Realistically, can IMG match into PGY-1 Categorical GSurg?

[Blitz2006]

I've been doing a lot of reading last few weeks on GSurg for IMGs, and looking at GSurg electives.

From the sounds of it, its pretty much impossible for IMG on J1 Visa to match into categorical GSurg. Is this a fair assessment? Also, I know there is Pre-lim, but I'm reading 'horror' stories of Pre-lim residents not making it after PGY-1 and having to switch into something else.

For example: -> http://www.valuemd.com/residency-match-forum/139655-preliminary-surgery.html

I'm not saying that post is legit or accurate, it could be 100% false for all I know. But I have read many posts/threads on sites that depict a similar outlook on Prelim GSurg.

I'm fairly close to giving up the GSurg dream, as I'm realizing that I need to start being realistic and probably just aim for Internal Meds (and thus choose my electives in IM as opposed to GSurg).

thx,

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[SLUser11]

I've been doing a lot of reading last few weeks on GSurg for IMGs, and looking at GSurg electives.

From the sounds of it, its pretty much impossible for IMG on J1 Visa to match into categorical GSurg. Is this a fair assessment? Also, I know there is Pre-lim, but I'm reading 'horror' stories of Pre-lim residents not making it after PGY-1 and having to switch into something else.

For example: -> http://www.valuemd.com/residency-match-forum/139655-preliminary-surgery.html

I'm not saying that post is legit or accurate, it could be 100% false for all I know. But I have read many posts/threads on sites that depict a similar outlook on Prelim GSurg.

I'm fairly close to giving up the GSurg dream, as I'm realizing that I need to start being realistic and probably just aim for Internal Meds (and thus choose my electives in IM as opposed to GSurg).

thx,

I don't think it's impossible to match general surgery as an IMG, but I think it's extremely difficult, and if you do match, it will generally be in an undesirable location.

It's good that you're realistic, but I don't think it's worth throwing in the towel before you even get in the fight. General surgery is nothing like plastics or ortho when it comes to competitiveness, so the door's not completely shut.

Do a rotation, and find out from other IMG's which programs are IMG-friendly, e.g. Creighton, which prides itself on finding foreign talent.

I will say, however, that if you are an IMG with average or below-average scores, then the door is pretty much closed for most places.

 

[Blitz2006]

Hey man, appreciate the response.

I agree with your post. The dilemma is, I am picking my electives for next year, and I know how crucial making contacts + USCE is for IMGs. I don't want to blow a month in a GSurg elective, when I could use that to bolster my IM application (especially since if I do Internal Meds, I want to match into a good place for IM, for a good shot at a fellowship, etc.). This is why i'm going back and forth on IM/GSurg residency.

Decisions, decisions!

I don't think it's impossible to match general surgery as an IMG, but I think it's extremely difficult, and if you do match, it will generally be in an undesirable location.

It's good that you're realistic, but I don't think it's worth throwing in the towel before you even get in the fight. General surgery is nothing like plastics or ortho when it comes to competitiveness, so the door's not completely shut.

Do a rotation, and find out from other IMG's which programs are IMG-friendly, e.g. Creighton, which prides itself on finding foreign talent.

I will say, however, that if you are an IMG with average or below-average scores, then the door is pretty much closed for most places.

 

[ajan]

.

I will say, however, that if you are an IMG with average or below-average scores, then the door is pretty much closed for most places.

what do u consider average or below avaerge scores
?give a fig.

 

[surgres88]

If you are interested in surgery then do surgery. Fight to win, hedging is for radiology and lawyers. Go all in for surgery. As long as your visa is appropriate. Because even if you match for a categorical spot and have the wrong visa, they will pull your spot.

Agree with other post, some schools are IMG friendly, some not so friendly. Here are a couple of places I know who have graduated IMGs.
- Univ of Iowa...has had a few recent IMGs graduate.
- Howard University.
- A big shocker and maybe just partly friendly, but University of Washington. They had a brutal 2 year prelim program for IMGs and at the end of 2 years you either were cut loose (most prelims) or allowed to continue (rare). Disclaimer: the ones allowed to continue that I met were surgical attendings in their native country doing a 2nd residency in the states.

 

[Blitz2006]

Yo, thx for that msg.

Yeh, I am in it to fight to win.

