been very frustrated recently and i just needed a place to vent so here goes.

i am very upset with the way admissions criteria works. sure everybody has to take all the pre-med required classes but not all classes are created equal nor are all majors. with the unofficial cutoff, its essentially telling me that my 3.3/3.4 in biomedical engineering is not worth as much as the student with a 3.9 in something like art who took the very minimal science classes. I took hardcore engineering physics/calculus 1-4 with ODE/Lin. alg and some mech. eng. classes to satisfy my biomechanics concentration. yet all of that is looked at as inferior med school applicant to the 3.9 in art. (for sake of argument lets just say MCAT scores equal at something like 30) The current system doesnt reward academic exploration and challenging oneself in college, everybody (fine, a large handful, not all) is too sacred of ruining their GPA so they end up taking the bare minimum and major in something trivial.
I dont think this is how the system should work, why reward playing it safe and for many students just retaking AP classes they took in high school already just to get the pre-med requirement.
I too have often thought of changing my major to something "easier" for me like east asian studies but the only thing stopping me is the cold hard fact that I know everybody faces a 75% chance of not going to medical school and an eng. degree makes me supposedly "more hirable."
If med schools are truly about a "holistic" review it shouldnt be this way, but then having it truly holistic would create more actual work for adcoms and we dont want that

rant over

I can sympathize as I was in the same boat: triple major with hard science and economics degrees and a marginal 3.4/3.2 GPA. I took a bunch of higher level physics and math courses just for fun too because I didn't know any better (What do med schools care if I get a B-/C in concepts of particle physics or applied multivariate calculus?) I hit a 37 on The Test and ended up in a double safety MD program that's still being midwifed. I came in off the waitlist too.

Life sucks, but there's honestly nothing that you can do except for play the hand that you've been dealt and plan for tomorrow. You might have a tough time getting into med school (I sincerely hope that you don't), but I guaran-****ing-tee that you will mature from these experiences and ultimately improve your outlook on life. That, or implode from self-pity.

If this is the greatest adversity that you face throughout your career, count yourself lucky.

 

[deleted548851]

/.

 

[IlDestriero]

A 3.4 puts you bottom 10% of GPAs for all top 20 schools now so you are all quite the outliers, likely due to all having strong research which those big name schools drool over

Research
Documented Leadership
Sustained volunteering
Superior MCAT
Historically extremely competitive and GPA crushing undergrad

 

[mimelim]

A 3.4 puts you bottom 10% of GPAs for all top 20 schools now so you are all quite the outliers, likely due to all having strong research which those big name schools drool over

The point was that breaking eye contact with people because they have a 3.4 was idiotic, not that one should aim for a 3.4 GPA.

 

[Jabbed]

The point was that breaking eye contact with people because they have a 3.4 was idiotic, not that one should aim for a 3.4 GPA.

I'm glad that you succeeded, but that was not my experience.

 

[JuicyJ]

I find it absolutely hilarious that SDN premeds are trying to call BME easy and moan about this thread, when most of them can't even handle calculus based physics. GTFO. Besides engineers make a good portion of the work you do in medicine possible, and the fact that some doctors are paid as much as they are when they're basically just use other people's technology is pure robbery. At least appreciate those who make what you do even possible when their work is way more complex than what you did (there's so much math hidden behind the stuff you just get away with memorizing in medical school).

You premeds are such an entitled bunch of snot-rags. People like OP deserve special consideration because they have more breadth of understanding than a good portion of premeds combined through BME, and that prevents them way more of a context to succeed in medicine regardless of their gpa.

 

[mimelim]

I'm glad that you succeeded, but that was not my experience.

People don't look down on people with a 3.4, it is something else on the application that stinks, or the lack of something of interest/substance. I'd love to hear at what school people break eye contact because of any GPA.

 

[Jabbed]

People don't look down on people with a 3.4, it is something else on the application that stinks, or the lack of something of interest/substance. I'd love to hear at what school people break eye contact because of any GPA.

