PhD/PsyD Re-applying to PsyD Clinical Psychology programs

[Wannabedoc154]

Hi everyone! Since many of us are quarantined I figured it would be a good time to inquire about any feedback/recommendations about re-applying to PsyD clinical psych programs (second time around). To give more info, I applied to 10 schools, got interviews to 4, went to 3 interviews, and got accepted to 1. I've pretty much decided to apply to schools again as I feel this is a huge investment and I want to make I commit to a program that is the right fit (I've been practicing as an MHC-LP for two years, I have a BA in Psych and MA in mental health counseling). I didn't take the psych subject test so it's something I am going to do this time around. Looking forward to any and all feedback/shared experiences!

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[R. Matey]

What are your thoughts about counseling psychology Ph.D. programs?


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[Wannabedoc154]

That's a good question! I actually applied to Fordham's Counseling psych program but didn't hear back. I assume it is because of my lower GRE scores (155Q, 148V, 5 AW). I've considered re-taking the exam, but as you may be able to tell standardized testing is not my strong suit (Especially the general ones). I am hoping scoring well on the subject test can supplement that. Thanks!

 

[PsyDuck90]

Very few programs care about the subject GRE. Unless any programs you're interested in specifically request the psych GRE, I would spend the extra time and effort on getting a better score on the regular GRE.

I'm just curious, why are you specifically only looking at PsyD programs? Balanced PhD and quality PsyD programs are pretty even, so I wouldn't close off a bunch of options. Even within PsyDs, the better ones require research, so focusing on research fit when targeting programs will still be something to consider for your reapplication. I don't know anything about your previous attempt, so you may very well have already done these things.

 

[Wannabedoc154]

Oops! I wrote down my scores incorrectly, they are actually 155V, 148Q. And that's a pretty good point--based on the research I did many of the PhD programs on the east-coast (particularly NY-area) are typically research-heavy. But this is a really helpful point as it is something to consider looking further into.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Oops! I wrote down my scores incorrectly, they are actually 155V, 148Q. And that's a pretty good point--based on the research I did many of the PhD programs on the east-coast (particularly NY-area) are typically research-heavy. But this is a really helpful point as it is something to consider looking further into.

I would also broaden the search a bit. Programs in major metro areas are more competitive just based on the fact that everyone seems to want to move there. Between grad school, internship, and post-doc, there is a high likelihood you may have to relocate at least once or twice. You can always (re)locate to the NYC area once you've finished your education. And honestly, you can possibly get into a higher caliber program with better funding, which sets you up much better for your future.

 

[R. Matey]

Very few programs care about the subject GRE. Unless any programs you're interested in specifically request the psych GRE, I would spend the extra time and effort on getting a better score on the regular GRE.

I'm just curious, why are you specifically only looking at PsyD programs? Balanced PhD and quality PsyD programs are pretty even, so I wouldn't close off a bunch of options. Even within PsyDs, the better ones require research, so focusing on research fit when targeting programs will still be something to consider for your reapplication. I don't know anything about your previous attempt, so you may very well have already done these things.

I have a different opinion: the psych GRE has been shown to be a better predictor of graduate study in psychology than the general test. I remember reading in Insider’s Guide that there are diminishing returns on continuing to study and retake the general test. Do your own research, OP. Don’t just take my word for it.


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[R. Matey]

That's a good question! I actually applied to Fordham's Counseling psych program but didn't hear back. I assume it is because of my lower GRE scores (155Q, 148V, 5 AW). I've considered re-taking the exam, but as you may be able to tell standardized testing is not my strong suit (Especially the general ones). I am hoping scoring well on the subject test can supplement that. Thanks!

If you have a master’s in counseling already and are willing to move, your chances are much better in a PhD program in counseling psychology than a clinical psychology PhD program IMO. I also don’t think your GRE scores are as much the issue as your location. Use insider’s guide or graduate study in psychology to look for funded programs that admit > 50% of their students with master’s degrees.

 

[foreverbull]

If you have a master’s in counseling already and are willing to move, your chances are much better in a PhD program in counseling psychology than a clinical psychology PhD program IMO. I also don’t think your GRE scores are as much the issue as your location. Use insider’s guide or graduate study in psychology to look for funded programs that admit > 50% of their students with master’s degrees.

