Recession = good?

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doctalaughs

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Anyone actually hoping for a real recession?

Some would argue we are in one now- but extremely low unemployment, robust consumer spending and strong wage growth make that a paper recession only.

On the upside, a real recession would do more to curb this ridiculous inflation than anything the fed can do. The downside is that the stock market would take further hit, although hard to see how much.

I think a real recession would do a lot to reset the us economy and might be good long term. I’m also sick of overcrowded restaurants, vacation spots and understaffing everywhere while American spend money they likely don’t have.
 
Anyone actually hoping for a real recession?

Some would argue we are in one now- but extremely low unemployment, robust consumer spending and strong wage growth make that a paper recession only.

On the upside, a real recession would do more to curb this ridiculous inflation than anything the fed can do. The downside is that the stock market would take further hit, although hard to see how much.

I think a real recession would do a lot to reset the us economy and might be good long term. I’m also sick of overcrowded restaurants, vacation spots and understaffing everywhere while American spend money they likely don’t have.

Recessions are great. As long as I keep my job and income. It is OK if my neighbors are unemployed or underemployed. Makes my dollars go further. Sarcasm aside, excesses are human nature and do need to be wrung out of the system from time to time.
 
Recessions are great. As long as I keep my job and income. It is OK if my neighbors are unemployed or underemployed. Makes my dollars go further. Sarcasm aside, excesses are human nature and do need to be wrung out of the system from time to time.
This is exactly my feeling on it. I don’t care about them. Especially when you find out their jobs are BS. Wealth is all relative. Mine can go up or yours can go down.
 
Please let us know when it bottoms. Also let Warren Buffett and Howard Marks know. They usually don't know either.
Well, Dow is down like 15% for the year. Forecasts for the next 2 quarters aren't all that positive. So you wait a few months, or longer. Miss the bottom by a couple % points? Not a biggie, you still made money.
 
What I don’t get is with the economy in its current condition, why are we seeing rapid expansion of OR services around the nation?

Unemployment is low, so people have health insurance. Once people start losing their jobs, demand for OR services will go down, and those crazy locums rates will disappear.
 
I always thought hoping for a recession was weird. Yes, there is an overabundance of consumption right now, but recessions are painful. People lose jobs, small businesses close, and the economy becomes a more consolidated and less competitive place after a recession. That restaurant you think is too crowded right now will either close during a recession or get bought by that mega-restaurant group and cheapen the menu to increase margins.

Anesthesiologists are also affected during a recession. Healthcare demand goes down and those high salaries and rates we are currently seeing will disappear. You might not lose your job, but you won’t be paid as well.

Hoping for a recession so you can “buy stocks at a discount” was always a strange thing for people to say.
 
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I always though hoping for a recession was weird. Yes, there is an overabundance of consumption right now, but recessions are painful. People lose jobs, small businesses close, and the economy becomes a more consolidated and less competitive place after a recession. That restaurant you think is too crowded right now will either close during a recession or get bought by that mega-restaurant group and cheapen the menu to increase margins.

Anesthesiologists are also affected during a recession. Healthcare demand goes down and those high salaries and rates we are currently seeing will disappear. You might not lose your job, but you won’t be paid as well.

Hoping for a recession so you can “buy stocks at a discount” was always a strange thing for people to say.

Eh, I don’t remember a big drop off in health care demand in the 2008-11 recession. Maybe a bit, but there is a large # of people on Medicare/Medicaid that cushions the blow. Also when people start to cry about forgoing their meds/procedures, the government tends to throw money at it (ie the ACA). I’m not an anesthesiologist so maybe it’s different- but I had no trouble filling my schedules in those years.

I do remember a lot of amazing empty beach vacations at great prices during those years. Right now the beaches of Hawaii are insanely crowded and rooms going for 800+ a night (just got back). Looking around, I’m 100% sure many people are recklessly spending what they don’t have (and likely will be loosing jobs soon with no savings or emergency funds). Americans have never been fiscally responsible, even on a personal basis, so I’m not sure if I should really feel bad for them given it’s predictable what is coming…..
 
Eh, I don’t remember a big drop off in health care demand in the 2008-11 recession. Maybe a bit, but there is a large # of people on Medicare/Medicaid that cushions the blow. Also when people start to cry about forgoing their meds/procedures, the government tends to throw money at it (ie the ACA). I’m not an anesthesiologist so maybe it’s different- but I had no trouble filling my schedules in those years.