I think that you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that I showed up to an interview, shared my GPA and had people look at me like I was a wounded puppy. I was talking about my undergrad experience among fellow pre-meds and academic advisors where having a B average and planning on attending med school was seen as a misguided idea.

 

[FFH]

The only East Asian studies I did was when I went through my "yellow fever" phase in college. 😉

Long time ago on a dating site
A guy: how are you?"
Me:.....good, you?
The guy: I have yellow fever baby.
Me: You need to visit ER

Block.

 

[Goro]

Many times students who major even in the humanities w/ pre-med have taken AP science classes in HS. That means their entire sGPA when applying to med school is essentially retakes of classes they have already taken + orgo if they so chose to not take any more science courses. obviously that GPA will then become higher than those whose sGPAs are comprised of their entire major w/ 3-400 level STEM courses. But that difference isnt readily factored into med school admissions.

My response is still, "so what?"

Having a Minor in one of the Fine Arts, I can tell you is that we don't just draw , play music or watch Shakespeare all day. We have to do a LOT of writing, and critical thinking, for one. And n=2, I have two wonderful clinical colleagues who were Drama and English majors in UG.

A 3.9 is a 3.9. we don't care what your major is, only that you do well.

 

[IlDestriero]

I think that you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that I showed up to an interview, shared my GPA and had people look at me like I was a wounded puppy. I was talking about my undergrad experience among fellow pre-meds and academic advisors where having a B average and planning on attending med school was seen as a misguided idea.

My premed advisor told my friend and I that we shouldn't look at medical schools, and consider dentistry or optometry...
In her defense, that was pre MCAT and neither of us spent any time chatting her up, so she may not have appreciated our ECs. But she was still a dunce.
He got a large scholarship at a top 5 school and I got into a top 20 with some scholarship money as well.
None of it was need based. She's probably still there "mentoring" the next generation.

 

[deleted548851]

/.

 

[claduva94]

You're making overgeneralizations. The point is that if you have a competitive GPA and MCAT you will be considered because it shows you have the required baseline aptitude.

 

[aprimenumber]

A 3.9 is a 3.9. we don't care what your major is, only that you do well.

Got it. I'll keep that in mind if i ever have kids who want to be doctors. "Son, screw going to the ivies or a top school, just go to Devry and get a 4.0 and major in basket weaving. Youll be better off since they dont care what your major is/school you went to as long as that gpa is a high."

Then why didn't you get a 3.9 then? Calc 3 and diff eq are not that reasonably hard if you could do multivariable calculus. I'm willing to bet that the linear algebra you did were just glorified matrices. A lot of my classmates were BME's and had great grades and are now in med school.

 

[jurisburger]

I used to poke fun at my anthropology friends for taking "joke" classes (compared to my "intellectually superior" premed BCPM classes of course). Then I took an intro level anthropology class for gen-ed requirements and the amount of literary analysis/critical thinking/reasoning really humbled me. I ended up with a B- in that class whereas I made A's in physics/orgo.

YMMV by university of course but I believe the skills required to succeed in hard sciences vs. humanities while different, are equally difficult.

 

[FFH]

I used to poke fun at my anthropology friends for taking "joke" classes (compared to my "intellectually superior" premed BCPM classes of course). Then I took an intro level anthropology class for gen-ed requirements and the amount of literary analysis/critical thinking/reasoning really humbled me. I ended up with a B- in that class whereas I made A's in physics/orgo.

YMMV by university of course but I believe the skills required to succeed in hard sciences vs. humanities while different, are equally difficult.

Same.
In science, you are done when you know you've got it.
In humanity courses, I never know when to stop investing energy. In one of my literature class, I read over 20 books for my final paper, still didn't feel like I was informed enough and I ended up with a B+. I read some of my classmates' paper who were Eng Majored, I felt like my B+ was a blessing and I didn't even deserve that.