Competitiveness will depend on the individual program, although clinical experience/ further education is generally more preferred in counseling over clinical. That said, one still has to have a reasonably well thought-out research area of interest and decent GRE scores going in (since the metric has changed since I was in grad school, I have no idea what the usual cutoffs are these days). Research requirements are identical for counseling and clinical programs, just a different focus, so it really depends on how much OP is willing to commit to research.

In my counseling program, I had a predissertation project, dissertation, and four stats classes. My colleagues in PsyD programs had either a really long case conceptualization paper or a research project that was complex but without any checkins/support from faculty and without the stats background, so extra help (i.e. money) was needed to run stats, etc.

How do these options sound to you, OP?

 

[Wannabedoc154]

If you have a master’s in counseling already and are willing to move, your chances are much better in a PhD program in counseling psychology than a clinical psychology PhD program IMO. I also don’t think your GRE scores are as much the issue as your location. Use insider’s guide or graduate study in psychology to look for funded programs that admit > 50% of their students with master’s degrees.

Thank you for that resource! I'll definitely order it.

 

[Wannabedoc154]

Competitiveness will depend on the individual program, although clinical experience/ further education is generally more preferred in counseling over clinical. That said, one still has to have a reasonably well thought-out research area of interest and decent GRE scores going in (since the metric has changed since I was in grad school, I have no idea what the usual cutoffs are these days). Research requirements are identical for counseling and clinical programs, just a different focus, so it really depends on how much OP is willing to commit to research.

In my counseling program, I had a predissertation project, dissertation, and four stats classes. My colleagues in PsyD programs had either a really long case conceptualization paper or a research project that was complex but without any checkins/support from faculty and without the stats background, so extra help (i.e. money) was needed to run stats, etc.

How do these options sound to you, OP?

Thank you for your response! Interesting-I am not super duper into research (ex.analogy = willing to have more of an open relationship with it than a marriage). The reason I initially focused on PsyD's is because they typically tend to be less research focused and more about clinical training. I do have a research topic that I briefly studied during undergrad and my MA and is the topic that I have in interest in pursuing (social media X attachment X depression/anxiety outcomes for children/adol). Does any have programs they'd recommend based on personal firsthand experience or secondhand experience?

 

[R. Matey]

Competitiveness will depend on the individual program, although clinical experience/ further education is generally more preferred in counseling over clinical. That said, one still has to have a reasonably well thought-out research area of interest and decent GRE scores going in (since the metric has changed since I was in grad school, I have no idea what the usual cutoffs are these days). Research requirements are identical for counseling and clinical programs, just a different focus, so it really depends on how much OP is willing to commit to research.

In my counseling program, I had a predissertation project, dissertation, and four stats classes.

My program was similar.

OP, you might also want to check out the ETS tables on GRE scores by declared program of graduate study to get a gauge on where your scores fall in the distribution. Here's a link.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just another FYI/PSA, reputable PsyDs have a similar amount of research focus as balanced PhD programs.

 

[modestmousktr]

I know many counseling psych PhD programs are beginning to phase out use of GRE scores. I don't think mine looks at them anymore and it's a reputable/funded university. It is research-heavy, and their goal is to train academics, but I honestly believe the most common outcome of our program is people going into practice. PM me if you'd like the name.

 

[R. Matey]

Just another FYI/PSA, reputable PsyDs have a similar amount of research focus as balanced PhD programs.

That are also fully funded?


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[WisNeuro]

That are also fully funded?

They do exist. There just happen to be many more PsyDs of ill repute that happen to be unfunded.

 

[R. Matey]

They do exist. There just happen to be many more PsyDs of ill repute that happen to be unfunded.

Good to know. Still, I wonder how a MA/MS counseling degree is treated in such a program. IME counseling master’s degrees don’t amount to much in clinical programs. In counseling programs you can transfer in some of your coursework which shortens your time in school hence the suggestion to the OP. Also having a PhD rather than a PsyD opens more academic doors.


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[WisNeuro]

Good to know. Still, I wonder how a MA/MS counseling degree is treated in such a program. IME counseling master’s degrees don’t amount to much in clinical programs. In counseling programs you can transfer in some of your coursework which shortens your time in school hence the suggestion to the OP. Also having a PhD rather than a PsyD opens more academic doors.

They likely won't get you a ton of credits waived in many programs, but I have seen the master's thesis requirement waived if it was rigorous enough.

 

[R. Matey]

They likely won't get you a ton of credits waived in many programs, but I have seen the master's thesis requirement waived if it was rigorous enough.

