reapplicant -- now onto MSTP

[luckyducky87]

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hey guys, I applied during the summer of 2008 (the summer before my senior year in college), and didn't quite make it. I had 9 interviews, which led to 5 waitlists, none of which I got out of. They were of all ranges, from VCU to Duke, and I couldn't quite pinpoint what my "weakness" was, I suppose. It could be that:

- my MCAT was on the lower end (31P with a 9 in P)
- little clinical experiences (2 years of volunteering + 35 hours of shadowing)
- rec letters (unfortunately, I know my non-sci letter was a weak one... and potentially my prehealth committee letter too)
- interview skills
- or just that I seemed to divergent in my interests (I was a pretty serious musician, and every interview I went to, I got asked "why not music?" and perhaps I didn't do a great job convincing them)

My GPA is fine I think (overall 3.8, sci 3.7 from a top public school).

I am in the midst of taking 2 years of (after graduating in 2009), and I've been doing basic sciences research in an HHMI lab under a PI who is one of the top guys in the field, who mainly publishes in nothing less than Nature/Science/Cell/etc.

My question is -- with this new research experience + improved MCAT (IF I can improve by a significant bit; if nothing else, I really do believe the 9 in the P was not an accurate reflection...) -- do you think I might be competitive enough for an MSTP?

I'm really loving research, enough to brave into the MSTP application cycle, but I'm not sure if I'll be competitive enough for it if I couldn't even make it to the MD programs last year... (this is with the assumption that MSTP applications are even more competitive than the MD programs...?)

PS - I don't really have any research-related awards I received as an undergrad or summer research programs I attended... Not sure what the chances are that I'll get a publication out before the app cycle (2010) because I'm currently working on a structural biology project (xray crystallography), where it's kind of a hit or a miss...

I also haven't been able to get started on any clinical experiences after I started the lab job because there just hasn't been time... being in the lab 50-60 hours a week :-/

 

[FIREitUP]

MSTP is magnitudes more competitive, and getting a 99th percentile MCAT is much easier said than done. furthermore, I don't think it is worth it to spend an extra few years getting that potential publication because in the end, chances are you will have wasted your time. I suggest applying MD again and improving your application ( you seem to know where you slipped up). good luck.

 

[teenmachinery1]

My feeling is, if you've done substantial and sustained research work, with regular M.D. stats (mcat in 30s, gpa in 3.6+), you can get into MSTP or at least M.D./PhD.

Maybe not at top 10, but it's not "magnitudes" harder than m.d.

imo

 

[luckyducky87]

MSTP is magnitudes more competitive, and getting a 99th percentile MCAT is much easier said than done. furthermore, I don't think it is worth it to spend an extra few years getting that potential publication because in the end, chances are you will have wasted your time. I suggest applying MD again and improving your application ( you seem to know where you slipped up). good luck.

Well, I wasn't quite targeting to get a 99th percentile on the MCAT yet 🙂

And also, my plans to take 2 years off are already set in stone. I won't be taking off less or more than that, as I just graduated in May 2009 and I will be applying again next summer (of 2010). I'm not planning on elongating my stay in the current lab just so I can get a potential publication out or anything, so whatever happens in the next year and a half, that'll have to do.

So I guess my main differences b/w the previous app cycle (back in summer of 2008) and my next one (planned to be in summer of 2010) will be:
- significantly more research experience
- hopefully a new and improved MCAT score
- (i am hoping to squeeze in some clinicals beginning in the new year since... I do work in a building adjacent to like 3 hospitals)

So I guess I'm wondering if these differences might gear me up for the competitive MSTP application cycle...

Do many of the MD/PhD programs consider you for MD-only programs if they don't see you good enough for their MD/PhD programs? I'm wondering how risky it is to apply to only 10-20 MD/PhD programs (and no MD).

 

[URHere]

My advice on the MCAT front is not to retake unless you can devote the time to some heavy studying. I got a 31 my first time around, and attempted to retake while I was way too busy with my MS thesis (I was in lab about 50 hours/week, and working part time in a restaurant) - my score went up by a whopping 1 point, and my verbal and physical science scores actually dropped. Explaining that second score was a huge thorn in my side during my application cycle, and I would suggest that you do everything in your power to avoid landing yourself in that situation. That being said, if you do have the time then you should definitely work on your score. At many schools, a score in the low 30s will raise some eyebrows for an MD/PhD applicant.

Aside from that, if you already have 2 years of clinical volunteering and some shadowing hours under your belt, I wouldn't waste my time piling up more clinic hours. Many MD/PhD programs care far less about your clinical experience than MD programs do.

