real perspective for premeds

[anesthesia11230]

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relatively new to this site and think its great

Have already graduated medical school and currently an anesthesia resident with only one more year to go before becoming an attending

One thing I wish i knew before getting myself into medical school and something I would like to share with others...is the amount of sacrifice, dedication and hardwork the "whole process" takes

after 4 years of undergrad (which is prob the step you guys are in now)
another 4 years of hard work in med school (which is actually the easy part compared to the 3-5 years of residency

I didnt understand the whole residency aspect of training while i was still in undergrad

Residency is pretty much a doctor in training
you work roughly or perhaps alil less than 80hrs/wk (used to be alot more)
get paid anywhere from 50-60,000/yr
if you were to calculate the hourly wage...prob less than minimum wage

you take call which means you work nearly 24 hr shifts getting paged by nurses sometimes by the most meaningless things in the middle of the night

lot of sacrifice is involved...miss out sometimes on important events of life...
Mentioning alot of these harsh realities bec this is a very very true reality of life of developing doctors for the first 5-7 years after undergrad

I dont people coming to realise this reality once "its too late" since your halfway done with med school and 150,000 in school loan debt

I have alot of collegues who wish they never got into medicine
I actually like what i do (for the most part but find myself enjoying educating more and more)

for those of you who find medicine a calling deep with...keep rockin it and become the best you can...read tons, help and never stop learning

hope this helps those who have no idea what medical training involves
best regards

--------------------------------
http://www.02demand.com
online community of clinical excellence

 

[anesthesia11230]

hope i didnt make medicine look worse than it really is.
postive attributes:
-respected and noble profession
-stable income
-wealth of knowledge
-ability to change someones life
-etc etc

anyone have any questions always feel free to ask
cheers

--------------------------------
http://www.02demand.com
online community of clinical excellence

 

[frikarika]

Thanks for your perspective. I think everything you mentioned I have thought about...but I still think I want to pursue medicine. In all honestly, almost every doctor I've spoken with has in some way tried to convince me NOT to go into medicine. I'm still nervous about it....and it's not that I'm indecisive about being a doctor...it's just my the fear of being financially strapped and becoming a complete slave to the current "system".

 

[anesthesia11230]

sounds like you are nicely determined to be a great doctor...congrats

i think the reason why many doctors persuade the new generation in other directions...because many of us have been burnt in more ways than one

ex. im currently in a lawsuit right now...totally frivilous
young kid got shot several times in the chest...ended up with b/l pneumothorax and eventually ARDS, sepsis and passed away...he was basically dead on arrival but we kept him "alive" for couple weeks

family wants to sue...for what reason? god knows...guess doctors are suppose to save every life and if not...you will be sued

anyways my point is...many nights were busy keeping the dead alive by many residents (including myself) and you would think at the end of it...there is some sense of relief that you did the best any doctor can really do in this unfortunate situation

then months later you come to realise you are being sued...and as you look at the chart in medical records you see nothing was apart from the standard of care....you begin thinking to yourself...why bother even treating any patient when anyone of them can bite the hand that feeds them

just some rationale as to what a doctor deals with quite frequently in this unfortunate litigious society

best of luck in your dreams
------------------------------
http://www.02demand.com
online community of clinical excellence

 

[Blade28]

i think the reason why many doctors persuade the new generation in other directions...because many of us have been burnt in more ways than one

ex. im currently in a lawsuit right now...totally frivilous
young kid got shot several times in the chest...ended up with b/l pneumothorax and eventually ARDS, sepsis and passed away...he was basically dead on arrival but we kept him "alive" for couple weeks

Why are you named in the lawsuit? Were you covering the SICU? Providing anesthesia in the OR during the case? 😕

 

[Karen12345]

Residency is pretty much a doctor in training
you work roughly or perhaps alil less than 80hrs/wk (used to be alot more)
get paid anywhere from 50-60,000/yr
if you were to calculate the hourly wage...prob less than minimum wage

Well, let's calculate the hourly wage then:

$50,000 / 52 weeks in a year = $962 per week

$962/80 hours = $12 per hour

Federal minimum wage: $5.85 per hour.
State minimum wage in CT: $7.65 per hour.

As you can see, you are well above the minimum wage.
Do the 80 hours also include the time when you are allowed to nap?

 

[anesthesia11230]

was a first year anesthesia resident doing a 1 month SICU rotation at that time. Wrote progress notes and few orders here and there ( amikacin, order for blood products and daily electrolytes etc.)

