Really confused and would appreciate some advice

[schizo22]

Hi all,
I looked to see if anyone had posted a similar question but I couldn't really find what I was searching for. I hope someone maybe able to share their opinions. I received very good advice from a moderator on here but I still feel really confused.

My long term goals are to be a clinical psychologist and an independent schizophrenia researcher (just cutting it short). My application was strong..until I took the GRE and bombed it. This kept me from applying to many of my top choices. I ended up applying to 1 PhD, 4 PsyDs and am currently applying to 3-4 masters programs. I got rejected from all the schools but I did get an interview for one PsyD program. I think I have a good shot of getting in. I also have an interview at a masters program in Indianapolis. I have heard good things about this PsyD program, but I feel very conflicted about whether or not I should get a masters and try to become more competitive (get more research experience and study longer for the GRE.) I am scared getting a PsyD would be the wrong choice, or that I am desperate to get into a doctorate because of how competitive this whole process is, especially applying for clinical psych programs.

The Pros are that it is not a far commute to Boston, and I see that there are many good practicum and internship opportunities in that area. The cons are the amount of debt I am facing once I graduate (150K- not including living expenses, travel, books, etc.), possibly not receiving the research experience I need to be competitive for post docs/internships, and their schedule ( they are a one day a week program). I am also afraid of turning down a doctorate (if accepted) enrolling in a masters then not getting in anywhere afterward. I am so determined to reach my goals and I feel pretty bummed when I think of not being able to research what I want. I have always wanted to get into a PhD, but now I feel I should just take what is offered (even if I am in debt). Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the rambling.

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[irish80122]

If you want to be a researcher (though I must admit I don't know what you mean by being a "independent schizophrenia researcher") then why would you spend all the time to get a doctoral degree that doesn't include research? In my opinion, you would be far better off getting a solid research master's degree and trying to get into a PhD after your master's. I would strongly encourage you not to go and earn a degree that puts you in a great deal of debt and does not train you for what you want to do just because you got into the program!

 

[erg923]

I'm not sure what an "independent schizophrenia researcher" means, but suffice to say that a kick starting research career with a PsyD is very difficult.

 

[schizo22]

Sorry if that sounds confusing. A while ago I was speaking to a POI about my goals and he said "it sounds like you are focused on becoming an independent schizophrenia researcher, which is what students in my lab are pursuing." Anyways, I keep getting mixed advice which has led to me being really confused. My friend received an offer from the same PsyD program, and when she asked about research, they told her she would be able to do research, but she just has to find the opportunities. Apparently it is possible, just more difficult? I guess I am just scared that this field gets more competitive every year, and by the time I finish a masters and reapply, I run the risk of not getting in anywhere.

 

[psych844]

Correct me if I'm wrong..but it sounds like you want some reassurance after doing poorly in the GRE? I haven't done the GRE but plan to this summer. Maybe you are curious if it is possible to do better at the GRE if you were to try again? how long did you study? what materials did you use? what sections did you struggle with? Maybe if you give us those answers someone with more experience can help you.

 

[schizo22]

I studied off and on for a month. The night before I took the exam I couldn't get any sleep and felt an overwhelming amount of anxiety during the test. I couldn't even eat breakfast, or any of the food I had taken with me. I found it too hard to concentrate and ended up scoring very poorly. It was pretty bad. I do have trouble with geometry as well and found a lot of that on the test which made it worse. I ordered the Manhattan prep books and the Barron's GRE essential words. I do plan to study for 3-4 months and retake it. I think I can do better the next time around with some hardcore studying and some stress management. Then after speaking to professors/ friends, I start over thinking and feel that I should see what the PsyD has to offer in terms of research/ practicums. The cost of the program is what overwhelms me more than anything.

 

[applyingtograd]

If I were you, I would retake the GRE and spend the next year or two in either a research oriented masters program or working in a research lab.

 

[Member1928]

I think maybe the language came from the 'independent investigator' verbiage that is often used in the soft money world.

Regardless, if you want to become a researcher who studies schizophrenia there are many roads up that mountain. Unfortunately the road marked 'Psy.D.' is rife with rock slides, avalanches, and dead ends.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Just to be clear, you have research experience currently? If not…that should be your #1 focus, then after at least a year look back to taking the GREs and re-applying. By the time you go for interviews you'll have two years of research experience and a better handle on various aspects of research.