I guess these are my biggest questions for you: did you have any research experience during undergrad? And, what exactly is your role in your current lab? If you are currently working as a tech, then you are probably spending a good deal of your time doing supporting work for other researchers' projects, and little time handling a project independently. If you want to apply MD/PhD, it is important to have experience with aspects of research (both mental and procedural - planning projects, carrying them out, presenting and writing, etc). If that is not your current role in lab, try to work your way into that role.

 

[luckyducky87]

My advice on the MCAT front is not to retake unless you can devote the time to some heavy studying.

Yes, I am certainly trying to avoid being in that situation :-/

I guess these are my biggest questions for you: did you have any research experience during undergrad? And, what exactly is your role in your current lab? If you are currently working as a tech, then you are probably spending a good deal of your time doing supporting work for other researchers' projects, and little time handling a project independently. If you want to apply MD/PhD, it is important to have experience with aspects of research (both mental and procedural - planning projects, carrying them out, presenting and writing, etc). If that is not your current role in lab, try to work your way into that role.

I did have about a year of research experience in undergrad, but not something I'd really want to even talk about. It was a chemistry lab (no clinical relevance, really. Just running... organic synthetic reactions), and with so much other commitments during college, I didn't quite shine in this lab. The PI was also kinda crazy, and after consulting many people who know this PI, I have concluded that I will be better off not asking her for a LoR... So I'm debating whether I even want this on my application or not.

Currently, the work is more biology focused... I certainly haven't just been doing dishes, ordering products, and making LB media for other people, and 95% of my time has been spent on benchwork/paper-reading.

At the moment (I've been here about 3.5 months), I am in a way supporting another person's project :-/ Well, there's a mainstream project this grad student is working on, and he "gave me" a related project that's a smaller scale project than the main one he's working on. However, he's been the brain behind the current experiments, where he'd suggest what I should try next and give me protocols/plasmids (he's done some pilot experiments about a year ago, before he moved onto the bigger project; so the mainstream protocol is already set up for this purification project... we just have to optimize it at this point).


Perhaps this is diverging a little bit, but I'm finding it hard to move beyond where I am, as far as "role" goes 🙁 I come with very little background in biological research, and being in a fast-paced, hardcore lab like this where we're racing against the clock all the time (our competitors are chugging out papers like crazy), I don't really have an opportunity to plan out my own experiments and learn through my own failures, especially since this graduate student already has soooo much experience with this particular system and knows what to try next (or what's not worth trying).

Will this be disadvantageous for me? I mean, really, I am learning a whole lot -- everything from just basic lab techniques to lab dynamics and how people "think" in an advanced lab like this (though I'm not yet in a position where I can think like them). Even just sitting in journal club meetings add new sparks to my knowledge bank, where I just keep thinking "woah, I didn't even question that from this publication... but you're right, I guess the logic doesn't quite add up." Also, I will have to present the work I've been doing at group meeting (like everyone else), present at journal clubs, etc...

But in answer to your question, I guess I'm not quite working on an "independent project" or planning out my experiments at this stage... and I'm not sure when I'll ever get to that point in a place like this!

 

[Neuronix]

It sounds to me like you didn't get in the first time primarily due to a combination of 31 MCAT and 1 year of research experience. Remember the admissions guide benchmarks. Contrary to the beliefs of some, your primary application doesn't stop mattering after you interview. There may have been an element of your letters and interview skills as well. With 2 additional years of research any element of commitment is going to go away. Why do you think your premed committee letter may have been bad? You need to talk to them and maybe get new interviews later if this is the case. I don't think you necessarily need 2 years out with a new MCAT score, but you said that's what you're definitely doing.

If you add several years of research and bring your MCAT up to over 36 (96th-97th percentile) you sound like you'll be in excellent shape. If you take 2 years out, it sounds like your MCAT score may expire, so you'll likely have to retake. The advice of the other posters is right on... Make sure you take plenty of time to prepare. I always recommend a review course if you can afford it.

Ask your undergrad PI for a *favorable* LOR if at all possible. Ask whatever service your letters go through if the letter is suitable for inclusion in your application. Make sure that source understands good and bad letters and would tell you if it were bad. You don't know if it'll be a bad letter unless you ask.

And here's Neuronix's reality check of the day. Not everyone can get a lab position where they're independent much of the time. I certainly couldn't. No PI was willing to pay me to start my own project. Make the best of things, stick to scientific experiments, try to avoid scut, and really work hard to understand what you're doing and why. Don't ever point out your own flaws on an application. The other few students at my undergrad who went on to MSTP had fathers in the Bio department or in industry and thus had access to labs I didn't. My dad is a truck driver! What was I gonna research, tires?!