Done observerships at Hopkins and UPenn with Surgeons, and am now looking at lining up electives at NYU (GSurg) and Albert Einstein Yeshiva (GSurg). But again, I'm reading stories of Pre-lim guys getting cut after 2 years, or 1 year. And like I said before, Categorical for J1 Visa looks very slim (unless I have mad contacts or drop 250 on Step 1). Another issue I am realizing is that if I want to do a fellowship afterwards, I need to match into a half-decent place (which makes things harder as usual).

We'll see.

If you are interested in surgery then do surgery. Fight to win, hedging is for radiology and lawyers. Go all in for surgery. As long as your visa is appropriate. Because even if you match for a categorical spot and have the wrong visa, they will pull your spot.

Agree with other post, some schools are IMG friendly, some not so friendly. Here are a couple of places I know who have graduated IMGs.
- Univ of Iowa...has had a few recent IMGs graduate.
- Howard University.
- A big shocker and maybe just partly friendly, but University of Washington. They had a brutal 2 year prelim program for IMGs and at the end of 2 years you either were cut loose (most prelims) or allowed to continue (rare). Disclaimer: the ones allowed to continue that I met were surgical attendings in their native country doing a 2nd residency in the states.

 

[thedrjojo]

I refer to the handy NRMP "Charting the Match"
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

Independent Applicants (which include FMG's, DO's, US Carribeans, and Nonsenior US Grads... some groups do better than others) there were 218 that matched and 512 that did not... so about 1/3rd that applied ended up matching somewhere...

As far as scores go, the line showing the probability of matching related to USMLE Step 1 score is essentially a straight line, going from 15% at just passing, to close to 50% for >260.

I don't know if you can go from not thinking you will match anywhere for Surg to going to a "good" place for im... Numbers for medicine aren't greatly better (2113 matched and 2792 did not, 43% compared to 30% for GSurg) and you still will have difficulty getting a good place in IM... and many IM fellowships are uber competitive because of numbers, even moreso than any surgical fellowships (I think cards is harder to crack than peds surgery, but I might be wrong)... plus if you will hate being an internist, whats the point in doing that if you really want to do surgery.

And to surgres88, while it is good to have a few recent IMGs graduate, that might not represent current standings... take for example UMDNJ-NJMS... graduating a few IMG's this year, has a history of sending IMG's into Surg Onc(one last year to Roswell Park, another one the year before that to John Wayne, I believe another to Fox Chase a few years back), Vascular, this year CT at MGH... many current PGY3's and PGY4's are IMG's too.. but starting with the current PGY2 class, they are no longer even interviewing IMG's for categorical spots (except prelims I believe)... so while looking at that would be great encouragement for people, it could be inaccurate. Plus, did those IMG's get there via categorical, or were they prelims kept on/taken from another prelim spot?

Morristown Memorial in New Jersey has a few IMG's (mainly carribeans though), Bronx-Lebanon does too, St. Joseph's has some DO's (I know not FMG's, but shows the program is friendly to non-us allopathics)... Lenox Hill is FMG friendly I believe... St. Barnabus in New Jersey is also IMG (St. Georges in particular) friendly... they are out there, rarely though will you find a university program though

 

[Blitz2006]

Great post, thanks for that.

I agree, for the IMG graduates, we'll never know their paths. For all we know, they could be PhD students who had 3 papers published and did 2 years of Pre-Lim before graduating PGY-5. Who knows. I just know that I'm just an average BSc student that will be graduating with British MD. No publications. Some observership experience, and potentially elective experience. But nothing fancy apart from that. Taking Step 1 later this year, but I highly doubt I'll crank out >230.

Yeh, some of the IMG friendly schools that I've found are:

Bronx-Lebanon
SUNY Downstate (Brooklyn)
St. Barnabas
Lenox-Hill
St. Lukes Roosevelt
Union Memorial
Long Island Jewish

Is it easier then, to match into categorical PGY-1 into a community hospital? I really dont know many community hospitals.

I refer to the handy NRMP "Charting the Match"
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

Independent Applicants (which include FMG's, DO's, US Carribeans, and Nonsenior US Grads... some groups do better than others) there were 218 that matched and 512 that did not... so about 1/3rd that applied ended up matching somewhere...

As far as scores go, the line showing the probability of matching related to USMLE Step 1 score is essentially a straight line, going from 15% at just passing, to close to 50% for >260.

I don't know if you can go from not thinking you will match anywhere for Surg to going to a "good" place for im... Numbers for medicine aren't greatly better (2113 matched and 2792 did not, 43% compared to 30% for GSurg) and you still will have difficulty getting a good place in IM... and many IM fellowships are uber competitive because of numbers, even moreso than any surgical fellowships (I think cards is harder to crack than peds surgery, but I might be wrong)... plus if you will hate being an internist, whats the point in doing that if you really want to do surgery.

