Received an invite, but not enough interview spots?!

[geripsyched]

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I received an invitation to interview on one of Brown's two research days. Per the email they said that the first day was nearly full, but that the second day was open. I sent an email to them less than 90 minutes after receiving this invitation. I asked for the second interview day. I get an email back about 2 hours later saying "sorry, but the second day was now full, but that there was still a spot available on the first day". So I emailed back in less than 15 minutes saying, "sure the first day works fine". I then get an email back saying, "sorry but the first day is now full, we can put you on the waitlist... why don't you come on a non-research day".

I am a little shocked by this exchange - why would a program send more research invites out than they have spots? Especially since I emailed them promptly back... I doubt that I am the only interviewee in this situation. We have so few things to judge programs by that are not polished brochures/websites, one of which is the quality of our exchanges with them. My concern is that an interaction like this may be an indication of larger, more significant organizational/logistical issues that may be present at a residency program. Is this interpretation an over-reaction? Have others had similar experiences with other programs?

 

[twright]

I received an invitation to interview on one of Brown's two research days. Per the email they said that the first day was nearly full, but that the second day was open. I sent an email to them less than 90 minutes after receiving this invitation. I asked for the second interview day. I get an email back about 2 hours later saying "sorry, but the second day was now full, but that there was still a spot available on the first day". So I emailed back in less than 15 minutes saying, "sure the first day works fine". I then get an email back saying, "sorry but the first day is now full, we can put you on the waitlist... why don't you come on a non-research day".

I am a little shocked by this exchange - why would a program send more research invites out than they have spots? Especially since I emailed them promptly back... I doubt that I am the only interviewee in this situation. We have so few things to judge programs by that are not polished brochures/websites, one of which is the quality of our exchanges with them. My concern is that an interaction like this may be an indication of larger, more significant organizational/logistical issues that may be present at a residency program. Is this interpretation an over-reaction? Have others had similar experiences with other programs?

Seems a little weird, but it's also quite possible that this is specific to their research track.

Does Brown fill its research track through a separate match? If not, then I'm guessing that the 'research day' interview is more like a bonus for residents interested in research. i.e., more like UCSF (which does not fill its research track through the match) rather than Stanford (which does -- I think). They probably do have more expressions of interest in research than they can accommodate, which would explain your first-come, first-served experience.

 

[psychattending]

90 minutes & 15 minutes sound pretty quick for filling up.

Most programs probably at some point do give out more invitations than interview slots. This is mainly because applicants rarely decline an interview offer but instead just do not respond to the offer. If after a couple of weeks I have not heard back from an applicant, I have my secretary contact them again (there always seems to be 1-2% of applicants that do not get the first email). If after the second email, I still have not gotten an email response I will then invite additional people to fill up those interview slots. Doing it this way I only rarely have to put an applicant on a wait list. If he/she does go on it, he/she usually still gets an interview because there is usually a big wave of cancellations come January once you guys figure out that you applied to way too many places given the financial and time constraints of interviewing as well as the realization that you will probably get one of your top choices. Unfortunately applicants tend not to inform programs until relatively late that they are canceling their interview. The AADPRT policy says that applicants should give us 2 weeks notice. We usually get much less notice, though (I have had people even call us the day before). This is unfortunate (not to mention unprofessional) since it then becomes a hardship for another applicant to easily (and cheaply) get here for the interview.

 

[geripsyched]

Thank you both for your feedback! Twright - I think you are right in that Brown's research track does not have a separate match. All the same, the invitation letter did say that:

"Based on a recent review of your application by the Selection Committee of the Brown University Psychiatry Residency Program, I am pleased to offer you an opportunity to interview on one of two research days..."

This makes it sound as though the research day is not just an open invitation for all potential interviewees expressing an interest in research. If that were the case, it would make much more sense for the research days to fill up quickly. It appears rather that they simply sent out too many invitations for a party with limited seating. Not the best first impression to make, but probably not quite bad enough to cause a program with an otherwise good reputation to be put on the DNI/DNR (don't interview/don't rank) list. Just makes me nervous about how they would handle issues like scheduling/vacation time for the residents. Residency seems difficult enough without having to deal with logistical issues - the more I can focus on education/clinical development/patient care, the better. If there are any more hiccups, I'll probably have to DNI/DNR this program (assuming I can give them at least 2 weeks notice!)

 

[TexasPhysician]

I always called to pick a day. That eliminates this problem.

 

[twright]

Thank you both for your feedback! Twright - I think you are right in that Brown's research track does not have a separate match. All the same, the invitation letter did say that:

"Based on a recent review of your application by the Selection Committee of the Brown University Psychiatry Residency Program, I am pleased to offer you an opportunity to interview on one of two research days..."

This makes it sound as though the research day is not just an open invitation for all potential interviewees expressing an interest in research. If that were the case, it would make much more sense for the research days to fill up quickly. It appears rather that they simply sent out too many invitations for a party with limited seating. Not the best first impression to make, but probably not quite bad enough to cause a program with an otherwise good reputation to be put on the DNI/DNR (don't interview/don't rank) list. Just makes me nervous about how they would handle issues like scheduling/vacation time for the residents. Residency seems difficult enough without having to deal with logistical issues - the more I can focus on education/clinical development/patient care, the better. If there are any more hiccups, I'll probably have to DNI/DNR this program (assuming I can give them at least 2 weeks notice!)