 

[erg923]

But you aren't talking about just "doing research" in grad school (which an obvious part of a doctorate), you are alluding to pulling grants and a place to support that work and employ you, no? In that case, I can think of only a handful of PsyD (out of 50,ooo?) who do this. Unless you vacation at lake woebegone, sounds like a loosing ticket to me.

 

[schizo22]

I appreciate all of your responses and advice. I am considering going the masters route and reapplying.

I do have research experience. I have been working on an independent project for the past 2 semesters, and I also have experience in another lab. I graduated in December but I still go because we're collecting data. My faculty mentor advised me to go to the interview at the PsyD program but to also look for other options that are less costly. I just keep hearing these horror stories of people who have applied to 10-15 programs and never get in, even with pretty impressive GRE scores/research experience. Another professor asked if I was interested in Experimental or Cognitive Neuroscience PhDs that are less competitive, but I don't want to give up clinical practicums, or getting licensed as a clinician. I would still like to give therapy, and I do have other interests (personality disorders and mood disorders). However, my main goal is to find more effective treatments for schizophrenics, especially ones with negative symptoms. It might sound too ambitious or unrealistic, but I am very passionate about it.

 

[schizo22]

Erg- Yes, that is what I want for myself in the future. I thought that you would get to that point (with a PhD or PsyD) as long as you publish, and do research in your area of interest? That's what I have been told in the past.

 

[erg923]

Erg- Yes, that is what I want for myself in the future. I thought that you would get to that point (with a PhD or PsyD) as long as you publish, and do research in your area of interest? That's what I have been told in the past.

Possible vs probable.

What's the pub rate of the faculty you want to work with in this PsyD program? What are this persons grad students doing 5 years post doc on average. Does he/she have track record of students working in academia?

 

[erg923]

If you want to "invent" new treatments for schizophrenia then you are going into the wrong business. I would recommend a graduate degree in pharmacy, biochemistry, biology, or clinical neuroscience.

 

[schizo22]

There is one I would like to work with (he doesn't do research in psychosis or anything, but his research is still interesting). I looked through his CV and he has a lot of funding and is the director of a research center there. I think I saw that he has 20 pubs on researchgate. I didn't pay attention to how many there are.

 

[erg923]

And how many are authored by his grad students? What do his grad students do after their doctorates?

 

[schizo22]

I'm sorry but I don't believe that a career in clinical psychology isn't for me because I would like to find novel treatments for schizophrenics. As I have said before, I would still like to give therapy and help those with various mental illnesses- which includes schizophrenia. Many of the labs I have looked at in clinical programs that focus on schizophrenia also include neuropsychology training and focus a lot on researching effective treatments for severe mental illnesses.

 

[schizo22]

I remember reading that their students go onto either work at hospitals, some get post docs, or some work with other agencies. I have looked through their student data and it says they have licensure percentage of 70% and APA internship match rate of 79%.

 

[LM02]

This may sound glib, but what's the rush? If you can get into a PsyD program now, more research experience and/or a research-oriented masters certainly wouldn't get in the way of you getting into one again, if you ultimately cannot make yourself competitive for a research-oriented PhD. But based upon your interests and goals, I think you would benefit from taking the time to try to make yourself more competitive for the PhD route. As already stated, this time could be spent in a research-oriented master's program, but also could be spent in a full-time research assistant position. Both will give you time to hone your skills and interests, and more importantly, to study for and retake the GRE. The RA route will at least pay you while you do this, and give you some exposure to what it is like to work in a professional environment, whereas the master's will not really provide opportunities for either of these things.

I have long since graduated, but I entered my (research-heavy, fully funded clinical PhD) graduate program at age 23, after two years in a full-time research job. And you know what? I remained the youngest person in my entire graduate program until I entered my fourth year. If you just graduated, do not feel the need to go somewhere just for the sake of getting in. I understand that school is what you're used to, and you are probably watching lots of your friends make plans for law school or med school. But doctoral study is a very different animal, and entering straight out of undergraduate - while it does still happen for some - is not typically the norm. It might feel strange to "take the time," but it will pay off in numerous ways, and I think you'll find the experience to be quite normative within the larger field. Good luck!