Some programs assume a master's degree upon entry, which cuts down the overall time in school albeit maybe a year. From my admittedly aging knowledge when I was researching clinical vs. counseling programs, it seemed to be a better deal for someone with a master's degree in counseling to go on for a counseling psychology doctorate and spend five years in school where your chances of funding were pretty good than spend six years in school.

 

[Wannabedoc154]

Does anyone have any insights or feedback about UDenver's PsyD Clinical program? Working on a list of places where I should re-apply. Thank you!

 

[psych.meout]

Does anyone have any insights or feedback about UDenver's PsyD Clinical program? Working on a list of places where I should re-apply. Thank you!

It's probably the most expensive program in the country, ~$72,000/year in just tuition, fees, and health insurance before living expenses and other costs. No program is worth that.

 

[Wannabedoc154]

Thanks for that feedback! Definitely important to consider and will of course look into financial aid options for any program I would attend. Outside of cost, any other insights?

 

[psych.meout]

Thanks for that feedback! Definitely important to consider and will of course look into financial aid options for any program I would attend. Outside of cost, any other insights?

All told, you're probably looking at ~$300,000 in debt total by the time you get licensed. I doubt that there are any feasible options to make a considerable dent in the costs of attending that program.

Besides that, cohorts are on the larger side (34-44, which are bigger than my entire program), only 90% of graduate are licensed, and they seem to have issues passing the EPPP.

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.asppb.net/resource/resmgr/eppp_/2017_Doctoral_Report.pdf

So, it's incredibly expensive, mentorship is probably not great, and there are clearly issues getting licensed, which would complicate paying back the monstrous debt.

 

[Temperance]

~$72,000/year

what

 

[psych.meout]

what

 

[Temperance]

Charging that much is just wrong.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

View attachment 303060

It's not like Denver has Idaho pricing for real estate.

 

[Sanman]

It's not like Denver has Idaho pricing for real estate.

3 million/yr in tuition buys some decent real estate, I think.

$375k in student loan debt ensures grads won't be buying real estate in Denver or Idaho.

 

[Wannabedoc154]

Thanks everyone! While we're at it, any thoughts on Roosevelt?

 

[Bubbala]

What are your thoughts about counseling psychology Ph.D. programs?


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I don't mean to offend, but if OP is having trouble getting into PsyD programs, they may have even more trouble getting into counseling psych PhD programs. There's this misconception that counseling psych PhD programs are easier to get into than clinical psych PhDs, but Insider's Guide said the average clinical PhD acceptance rate is 6% and counseling PhD's is 8% (so not much different). We also don't know about OP's research background, which is important in admissions. And their GRE scores are not competitive.

If I were OP, I would focus on improving my application materials and work on my interview skills. Have a psychologist or advanced student review your materials and give you feedback before applying. Also, the fact that 4 programs interviewed you means they liked your materials enough to meet in person, but maybe two of the interviews didn't go as smoothly as you liked. So that might be an area to improve as well.

 

[R. Matey]

I don't mean to offend, but if OP is having trouble getting into PsyD programs, they may have even more trouble getting into counseling psych PhD programs. There's this misconception that counseling psych PhD programs are easier to get into than clinical psych PhDs, but Insider's Guide said the average clinical PhD acceptance rate is 6% and counseling PhD's is 8% (so not much different). We also don't know about OP's research background, which is important in admissions. And their GRE scores are not competitive.

If I were OP, I would focus on improving my application materials and work on my interview skills. Have a psychologist or advanced student review your materials and give you feedback before applying. Also, the fact that 4 programs interviewed you means they liked your materials enough to meet in person, but maybe two of the interviews didn't go as smoothly as you liked. So that might be an area to improve as well.

You should read the rest of the thread prior to commenting. I'm not saying that counseling psychology is easier. I'm saying it might be a better fit for people who already have a master's degree in counseling. The trouble the OP is having is likely due to geographical restrictions. If you actually look at the table I linked in this thread, you will find that the OP's GRE scores are actually around average for both clinical and counseling psychology. It's page 10.

 

[Bubbala]

You should read the rest of the thread prior to commenting. I'm not saying that counseling psychology is easier. I'm saying it might be a better fit for people who already have a master's degree in counseling. The trouble the OP is having is likely due to geographical restrictions. If you actually look at the table I linked in this thread, you will find that the OP's GRE scores are actually around average for both clinical and counseling psychology. It's page 10.

And you shouldn't assume I didn't read the whole thread prior to replying to me; I did read the whole thread. I stand by my comment.