 

[Goro]

Please restrain your ignorance of the medical school admissions process.

A 3.9 is a 3.9. we don't care what your major is, only that you do well.

Got it. I'll keep that in mind if i ever have kids who want to be doctors. "Son, screw going to the ivies or a top school, just go to Devry and get a 4.0 and major in basket weaving. Youll be better off since they dont care what your major is/school you went to as long as that gpa is a high."

 

[BurbyPrep89]

Just throwing in two cents, although I whole heartedly don't believe this is really something that needs to be complained about. 😛

I spoke with an admissions director of a top 20 school last year - I was checking out the schools before applying per my PI's advice - and we discussed grades. She specifically mentioned that the AdCom reviews all aspects of each applicants application including the rigour of the course load. Were you taking a full course load of historically difficult courses, while working and volunteering? She didn't say Science vs the Arts, but I believe both were given consideration. I mean the adcoms must have at least some knowledge of the difficulties associated with non-Science majors.

She also said that if it was clear "you simply coasted by," they would know and consider that, if it warranted consideration. Then she joked about getting one C in undergrad for "a humanities course." Take that as you will.

All that said, who really cares what you did in undergrad, as long as you did it well? Are you upset that no one suggested you take on a major you would have more wiggle room with? No one told me either. It's not that serious. Get over it.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I find it absolutely hilarious that SDN premeds are trying to call BME easy and moan about this thread, when most of them can't even handle calculus based physics. GTFO. Besides engineers make a good portion of the work you do in medicine possible, and the fact that some doctors are paid as much as they are when they're basically just use other people's technology is pure robbery. At least appreciate those who make what you do even possible when their work is way more complex than what you did (there's so much math hidden behind the stuff you just get away with memorizing in medical school).

You premeds are such an entitled bunch of snot-rags. People like OP deserve special consideration because they have more breadth of understanding than a good portion of premeds combined through BME, and that prevents them way more of a context to succeed in medicine regardless of their gpa.

I know youre already banned, but I find this funny. Not only is BME an incrediably easy major, you learn a bunch of low level basics. Your "breadth" of understanding is actually shallow, to the point that most other engineering majors would laugh at you.

 

[aprimenumber]

I know youre already banned, but I find this funny. Not only is BME an incrediably easy major, you learn a bunch of low level basics. Your "breadth" of understanding is actually shallow, to the point that most other engineering majors would laugh at you.

It depends on the school. At least at my school, the BME curriculum was generally speaking significantly more difficult than biology, chemistry, or biochem. BME's who still wanted to become doctors usually dropped from BME to those majors, and almost never the other way around.

 

[Narmerguy]

Intellectual snobery around one's discipline is one of the surest signs of insecurity I've seen. I have learned that humans are smart creatures, and no matter what the endeavor, some will explore and develop it to a level of rigor that is difficult. Smart minds can orientate themselves to whatever problem they find interesting, be it science or prose or basket-weaving.

 

[DermViser]

A good number of residents still see things that way. For instances, prelim surgery resident yesterday (categorical radiology) takes 2 hours to do a central line in the ICU, shows up at 4:30pm to tell the other residents that it is in the left IJ (from the right IJ, ie it went the wrong way), finish signing out and when asked if he pulled the line or was going to fix it, he refused and said, "its past 5, I'm going home."

WTF. That sounds like a call straight to the attending or PD.

Edit: Oops, missed the categorical radiology resident. Never mind, that explains it.

 

[DermViser]

thats not even remotely close to what im getting it when i was talking about the AP's. There will never be a level playing field in theory. What im getting at is more like what efle said. Many times students who major even in the humanities w/ pre-med have taken AP science classes in HS. That means their entire sGPA when applying to med school is essentially retakes of classes they have already taken + orgo if they so chose to not take any more science courses. obviously that GPA will then become higher than those whose sGPAs are comprised of their entire major w/ 3-400 level STEM courses. But that difference isnt readily factored into med school admissions
i dont even know where you come off thinking i mean "people shouldn't take AP classes so that all premeds have a fair and level playing field."