I do remember a lot of amazing empty beach vacations at great prices during those years. Right now the beaches of Hawaii are insanely crowded and rooms going for 800+ a night (just got back). Looking around, I’m 100% sure many people are recklessly spending what they don’t have (and likely will be loosing jobs soon with no savings or emergency funds). Americans have never been fiscally responsible, even on a personal basis, so I’m not sure if I should really feel bad for them given it’s predictable what is coming…..

You want a recession so you can go to the beach? Really? If you really want to go to the beach, you should be hoping for another pandemic. That was some awesome time to travel. Do you really think people are recklessly spending what they don’t have or spending what they saved up while sitting at home during the pandemic? Maybe they are celebrating that raise they got recently?

2008-2015 were probably some of the worst years for the anesthesia job market. Practices were selling out as fast as they could and the jobs prospects were pretty bad.
 
You want a recession so you can go to the beach? Really? If you really want to go to the beach, you should be hoping for another pandemic. That was some awesome time to travel. Do you really think people are recklessly spending what they don’t have or spending what they saved up while sitting at home during the pandemic? Maybe they are celebrating that raise they got recently?

2008-2015 were probably some of the worst years for the anesthesia job market. Practices were selling out as fast as they could and the jobs prospects were pretty bad.

I want a recession because I think the current spending spree of “robust consumer demand” is a mirage — fueled by reckless government money-printing and irresponsible people. The longer we don’t get a recession, the worse the crash will be.

The empty beaches will be a nice side perk though 🙂. If Americans want to put that vacation on credit cards and loan forgiveness windfalls instead of having 1-2 years of emergency funds for the coming unemployment, who am I to say they can’t?
 
Well, Dow is down like 15% for the year. Forecasts for the next 2 quarters aren't all that positive. So you wait a few months, or longer. Miss the bottom by a couple % points? Not a biggie, you still made money.
Do yourself a favor and google "missing the best days of the stock market".

Don't try predicting the market. It's a fool's errand, says this fool who kept waiting for the bottom in March 2020. Btw, this time I have set up automatic investing in FXAIX, 4 times a month.

Now if one wants to buy shares in individual great businesses at good prices, like BRK nowadays, that's a different story. Even then, one should remember that 75% of professional fund managers don't beat the market.

If one thinks the market will keep going down in the near future, one should at least keep dollar cost averaging into a major index, with extra investments whenever the market drops significantly. Historically, the stock market goes up much more than it goes down, and it can turn on a dime.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I want a recession because I think the current spending spree of “robust consumer demand” is a mirage — fueled by reckless government money-printing and irresponsible people. The longer we don’t get a recession, the worse the crash will be.

The empty beaches will be a nice side perk though 🙂. If Americans want to put that vacation on credit cards and loan forgiveness windfalls instead of having 1-2 years of emergency funds for the coming unemployment, who am I to say they can’t?

What happened during the last the last recessions? The government “printed a lot of money.” Why will that be different this time?

You seem convinced that this is reckless spending of money people don’t have instead of simple supply and demand economics. You wanting a recession so you can have a luxury beach resort all to yourself on the cheap is weird, no matter what kind of commentary you are trying to spin here.
 
What happened during the last the last recessions? The government “printed a lot of money.” Why will that be different this time?

You seem convinced that this is reckless spending of money people don’t have instead of simple supply and demand economics. You wanting a recession so you can have a luxury beach resort all to yourself on the cheap is weird, no matter what kind of commentary you are trying to spin here.

You are getting caught up in an irrelevant side point of my post (that it would be nice to have a less crowded vacation; irrelevant because for me, I can take that vacation either way).

The main point is that we aren’t beating this type of inflation (which is a huge threat to everyone, most of all to those with less wealth) without a recession. The sooner the better.

And if you think the amount of money printed this time around is anywhere in the same galaxy as in the past, you are sorely mistaken (like 5x more than the “Great Recession” of 2008 which in turn was unheard of in magnitude before that). Printing/ handing out money in ridiculous amounts only discourages work and responsibility- no way around this basic fact.
 
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Do yourself a favor and google "missing the best days of the stock market".