For a research track with no separate Match where a specific interview day is set aside largely as a courtesy for residents who seem like they would be research oriented, it is totally reasonable for the program director to issue more invitations than available slots.

At many programs, if you are on an inpatient rotation like consults or ward psych, generally vacation days will be negotiated with the chief resident or with your attending; and if you are on an outpatient rotation, generally vacation days are scheduled ad hoc.

My opinion is that you would be making heroic inferences about program organization based on this "hiccup". It may be that you are an extremely competitive applicant who can afford to dismiss programs for inconveniencing you. Or that you are just easily spooked by events like this. Either way, at this point in the interview season, it may be advisable for you to dial it back a bit.

 

[geripsyched]

For a research track with no separate Match where a specific interview day is set aside largely as a courtesy for residents who seem like they would be research oriented, it is totally reasonable for the program director to issue more invitations than available slots.

At many programs, if you are on an inpatient rotation like consults or ward psych, generally vacation days will be negotiated with the chief resident or with your attending; and if you are on an outpatient rotation, generally vacation days are scheduled ad hoc.

My opinion is that you would be making heroic inferences about program organization based on this "hiccup". It may be that you are an extremely competitive applicant who can afford to dismiss programs for inconveniencing you. Or that you are just easily spooked by events like this. Either way, at this point in the interview season, it may be advisable for you to dial it back a bit.

Fair enough, I stand advised. In hindsight, I agree with you that my extrapolating that this exchange is at all relevant to other logistical components of the residency program is a stretch at best.

Part of the reason I even took the effort to post on this is that I haven't heard of this happening before and was not sure what to make of it. In all honesty, is it a big deal? Of course not! Brown's psychiatry residency program provides a fantastic training environment and is by most accounts of extremely high quality. It just seemed odd to me and when I shared this story with others, they found it equally odd. My experiences with other training programs (including those with "unmatched research tracks") have been very pleasant. In comparison, this is on outlier. I still think that a program that sends invites out to something that fills in a couple hours is putting undue pressure on applicants. What are we supposed to do? Interrupt our clinical duties so we can respond to all the programs right away? Just doesn't seem to be the right way of doing things. And I am not spooked. I just have limited finances/time and have to best manage those for residency interviews. But I still agree with you that my original interpretation left much to be desired.

 

[twright]

Fair enough, I stand advised. In hindsight, I agree with you that my extrapolating that this exchange is at all relevant to other logistical components of the residency program is a stretch at best.

Part of the reason I even took the effort to post on this is that I haven't heard of this happening before and was not sure what to make of it. In all honesty, is it a big deal? Of course not! Brown's psychiatry residency program provides a fantastic training environment and is by most accounts of extremely high quality. It just seemed odd to me and when I shared this story with others, they found it equally odd. My experiences with other training programs (including those with "unmatched research tracks") have been very pleasant. In comparison, this is on outlier. I still think that a program that sends invites out to something that fills in a couple hours is putting undue pressure on applicants. What are we supposed to do? Interrupt our clinical duties so we can respond to all the programs right away? Just doesn't seem to be the right way of doing things. And I am not spooked. I just have limited finances/time and have to best manage those for residency interviews. But I still agree with you that my original interpretation left much to be desired.

No question your experience was a little weird. Nice of you to post on SDN so that others who may have experienced the same don't think that they were the only one.

If you're still interested in kicking the tires one thing you might do is tell the program coordinator that you're still interested in learning more about the research track and, do you think you could notify me if someone drops out and a spot opens up?. Long shot, but worth a try.

 

[m1345]

I've had a couple of similar experiences-- I've responded to the invitation email literally within minutes (at my computer all day) requesting one of three dates in Dec (a number of dates in Nov, Dec, and Jan were offered) and they respond back with "sorry, only Jan dates are now available." I agree that its disconcerting, but am also trying not to read too much into it.

 

[geripsyched]

No question your experience was a little weird. Nice of you to post on SDN so that others who may have experienced the same don't think that they were the only one.

If you're still interested in kicking the tires one thing you might do is tell the program coordinator that you're still interested in learning more about the research track and, do you think you could notify me if someone drops out and a spot opens up?. Long shot, but worth a try.

Appreciate your suggestion! 5-6 hours after the original email the coordinator placed me on the wait list. Based on our exchange, it seemed like there were already multiple candidates on the wait list at that time. Really not a big deal if I miss out on a research day. Something more important to me is that the coordinator offered to connect us with researchers of interest. I will send her ~4 names. If she arranges a meeting with 1 of those researchers that would be "par for the course". If she arranges an interview with 2 or more, that would be wonderful. If, however, I send her these names and do not interview with any of them, that counts as a second “hiccup”. I know my use of the DNI/DNR probably came across overly flippant, arrogant, and in poor taste. I apologize for that. What I did a poor job trying to convey was that when your interview invites already overwhelm your resources of time and finances, these exchanges/inconveniences matter. Especially when program directors at other programs (not the coordinators!) have directly reached out to try to connect you with faculty members who have similar interests. Overall I think applicants to psychiatry residency programs are blessed in that there are so many strong training programs (especially if you’re not averse to living in the Midwest and if you’re looking for “fit” over NIH ranking).