And my question is still, so what? You're still complaining it's not fair.

 

[deleted548851]

/.

 

[Lake Wobegon]

You gotta play the system until you are in a position to change it, OP.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

All OP has been doing is whining and refusing to listen to the advice of successful applicants and med students and adcoms. It's kinda your own fault your GPA ain't up to snuff. As for the current system? Tough luck, OP.

 

[jb94mg]

For every person who does exceedingly well in pre-reqs because of a rigorous background in high school AP courses, there are others who still do poorly in pre-reqs despite having had AP courses in HS. I didn't even take chemistry in high school and I got through General Chemistry with good grades (as a humanities major), while others who had had it before failed out and moved on to other tracks. Honestly, to me, it seems like you're just saying all of this to make yourself feel better about your GPA - essentially externalizing your doubts and disappointment. I think Jabbed's post is on point, as is Narmerguy's.

 

[amad01]

I dont think this is how the system should work, why reward playing it safe and for many students just retaking AP classes they took in high school already just to get the pre-med requirement.
I too have often thought of changing my major to something "easier" for me like east asian studies but the only thing stopping me is the cold hard fact that I know everybody faces a 75% chance of not going to medical school and an eng. degree makes me supposedly "more hirable."
If med schools are truly about a "holistic" review it shouldnt be this way, but then having it truly holistic would create more actual work for adcoms and we dont want that

rant over

where did you get this from....

 

[amad01]

I got the solution.... establish the "PRE MEDICINE UNIVERSITY" where all pre-med students across the nation have to go and take the exact same pre-req's and exact same classes from the exact same professors. We will build it in Lebanon, Kansas, as that is the central geographical point of the country. All problems solved. Any ideas for a mascot?

 

[indebtmd]

Might I just add something that you should consider OP - while some people may be academically gifted, the mere act of being academically gifted will not guarantee that said person will be a good clinician. I have worked with many residents and physicians who were essentially very book smart, but whom I would never want to be my own clinician. While your GPA is an important factor, it is only 1 factor in the package.

 

[xffan624]

I got the solution.... establish the "PRE MEDICINE UNIVERSITY" where all pre-med students across the nation have to go and take the exact same pre-req's and exact same classes from the exact same professors. We will build it in Lebanon, Kansas, as that is the central geographical point of the country. All problems solved. Any ideas for a mascot?

A demon. It sounds like hell. All the pre-med craziness in one location. *Shudder*

 

[FFH]

all pre-med students across the nation have to go and take the exact same pre-req's and exact same classes from the exact same professors.

I know you are being sarcastic, but that's almost how it's actually done in China and in a few other east asian counties. People's academic and political fate has been determined through national wide examination since the Sui Dynasty around 600 A.C. Everybody, regardless cultural, economical, social background, gets evaluated through the same exam testing the same subjects.

Here is how it goes to get into medical colleges (which start in undergraduate):

1. All students have similar high school curriculum. English/Math/Chinese are 3 major component plus the choice or science or humanity at around sophomore in high school. Only students who chose science are allowed apply to medical track. Screwed you are if you picked humanity.

2. Over 10 Million students each year takes the same version of "Chinese SAT" (there are some regional variations, but essentially the same) for entering college on exactly the same 3 days determined a year in advance. Screwed you are for the entire year if you had to missed the exam for any reason.

3. You fill out a match request based on your self-estimated score. Screwed you are if you can't guess your score accurately.

4. Your actual score and where you stand against other people who applied the same school determines where you go and it was done through a national match process. There are a lot of ways to get screwed over in this step.

Fair? Maybe.