And to surgres88, while it is good to have a few recent IMGs graduate, that might not represent current standings... take for example UMDNJ-NJMS... graduating a few IMG's this year, has a history of sending IMG's into Surg Onc(one last year to Roswell Park, another one the year before that to John Wayne, I believe another to Fox Chase a few years back), Vascular, this year CT at MGH... many current PGY3's and PGY4's are IMG's too.. but starting with the current PGY2 class, they are no longer even interviewing IMG's for categorical spots (except prelims I believe)... so while looking at that would be great encouragement for people, it could be inaccurate. Plus, did those IMG's get there via categorical, or were they prelims kept on/taken from another prelim spot?

Morristown Memorial in New Jersey has a few IMG's (mainly carribeans though), Bronx-Lebanon does too, St. Joseph's has some DO's (I know not FMG's, but shows the program is friendly to non-us allopathics)... Lenox Hill is FMG friendly I believe... St. Barnabus in New Jersey is also IMG (St. Georges in particular) friendly... they are out there, rarely though will you find a university program though

 

[thedrjojo]

I must dispute your SUNY Downstate just from my interview experience... they stated at my interview they received 1000+ applicants, of those 200+ US Seniors, and of those, offered 120 or so interviews... I took that to imply they only interviewed from the US Senior pool, but I might be mistaken.

 

[agranulocytosis]

What about the non-NY programs? Is it just a simple fact that statistically speaking, one would be more likely to match in a NY program than anywhere else? I've got my sights primarily set on the east coast, midwest and south (pretty much everywhere except California and the desert southwest)

 

[Blitz2006]

Yeh I'm just playing the odds game. Nyc appears to be the easiest for imgs to match. That's why I want to do my elective at either Mt. Sinai, Albert Einstein or nyu.

But I'm looking at non nyc programs as well such as Jefferson and Baylor.

Any thoughts on uva? I have a potential elective lined up thwre.

 

[Gentle]

Yeh I'm just playing the odds game. Nyc appears to be the easiest for imgs to match. That's why I want to do my elective at either Mt. Sinai, Albert Einstein or nyu.

But I'm looking at non nyc programs as well such as Jefferson and Baylor.

Any thoughts on uva? I have a potential elective lined up thwre.

Given that you're an IMG, I don't think you have much of a chance at UVA. It's a pretty competitive academic program, especially given that you don't have any research in your CV. I think your focus should be towards community programs. I am a strong believer in taking chances and see what happens so I'm by no way implying that you should not consider academic programs. One good thing that you can do for yourself at this point is to
- Do great on Step 1
- do great and impress attendings during your electives; great LORs from big places do have an impact sometimes in ways that you won't believe. While it's important to look at places where you, as an IMG, will be applying come Sept, I think what is more important is putting in the effort to do well in the above categories.

Goodluck
-Gentle-

 

[Winged Scapula]

Blitz - I agree with Gentle.

UVA would be pretty competitive for AMGs. You've only listed university academic hospitals. Are you applying to any community or university affiliated programs?

After all, I agree that you shouldn't give up on surgery without even trying but you're shooting yourself in the foot if you are only looking at programs at which you might not have a good chance to match.

 

[Blitz2006]

Right, maybe I should do an elective at a Community Hospital? I'll be honest, I dont know of any Community Hospitals that would take visiting students for GSurg electives, let alone for residency.

Anyone got any suggestions?

I also have a shot and doing 2 electives at Hopkins, and will get very strong LORs. Only problem is they are Neurosurgeon and Orthopod....not sure how that will go over with GSurg programs.

Blitz - I agree with Gentle.

UVA would be pretty competitive for AMGs. You've only listed university academic hospitals. Are you applying to any community or university affiliated programs?



After all, I agree that you shouldn't give up on surgery without even trying but you're shooting yourself in the foot if you are only looking at programs at which you might not have a good chance to match.

 

[Buzz Me]

Agreed that you should be shooting for community programs - and applying widely. You don't want to limit yourself to doing electives at strong academic programs.

 

[bulls eye]

Right, maybe I should do an elective at a Community Hospital? I'll be honest, I dont know of any Community Hospitals that would take visiting students for GSurg electives, let alone for residency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hospitals_in_New_York_City


this is list of hospitals in NYC. Search for their site and contact them to know whether or not they offer electives to visiting students.