 

[schizo22]

LM02- That does sound like a good plan and I was looking at various research assistant jobs but they're all out of state. I was thinking about moving and maybe staying in an RA position if the master's did not work out. I am actually turning 24, and I have friends applying/getting acceptances who are younger than I am. I sort of felt like I needed to keep up. I know I need the time to study for the GRE, which has been the major crutch keeping me out of most of these programs. A higher score could open up more doors and more research experience will definitely help. Thanks so much for the advice.

And thanks to everyone else who responded.

 

[boo_radley]

LM02- That does sound like a good plan and I was looking at various research assistant jobs but they're all out of state. I was thinking about moving and maybe staying in an RA position if the master's did not work out. I am actually turning 24, and I have friends applying/getting acceptances who are younger than I am. I sort of felt like I needed to keep up. I know I need the time to study for the GRE, which has been the major crutch keeping me out of most of these programs. A higher score could open up more doors and more research experience will definitely help. Thanks so much for the advice.

And thanks to everyone else who responded.

Hey Schizo, I thought I would offer you my perspective as someone who just got accepted to a fully funded PhD program and share some advice I received that really helped me. I took time after graduation and got a job as an RA to gain more research experience and make myself more competitive. While I could have gotten into non-funded programs last year, going that route would've had serious long term implications. By waiting a year and going to a funded program I saved myself at least $200k, will get higher quality training, and be more likely to get higher quality placements later on. The PsyD is a clinically focused degree, which would not be optimal training for a research career. I highly suggest finding an opportunity to get more research experience (paid or volunteer) as well as taking more time to study for the GRE. Don't worry about what other people are doing, the best thing you can do right now is to take a little time to set yourself up for long term success.

 

[schizo22]

Hi boo_radley, congrats on getting accepted! If you don't mind me asking, where did you work as an RA? You can PM me if you'd like. I live in Florida, and the majority of ones I find are in Baltimore or other areas up north. I was always wondering whether getting a masters or an RA position would be more helpful. I do need to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing, because I have a different 'agenda', I guess. Great advice from you and everyone else. Thank you!

 

[erg923]

I remember reading that their students go onto either work at hospitals, some get post docs, or some work with other agencies.

So, they all have practice careers, yea? That does not seem to be the career that you want.

 

[erg923]

.

 

[erg923]

I'm sorry but I don't believe that a career in clinical psychology isn't for me because I would like to find novel treatments for schizophrenics.

Psychotherapy for schizophrenia is well established-there are both CBT and dynamic models that are well established as effective adjuncts.

But given the biology of schizophrenia, advances in treatments and prevention are going to be medical, in which psychologists have will likely only have a peripheral role. However, if you are interested in in exploring the pathophysiology (m-pathway, HPA axis, neuronal development). epidemiology, and/or cognitive aspects, then psychologists have much more of a role.

 

[schizo22]

Erg, I might not have been very clear from the beginning so that's my fault. Yes, I am interested in the cognitive aspects of schizophrenia and other schizophrenia spectrum disorders (like schizotypal). For example, the independent project I'm working on involves signal detection ability in those who score high on fantasy proneness and the schizotypal personality questionnaire. I know there are many well established therapies for those who suffer from schizophrenia, but from what I have read in some articles there are not many effective therapies for negative symptoms.

 

[schizo22]

http://psy.uncg.edu/graduate/ph-d-experimental/

This program was one of the PhDs I was interested in applying to next year, or maybe after finishing a masters. Do you think applying to their masters program would help me get into their cognitive PhD? There is a researcher who focuses on Schizotypal personality and cognition.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Talk w a staff member at the program and ask how many students have matriculated from the MS to the PhD program in the past 3yrs or 5yrs.

 

[psychforlife0402]

Just a word of advice for when you eventually get an interview for one of these programs. Don't say "I want to do research on schizophrenics" Say "I want to do research on people with schizophrenia". It may seem like a small thing or like it's too PC, but believe me, as someone who specializes in schizophrenia, to call people "schizophrenics" sounds a bit out of touch and not so empathetic. My two cents.