But don't expect your Chinese doctor, should you have one, to give a crap to your interest as a patient. There are some that do care, but at a far far smaller number than what you would feel comfortable with--the system simply don't select for the service aptitude, nor for altruism nor for any humanism awareness.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm thankful for living in the US and for the the fact that the schools at least try to find physician candidates who aren't just academic overachievers, but who actually might care. This sucks for us to be the applicant, because of the unpredictabilities in application--you won't do well without the EC to speak for your intention, regardless your GPA or MCAT, but it's better for you as a patient and everybody is/was/would be a patient.

 

[Lucca]

because i can trust that some dude behind a screen is all knowing of it right?

whatever
cares
decues

That "dude behind a screen" you quoted is an adcom.

 

[Anicetus]

If it means anything OP, we had an English major recently dismissed and it seems like there is a general trend for the top students in our class to be of the harder science majors. Two philosophy majors in our class are just skimping by with P's so far and all they do is whine about how they don't have as much exposure to science.

 

[Lucca]

Look let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that BME was super duper hard at your university. Where does this attitude of yours stop?

Omg its so not fair people who took anatomy in college are doing better than me in anatomy while I was off challenging myself.

Omg people who can only take tests but have no aptitude for people or research got better Step 1 scores than me because all they do is study to the exam instead of challenging themselves.

Omg people from top medical schools get into top residencies so easily but I couldnt get into a top medical school because I was off challenging myself.

Omg all of my classmates honored their surgery rotations while I was busting my ass off under my anal-AF attending and challenging myself but he never honors anyone.

Omg he got to be the attending's go-to resident because he got all the easy patients so his outcomes were better while all my patients were made up of the living dead.

Omg he got chief resident because he went to the same grade-inflating ivy as the attendings at this hospital while I was off challenging myself.

A better question would be, did you start acting this way before medical admissions was an issue?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

because i can trust that some dude behind a screen is all knowing of it right?

whatever
cares
decues

Lol lol lol lol

 

[Lake Wobegon]

because i can trust that some dude behind a screen is all knowing of it right?

whatever
cares
decues

Good night, sweet prince.

 

[efle]

What a terrifically bad thread this has been

"sure sucks how some STEM majors require a lot more difficult science coursework and its harder to remain competitive while studying that"

"screw you OP you whiny betch"
"Im offended by this because Im humanities, let me tell you how BME is no harder than anthropology"
"holistic, who even needs grades"

/thread

 

[altblue]

Be thankful this isn't like undergraduate admissions.

1. Mom and dad sending students to a top private high school that will trash their GPA and force them to go to Central Valley City University
2. Athletes and legacies getting into top UG who are , relatively, far less qualified for their institutions than the URMs (that this board loves to complain about) getting into top med schools
3. ****ty high schools inadequately preparing students for scaled or curved national tests like AP, ACT, or SAT II and therefore effectively forcing them into poor schools

It could be so much worse. <3

 

[amvet70]

OP: I'm confused about your rant about admission process

Did you apply to MD schools? What results?
Did you apply to DO schools? What results?
Did you take MCAT?
If you took MCAT, what was your score (including subsections)?

 

[URHere]

Talk to an applicant in any major and I'm sure they'll have something "unfair" to complain about. BME? Harder classes. Philosophy? Giant papers due constantly with an ungodly number of books to read. Theater? Regularly up until 1am for rehearsals, even if they have 8am bio the next day.

Each major is different, but you chose your situation. The system works the same way it always has and raw GPA is important. If you aren't doing well, your options are to work harder, change majors, or just deal with things gracefully. Ranting may make you feel better, but it ultimately doesn't help.

 

[Goro]

Adcom member-yes
Faculty member-yes
But PhD, not DO or MD.

That "dude behind a screen" you quoted is an adcom and an attending physician.

 

[mimelim]

Adcom member-yes
Faculty member-yes
But PhD, not DO or MD.

Whatever. You and I say the same thing 99% of the time, so whatever value MD would/"should" have is moot.