Risk management speculates these "sharks" just name anyone randomly on the lawsuit and slowly dismiss people one by one...unbelievable...accuse first then dismiss later in the meantime its on my record (from what i hear this is no big deal and just join the crowd)

anyways another speculation is my name is unfortunately very legible on the notes along with my ID number which i have now adopted not to add on my recent notes...and i have also seemed to have made my writing much more illegible

only three names are on the suit...attending surgeon, chief and me
totally frivilous

--------------------------------
http://www.02demand.com
online community of clinical excellence

 

[TheRealMD]

Well, let's calculate the hourly wage then:

$50,000 / 52 weeks in a year = $962 per week

$962/80 hours = $12 per hour

Federal minimum wage: $5.85 per hour.
State minimum wage in CT: $7.65 per hour.

As you can see, you are well above the minimum wage.
Do the 80 hours also include the time when you are allowed to nap?

And that assumes you always work 80 hrs/wk, which as far as I know, doesn't happen for extended periods of time (maybe your intern year).

But then again, you get paid a salary and not per hour, so if they need you at the hospital, you have to go anyway.

 

[anesthesia11230]

yes the 80 hrs includes the time i get to nap as well as:

time im interupted during lunch break...opps often i go without a lunch break coffee break smoke break and potty break

also includes times your paged at 3am

but i guess your right
saving lives at 12 bucks an hours is not all that bad of a gig

anyways was stating this for overall perspective
but point taken

 

[anesthesia11230]

to make your argument even stronger
i actually get paid over 6oG in my program

 

[Karen12345]

yes the 80 hrs includes the time i get to nap as well as:

time im interupted during lunch break...opps often i go without a lunch break coffee break smoke break and potty break

also includes times your paged at 3am

but i guess your right
saving lives at 12 bucks an hours is not all that bad of a gig

anyways was stating this for overall perspective
but point taken

I never said, "saving lives at 12 bucks an hours is not all that bad of a gig." I simply responded to your ridiculous suggestion that your salary might be less than what you would make while earning the minimum wage. Totally false and I showed it with a simple calculation. That's all.

 

[anesthesia11230]

fair enough 🙂

let me off the hook please...im on call right now 🙁

one more hour till i hand off the code pager 🙂

 

[Karen12345]

to make your argument even stronger
i actually get paid over 6oG in my program

Totally beats what most working people make and your job is actually interesting. I think you are very lucky.

 

[Karen12345]

fair enough 🙂

let me off the hook please...im on call right now 🙁

one more hour till i hand off the code pager 🙂

ok. good night.

 

[anesthesia11230]

price of a resident doctor: slightly over min wage (according to calculations)
price of Karen's forgiveness: priceless

 

[TheRealMD]

Totally beats what most working people make and your job is actually interesting. I think you are very lucky.

When you realize that most people would work 100 hours just to get 60K, I don't think it will seem so bad...

Or that's what I'll try reminding to myself in 4 years... 🙁

 

[anesthesia11230]

reality of life
if you were to apply yourself in another line of work for 100hrs/wk assuming your a bright kid...should be making 600K/yr minimum

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Emts can make 15 dollars an hour. I definitely think residents should be making more than that.

 

[ufgrad00]

Well, let's calculate the hourly wage then:

$50,000 / 52 weeks in a year = $962 per week

$962/80 hours = $12 per hour

Federal minimum wage: $5.85 per hour.
State minimum wage in CT: $7.65 per hour.

As you can see, you are well above the minimum wage.
Do the 80 hours also include the time when you are allowed to nap?

Oh lawd, don't dare compare yourself to the working class with your mighty 12/hour wage. 🙄

By the way, that is not really much above the minimum wage, a few dollars more only. At least it is not nearly significantly enough when you weigh responsibility vs. salary.

However, I think its funny that I am am now making over 12 dollars an hour in my job. And I only have a bachelors degree in bio.

 

[littlealex]

reality of life
if you were to apply yourself in another line of work for 100hrs/wk assuming your a bright kid...should be making 600K/yr minimum

I don't think so. What line of work do you think you would make this much in?
Sales? Research scientist? Business owner?
Lots of people work hard, few make that much. There's a reason despite all these glamorous jobs that people say "Oh lawyers make 1 million a year if they make partner!" but doctors still have the highest AVERAGE salary.

You make it sound like the postDoc working 80 hours a week slaving away in the lab doesn't make 600k a year because he isn't working hard enough.