Do people still watch the Gilmore Girls? I think this should be your avatar:

 

[luckyducky87]

It sounds to me like you didn't get in the first time primarily due to a combination of 31 MCAT and 1 year of research experience.

First time around, I applied only to MD programs. So I'm not sure that the 1 year of research should have mattered; but definitely for some of the schools I applied to, my MCAT score was far below average...

Why do you think your premed committee letter may have been bad? You need to talk to them and maybe get new interviews later if this is the case.

Yes, it looks like I'll have to do a phone interview with my undergrad institution (since now I am many states away) and get a fresh new letter. Except it won't be totally fresh since they will have access to my old prehealth letter as well.

Eh, I guess I don't mean quite "bad," but I think I did a bad job explaining "why medicine"/"how did you decide medicine" at the prehealth interview (which is how they got to "know you" so that they can write you a letter), and I think this may have showed a little on the letter, as I found out from one of my later interviews last year.

If you take 2 years out, it sounds like your MCAT score may expire, so you'll likely have to retake.

Hm, I'll be retaking it March 2010, and applying during the summer of 2010 (expected matriculation 2011), so this should be okay. My first MCAT, though, was taken in May 2008. But even that's probably still okay.

Ask your undergrad PI for a *favorable* LOR if at all possible. Ask whatever service your letters go through if the letter is suitable for inclusion in your application. Make sure that source understands good and bad letters and would tell you if it were bad. You don't know if it'll be a bad letter unless you ask.

At my undergrad institution, we're on our own to compile our letter packets through Interfolio, so no one (including the prehealth advisors) gets to see any of my professors'/PI's letters before they get sent to the adcoms. I'm not sure that Interfolio has such a service where they screen some letters for you :-/ I'm kinda torn about this PI. I had a really bad experience in that lab the summer before & after my junior year + the fall semester of my junior year. And I was so bitter about her and the experience (she thought I was totally uncommitted as well as incompetent... and there was a financial mixup triangle b/w her, me, and the department, which went really really badly) that I proceeded to get an A+ in her course my senior year, which was known to be a beast course.

However, when this course was over, and I was looking for research jobs, I asked her if she could write some positive reference letters. She pretty much said "sure, I can see what I can do to finesse the short stay in the lab." So... this kinda made me think that it'd be wise to not ask her since she seems to have residual bitterness from the experience as well...

And here's Neuronix's reality check of the day. Not everyone can get a lab position where they're independent much of the time. I certainly couldn't. No PI was willing to pay me to start my own project. Make the best of things, stick to scientific experiments, try to avoid scut, and really work hard to understand what you're doing and why.

Haha you're totally right. I was actually happy that I got to do benchwork rather than pour agar plates and autoclave things for everyone else all day. And yeah, no PI in this guy's position will let a novice like me work on a totally independent project, thought out and carried out all by me. He has too many competing labs for that kind of leisure...

I think this should be your avatar

Hahaha I will keep that in mind! I need to go avatar-hunting 🙂

 

[Neuronix]

First time around, I applied only to MD programs. So I'm not sure that the 1 year of research should have mattered; but definitely for some of the schools I applied to, my MCAT score was far below average...

oic... Hmmm... What state are you a resident of? I bet with a few application tweaks you could get in on an MD reapp.

It may be worth it to fly back to your undergrad to reinterview if they allow this. I would call them and see what your options are since you got a mediocre letter the first time.

She pretty much said "sure, I can see what I can do to finesse the short stay in the lab." So... this kinda made me think that it'd be wise to not ask her since she seems to have residual bitterness from the experience as well...

Doesn't sound necessarily like you'd get a bad letter to me. It'd be better to have it in there if it's not bad. I don't know what to tell you about how to secure this sort of peace of mind when going through Interfolio. I wonder if you could ask them if they'd tell you what your best letters are? I don't see anything on their site about this. I guess your undergrad institution won't handle this for you.

And yeah, no PI in this guy's position will let a novice like me work on a totally independent project, thought out and carried out all by me. He has too many competing labs for that kind of leisure...

You may get that amount of trust after some time. Just keep plugging away if you really want to do two years of research.

I need to go avatar-hunting 🙂

I have a fondness for ducks--well, ducks and corgis. So QUACK.

It sounds like you know what you're doing now. Good luck!

 

[gstrub]

They were of all ranges, from VCU to Duke, and I couldn't quite pinpoint what my "weakness" was, I suppose. It could be that I vastly underestimated the competitiveness of VCU/MCV and grossly overestimated my credentials.

Fixed that one for you. Good luck on round two.