 

[happyoolongtea]

Overall I think applicants to psychiatry residency programs are blessed in that there are so many strong training programs (especially if you're not averse to living in the Midwest and if you're looking for "fit" over NIH ranking).

👍

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Appreciate your suggestion! 5-6 hours after the original email the coordinator placed me on the wait list. Based on our exchange, it seemed like there were already multiple candidates on the wait list at that time. Really not a big deal if I miss out on a research day. Something more important to me is that the coordinator offered to connect us with researchers of interest. I will send her ~4 names. If she arranges a meeting with 1 of those researchers that would be "par for the course". If she arranges an interview with 2 or more, that would be wonderful. If, however, I send her these names and do not interview with any of them, that counts as a second “hiccup”. I know my use of the DNI/DNR probably came across overly flippant, arrogant, and in poor taste. I apologize for that. What I did a poor job trying to convey was that when your interview invites already overwhelm your resources of time and finances, these exchanges/inconveniences matter. Especially when program directors at other programs (not the coordinators!) have directly reached out to try to connect you with faculty members who have similar interests. Overall I think applicants to psychiatry residency programs are blessed in that there are so many strong training programs (especially if you’re not averse to living in the Midwest and if you’re looking for “fit” over NIH ranking).

I agree both that I wouldn't read too much into this particular exchange but that it's good to be mindful of your contact with the department during application season. As an applicant, I thought Brown was an amazing program, so I'd definitely still go interview there.

 

[dl2dp2]

I know someone else who was in exactly the same shoes as you (i.e. the exact same 2 hr-5 min thing happened), and I consider this person to be likely one of the top applicants this cycle. What I inferred is that they simply prioritized all applicants in a sequential fashion without evaluating the research track applicants in a separate pool. I'm assuming you are probably an MD/PhD/someone with a heavy research background and one of the top applicants this cycle. Unless you have a personal/family connection to RI or know specific people at Brown you want to work with, I think it's not unfair to place them on the DNI/DNR list for you depending on your individual characteristics. There are a number of programs that are substantially stronger in terms of research support, as well as clinical training, and likely you would be able to get notified about ranking to match to some of them prior to the interview date at Brown.

Even though it is a small hiccup, the fact that they have not prioritized recruiting top research applicants is troubling in a field where competitive applicants are very hard to recruit in the first place already. This is especially in light of other more resource rich programs going out of their ways to make it easier for the research track applicants. I hope this thread can reach their administration and compel them to make the appropriate adjustments.

 

[geripsyched]

I know someone else who was in exactly the same shoes as you (i.e. the exact same 2 hr-5 min thing happened), and I consider this person to be likely one of the top applicants this cycle. What I inferred is that they simply prioritized all applicants in a sequential fashion without evaluating the research track applicants in a separate pool. I'm assuming you are probably an MD/PhD/someone with a heavy research background and one of the top applicants this cycle. Unless you have a personal/family connection to RI or know specific people at Brown you want to work with, I think it's not unfair to place them on the DNI/DNR list for you depending on your individual characteristics. There are a number of programs that are substantially stronger in terms of research support, as well as clinical training, and likely you would be able to get notified about ranking to match to some of them prior to the interview date at Brown.

Even though it is a small hiccup, the fact that they have not prioritized recruiting top research applicants is troubling in a field where competitive applicants are very hard to recruit in the first place already. This is especially in light of other more resource rich programs going out of their ways to make it easier for the research track applicants. I hope this thread can reach their administration and compel them to make the appropriate adjustments.

Thank you for your post Sluox. Your assessments are spot on about my background - my home program actually has been fairly aggressive in a non-overbearing way with recruiting me. Also, your thoughts about Brown’s approach resonate closely with my concerns and with the experiences I have had elsewhere.

 

[LEdaddy]

I want to reiterate what others have said about not reading too many things into the contacts during interview season vs your impression of the program as a resident. There were many clumsy interactions on the part of my program in terms of interview scheduling, etc. which have had very little to do with my experience now as a resident. The scary thing about interviewing for residency is that no matter how much you try to "kick the tires" you'll never get a realistic sense of what it's like to be a resident there. The good news is since there are so many great programs out there, it doesn't matter.

You can make your judgment based on concrete things like the call schedule or location instead. No matter what anyone tells you, one day isn't going to provide you with a nuanced view of the true experience and culture of a program.

 

[notdeadyet]

Pre-judging a program based on the interview scheduling process is about as effective as judging your car shop based on how nice the person who takes your keys is. The whole interview game is much more the domain of the program coordinator (an admin asst role) than the program director or anyone clinical.