 

[anesthesia11230]

for real perspective:

add 150 -200,000 school loans
which you begin paying off very very slowly in residency

karen...does that add any weight in our theory of relativity of residency salary equation?

anyways just shedding some light...this is all been said and done before
just wanted to let others know what is involved with medicine apart from SCRUBS and ER TV shows...not to mention greys anatomy...do people still watch that show?

 

[anesthesia11230]

i actually enjoy what i do and enjoy it more day by day as i become more advanced in my line of specialty...money matters to some degree but overall the challenge is rewarding in itself

anesthesia is nothing to complain about
starting salary these days can be upto 225-even 300,000/yr
after working in a group for 3 years can become partners and eventually make upto 400-500,000/yr

anyone wanting to go into anesthesia...highly recommend it
great line of specialty and deals with every aspect of clinical medicine

study hard and excel in your dreams of becoming awesome doctors
-------------------------
http://www.02demand.com
online community of clinical excellence

 

[RySerr21]

Oh lawd, don't dare compare yourself to the working class with your mighty 12/hour wage. 🙄

By the way, that is not really much above the minimum wage, a few dollars more only. At least it is not nearly significantly enough when you weigh responsibility vs. salary.

However, I think its funny that I am am now making over 12 dollars an hour in my job. And I only have a bachelors degree in bio.

haha. i'm making 30 bucks an hour as a tutor, and i'm still an undergrad!

 

[al112987]

Oh lawd, don't dare compare yourself to the working class with your mighty 12/hour wage. 🙄

By the way, that is not really much above the minimum wage, a few dollars more only. At least it is not nearly significantly enough when you weigh responsibility vs. salary.

However, I think its funny that I am am now making over 12 dollars an hour in my job. And I only have a bachelors degree in bio.

I make close to that and I'm a sophomore chemistry major!

 

[mc4435]

I think the most important information in this thread is that you can still be on SDN when you're a resident!

haha jk... seriously thanks for this thread. good read

 

[Perfoman]

price of a resident doctor: slightly over min wage (according to calculations)...

I get where you are coming from. Compensation for residents is ridiculous no matter how you spin it. In terms of perspective I made $15 an hour writing software while I was working on my undergrad. Given, I worked <40 hours a week but had I finished that degree instead of switching to medicine I'd be at 50k-60k easy (straight out of school) and I wouldn't be 150k+ in debt. It is just a bummer to know that after another 4+ years of education i'll be drowning in debt and won't even be making as much as I was during undergrad. Obviously knowing that it will be a loooong time before I will be in the same financial situation as I would have been with my other degree isn't enough to keep me from medicine, but that same fact could keep some potentially good doctors away from medicine altogether. It's a big sacrifice that not a lot of people are in a position to make.

I just don't understand the mentality behind resident salary. I mean the only way to rationalize it is to view med school as undergraduate training and residency as your graduate program. Then at least salary out of med school would be comparable with salary directly out of undergrad. But when you look at it that way what is the point of an actual undergraduate degree? No undergraduate degree actually prepares someone for medicine, or even med school for that matter (especially since more and more adcoms want "diverse" applicants, not just bio-related).

I think I'm rambling, but I just think it is dumb that the only field where you can expect your salary to more than double from one year to the next is medicine. I mean, when is the last time you got a 100% raise at a a yearly review? In almost any other field, with an undergrad + 8-10 years experience chances are good you'll be making close to what a doctor fresh out of residency is... the only difference is that you've been making more than 50k for the past 8-10 years and don't owe a house-worth of debt whereas the doctor went from 60-120k pretty much overnight.

I dunno, it's just hard to make sense of the whole system I guess. I kinda forgot what specific point I was trying to make in the beginning haha.

 

[ColKurtz]

anyways just shedding some light...this is all been said and done before
just wanted to let others know what is involved with medicine apart from SCRUBS and ER TV shows...not to mention greys anatomy...do people still watch that show?

How much on call room action can we expect to get?

 

[ryandote]

.

 

[TheRealMD]

Those $600K jobs are about to get shafted soon due to a US recession that is looming if it's not already here. And watch the stock market tomorrow probably hit some new lows.

And then we learn another incredible value of medicine. Your job won't cease to exist unless you make it so.

 

[J1515]

Well, let's calculate the hourly wage then:

$50,000 / 52 weeks in a year = $962 per week

$962/80 hours = $12 per hour

Federal minimum wage: $5.85 per hour.
State minimum wage in CT: $7.65 per hour.

As you can see, you are well above the minimum wage.
Do the 80 hours also include the time when you are allowed to nap?

You are forgetting a little something called taxes. I might as well mention social security and health insurance too. You are bringing home quite a bit less than $12 per hour.