The ETS table shows data for all applicants, not successful applicants. Again, OP's scores are not competitive - they're about average.

OP even said they're not "super duper" into research and apparently hasn't done any research since undergrad.

Not getting into most PsyDs last cycle, not having competitive scores, and not being interested in research or having much research experience says to me that a PhD doesn't seem like a good or realistic fit for OP at this time. I just don't think it's reasonable to suggest an even more competitive option to OP when they're already struggling to get into PsyD programs.

 

[R. Matey]

And you shouldn't assume I didn't read the whole thread prior to replying to me; I did read the whole thread. I stand by my comment.

The ETS table shows data for all applicants, not successful applicants. Again, OP's scores are not competitive - they're about average.

OP even said they're not "super duper" into research and apparently hasn't done any research since undergrad.

Not getting into most PsyDs last cycle, not having competitive scores, and not being interested in research or having much research experience says to me that a PhD doesn't seem like a good or realistic fit for OP at this time. I just don't think it's reasonable to suggest an even more competitive option to OP when they're already struggling to get into PsyD programs.

Demonstrate that the average intended graduate major scores are significantly/practically lower than the scores of admitted students and I'll happily concede.

For the types of programs the OP is interested in (e.g.: programs that train clinicians be them Psy.D. or balanced scientist-practitioner programs) average scores (listed in the data tables) are acceptable. I've known people with similar scores to the OP get in to funded, clinically balanced Ph.D. programs in both clinical and counseling psychology. The fact the OP wants to live in NYC while doing a doctoral program is most likely the problem. NYC is a more competitive area than the rest of the country.

 

[Sanman]

Demonstrate that the average intended graduate major scores are significantly/practically lower than the scores of admitted students and I'll happily concede.

For the types of programs the OP is interested in (e.g.: programs that train clinicians be them Psy.D. or balanced scientist-practitioner programs) average scores (listed in the data tables) are acceptable. I've known people with similar scores to the OP get in to funded, clinically balanced Ph.D. programs in both clinical and counseling psychology. The fact the OP wants to live in NYC while doing a doctoral program is most likely the problem. NYC is a more competitive area than the rest of the country.

And most of their programs are sub-par when it comes to funding and clinical opportunities compared to Non-NYC programs.

 

[student til 30]

And most of their programs are sub-par when it comes to funding and clinical opportunities compared to Non-NYC programs.

The selection and quality of training opportunities in NYC is as good as if not better than anywhere else in the country, at least in terms of externships and internships (Search | NYNJAPDOT Externship Matching). Internal practica will vary by program.

I won't even try to defend funding vs. cost of living.

 

[Sanman]

The selection and quality of training opportunities in NYC is as good as if not better than anywhere else in the country, at least in terms of externships and internships (Search | NYNJAPDOT Externship Matching). Internal practica will vary by program.

I won't even try to defend funding vs. cost of living.

Yes, except you have to apply and be selected for externships whereas in many other areas of the country you have your choice and are able to secure externships you want with little to no competition. Hence a disadvantage for nyc area students.

 

[student til 30]

Yes, except you have to apply and be selected for externships whereas in many other areas of the country you have your choice and are able to secure externships you want with little to no competition. Hence a disadvantage for nyc area students.

But what a great way to practice interviewing for internship and beyond.

Somewhat to OP's point, this is a reason to go to a program with a DCT/faculty that will advise and support you through the process.

 

[Sanman]

But what a great way to practice interviewing for internship and beyond.

Somewhat to OP's point, this is a reason to go to a program with a DCT/faculty that will advise and support you through the process.

Okay, if you want to spin it that way. We had interviews for externship too...for practice. The difference is that we were never denied a training opportunity we needed to further our career. The person admitted to the program with interests in peds got the child rotations. The two of us with an interest in assessment/neuropsych got the neuropsych rotations, etc. Was someone disappointed that they did not get a single practicum? I was for a health psych rotation. I just did it in the summer as a second rotation. It took two emails (asked the supervisor and DCT done).

Like it or not, NYC area schools are charging a premium for fewer opportunities. They do it because they can. There are plenty of people willing to sacrifice their career prospects to be able to stay in NYC. I have interviewed those students and they feel a stress every year that I never did until internship. I'm not saying that someone cannot become a competent psychologist from an NYC program. I have friends and colleagues that did so. However, leaving NYC meant I could do it more easily and cheaply than in NYC. As consumers of these programs, students should be aware of that.