 

[Karen12345]

You are forgetting a little something called taxes. I might as well mention social security and health insurance too. You are bringing home quite a bit less than $12 per hour.

No, I am not forgetting taxes. Everyone pays them, including those who earn the minimum wage. We are considering gross income here.

 

[Karen12345]

for real perspective:

add 150 -200,000 school loans
which you begin paying off very very slowly in residency

karen...does that add any weight in our theory of relativity of residency salary equation?

anyways just shedding some light...this is all been said and done before
just wanted to let others know what is involved with medicine apart from SCRUBS and ER TV shows...not to mention greys anatomy...do people still watch that show?

No doubt residents work hard. The loans are usually big. Should the earnings be higher? Maybe, but you are still young and in training and young people rarely make that much. I kind of accept this reality. I will likely be complaining about my low salary as a resident one day. I am not too worried. Somehow every physician turns out very well in the end.
As far as TV shows go, I hope that people realize that television is not real life.

 

[Karen12345]

haha. i'm making 30 bucks an hour as a tutor, and i'm still an undergrad!

I bet you don't have that many tutoring hours.

 

[RapplixGmed]

Those $600K jobs are about to get shafted soon due to a US recession that is looming if it's not already here. And watch the stock market tomorrow probably hit some new lows.

And then we learn another incredible value of medicine. Your job won't cease to exist unless you make it so.

qft. My stock investments are already screwed but not as screwed as those who owned bear stearns stock. That thing has gone from 170 at peak to 2$ since the company imploded. I would not want to be a worker at bear or jpmorgan these days.

 

[xanthomondo]

Oh lawd, don't dare compare yourself to the working class with your mighty 12/hour wage. 🙄

By the way, that is not really much above the minimum wage, a few dollars more only. At least it is not nearly significantly enough when you weigh responsibility vs. salary.

However, I think its funny that I am am now making over 12 dollars an hour in my job. And I only have a bachelors degree in bio.

I hope you're making well over $12 an hour with a bachelors degree.

 

[psych]

People com[plain about 150-200k in debt. When I'm finished I'm going to be 300k+ in debt!!! 😱

[gulp]

 

[Auron]

I hope you're making well over $12 an hour with a bachelors degree.

meh, a BS in Bio isn't worth much....I should've majored in business. Oh well...

 

[xanthomondo]

meh, a BS in Bio isn't worth much....I should've majored in business. Oh well...

The lowest paying lab job for a bio degree that I came across was $16-$17 an hour

 

[ufgrad00]

I hope you're making well over $12 an hour with a bachelors degree.

One would hope so, but as I found out in the area I live, bachelors degrees are overrated today. Better put, there are just not enough opportunities for BA/BS Bio degree holders in many areas. Most jobs want either higher degrees (however they can be in anything like a Masters in Admin.) or they require no degree, like roofing construction, which I was seriously gonna do, but an opportunity came about.

One example, a friend of mine graduated with honors from UF with a Bachelors in Business Administration and is currently applying for bussiness school. However, the same thing is happening to him. The only substantial and available internship, which was at a paper mill, paid a few dollars above minimum wage, and he realized couldn't live off that amount. However, he is currently working along side high school students making more money as a cashier in a supermarket than he would by taking the internship.

 

[smq123]

Why are you named in the lawsuit? Were you covering the SICU? Providing anesthesia in the OR during the case? 😕

was a first year anesthesia resident doing a 1 month SICU rotation at that time. Wrote progress notes and few orders here and there ( amikacin, order for blood products and daily electrolytes etc.)

😱

You just named one of my worst nightmares - getting sued as a resident. I hope they drop this whole crappy lawsuit ASAP.

Well, let's calculate the hourly wage then:

$50,000 / 52 weeks in a year = $962 per week

$962/80 hours = $12 per hour

Do the 80 hours also include the time when you are allowed to nap?

There's a residency that pays $50,000 per year?? Where? Where?

There's a residency that allows you to nap?? Where? Where?

'Cause that's the residency for me! 🙄

Geez, even as a med student there's no time for a nap. There's too much crap that needs to get done. When there's downtime, that's when I seize the chance to go to Student Health, go to the dentist, go to the bank, go to meet with my student advisors - otherwise I'd never be able to do that crap.

(Well, technically, I suppose you could nap if you didn't mind failing a rotation or something.)

As Tired will tell you, not all residencies strictly obey the 80 hour rule. They do on paper, but you can't always compartmentalize patient responsibilities that neatly. (Saying "As your physician, I strictly forbid your bowel from perforating between the hours of 10PM and 6AM" doesn't usually work...😉)

True, the idea that "residents make less than minimum wage" is probably leftover from the days when residents worked > 110 hours a week (not that long ago, by the way!). But they don't make THAT much, particularly in comparison to what they do, and especially not in comparison to med school debt.

I mean - if the cost of living shot up 50% tomorrow, then that "federal minimum wage" would not be adequate, and would need to be increased. I think we can both agree to that.

But that's pretty much what has happened to residents - their "cost of living" (i.e. food, housing, and mandatory debt payments) has increased tremendously over the past few years, but their salaries have not even remotely kept up. And I hope that we can both agree that that's a little unfair.

 

[Rabid Manitee]

Haha, I usually charge 50-70 $/hr when I do IT work, I haven't graduated from college yet, my degree is in Microbiology, and I have no formal IT schooling. I always told myself I'd go with computers if med school didn't work out even though I hate dealing with computers/IT.

Although next year when I'm in school and broke as you-know-what, I've made friends with the IT guy at my sister's office who said he will forward me side jobs (that I will most likely not have time to do) but then I really can be "THE COMPUTER DOCTOR!" (lots of sarcasm-- for all the people on here that can defecate diamonds)

 

[Auron]

The lowest paying lab job for a bio degree that I came across was $16-$17 an hour

find anything that does not involve working in a lab or doing research that pays that amount? I could probably make $20+ per hour in sales which doesn't even require a high school diploma

 

[Felix]

Haha, the point is: You're not done yet. 🙄

If I see one more quote of those calculations I'm going to "fffffffffffff".

 

[Dane07MD]

In favor of the poster, federal wage requirements state that anyone working more than 40 hours a week will receive time and a half.

Thus:
Minimum wage: 40 hours/week X 52 weeks = 2,080 hours X $6.50/hour = $13,520
Minimum wage overtime: 40 hours/week X 52 weeks = 2,080 X 9.75/hour = $20,280

That totals close to $34,000 for someone working 80 hours a week at minimum wage. This is approximately $6,000 less than the AVERAGE starting PGY1 salary.

Assume also that the PGY1 has accumulated an educational debt that is equal to approximately $175,000, which accrues an annual interest of 6.5%. This equals roughly $11,500 of negative income each year as well.

In the posters case, he has a decent paying residency, but it is an anomaly. Yes, your math proves that technically, he makes more than minimum wage, but for all intensive purposes, during the time that you are in residency, based on the above math, you would come out ahead if you worked for the hospital at an hourly rate and didn't have debt. To argue the OPs point further, the M.A.s he works with (if they worked 80 hours a week) would definitely have more attractive 1040s than the residents....

 

[Dane07MD]

Haha, the point is: You're not done yet. 🙄

If I see one more quote of those calculations I'm going to "fffffffffffff".

hahah, time to ffffffff

 

[Felix]

hahah, time to ffffffff

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[Drogba]

You're right, not everybody who works hard for that many hours makes 600k. However, I think you forgot to account for the selection problem. The average resident physician is QUITE A BIT more capable than the average person. More importantly, $$$ isn't the only kind of compensation, so you should probably think of people working in exchange for happiness (which, of course, includes money.... but also includes plenty of other things... which is the only way you can explain somebody health-sciences-minded choosing a PhD over medicine). If money explained it all, every bright bioscience mind would become a doctor and then compensation would go down anyway- but that's another story.

Not really true, right? Competition for the limited number of training spots would just increase.

If the average resident-physician poured their dedication into a 100-hr week at another job (one they were willing to pick) they would probably make more money. Not at an average job, mind you, but at another job with high earning potential.

I don't know about that. Doctors (generally) work for a living by providing a rare skill set. People who make ridiculous money do so by generating lots revenue and keeping a good portion of it as profit. Just because you are able to master a challenging set of skills doesn't mean you would be able to run a profitable business. Not many salaried jobs are going to earn you that much money. In any case, quite talented people who are quite a bit above the average are already competing for the few spots where the earning potential is so high. I go to a school that may possibly be the most heavily recruited by the financial sector and I can tell you even the kids getting out of here are not guaranteed the ibanking jobs.

 

[Perfoman]

... for all intensive purposes...

=> "for all intents and purposes"

 

[Karen12345]

find anything that does not involve working in a lab or doing research that pays that amount? I could probably make $20+ per hour in sales which doesn't even require a high school diploma

probably not, but please report back here when you do.

 

[xanthomondo]

=> "for all intents and purposes"

no i think he's talking about any purposes that are innteennnseeee