Don't try predicting the market. It's a fool's errand, says this fool who kept waiting for the bottom in March 2020. Btw, this time I have set up automatic investing in FXAIX, 4 times a month.

Now if one wants to buy shares in individual great businesses at good prices, like BRK nowadays, that's a different story. Even then, one should remember that 75% of professional fund managers don't beat the market.

If one thinks the market will keep going down in the near future, one should at least keep dollar cost averaging into a major index, with extra investments whenever the market drops significantly. Historically, the stock market goes up much more than it goes down, and it can turn on a dime.

Just my 2 cents.
Absolutely. Am thinking of dollar costing in the 3rd or 4 th quarter next yr, unless something changes. I don't see a rapid upswing in the economy before that with the Fed raising interest rates and the labor market still tight.
 
You are getting caught up in an irrelevant side point of my post (that it would be nice to have a less crowded vacation; irrelevant because for me, I can take that vacation either way).

The main point is that we aren’t beating this type of inflation (which is a huge threat to everyone, most of all to those with less wealth) without a recession. The sooner the better.

And if you think the amount of money printed this time around is anywhere in the same galaxy as in the past, you are sorely mistaken (like 5x more than the “Great Recession” of 2008 which in turn was unheard of in magnitude before that). Printing/ handing out money in ridiculous amounts only discourages work and responsibility- no way around this basic fact.

The doctors who were getting PPP money and hospital money hot off the presses of the government printer didn’t seem to mind. I wonder how many doctors bought Porsches, Rolexes, and or Hawaii resort stays with government cheese? You seem to be wanting to somehow tie your less than ideal luxury resort vacation experience with the government and inflation. It’s weird. Write a bad review on Trip Advisor and move on.
 
The doctors who were getting PPP money and hospital money hot off the presses of the government printer didn’t seem to mind. I wonder how many doctors bought Porsches, Rolexes, and or Hawaii resort stays with government cheese? You seem to be wanting to somehow tie your less than ideal luxury resort vacation experience with the government and inflation. It’s weird. Write a bad review on Trip Advisor and move on.

If they are handing out money - you’d be an idiot not to take it while others are.

Doesn’t mean you agree with the premise it should be handed out in the first place.
 
This is what happens when you try to time the bottom instead of just buying all the way down

Screenshot_20221023_200744.jpg
 
Any young physician not near retirement should be hoping for real recession unless they have a trust that is tied to the stock market. House prices will go down and 300-500k per year will be able to afford a much nicer house than it can now
 
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If you know basic ms and how liquidity works… no it doesn’t show what you think it shows. These are basics that can be learned in minutes.

You're like a talking panel ad on SeekingAlpha. Two lines of gibberish that causes the vast majority of people listening to it to lose money.

Fact remains, no matter what quant/micro/macro you want to use literally nobody knows where the bottom is, and it's a fact that people lose money pretending they do.
 
I’m not highlighting some crazy TA. I’m showing you basic market structure. Literally Dow theory. I also don’t care about if people lose money. I have scalped ES futures for almost 10 years now and I don’t care what some SeekingAlpha says…

You don’t even understand the most basic terminology to know I’m not telling people you can time the bottom. (Also who cares about the bottom you can make money no matter the direction.) You can start doing your lame DCA once the market has changed its structure; aka not buying the bottom.

You’re of the mindset that you aren’t losing money if you don’t realize the loss… when in reality whichever equity you’re buying… it can go to zero.

The everything bubble is coming and you think DCA before it pops off is the correct answer…
6db_3.jpg
 
Anyone DCAing into a downtrend… Please stop… Go spend sometime learning the most basic principle of the market; market structure.
You are right that nobody should DCA into a downtrend of a particular stock (aka trying to catch a falling knife), unless one knows the business behind the stock very well and one is convinced that the business has a great future (e.g. Amazon in 2008). One should know the concept of value trap before buying into any stock that seems cheap.

DCA-ing into a broad market index is a completely different story. There are very small chances that the S&P 500 won't bounce back in the next 5-10 years or sooner.

I learned my lesson in 2020: I kept thinking that the S&P500 will go lower, it will go lower, then it just bounced upwards and it was all over. I don't know what the Feds will do, what the politicians will do, what wars will come or end, and how the market will react (it's been idiosyncratic before - it's hard to predict in real-time, it just looks easy in hindsight).

I'm investing for 20+ years, so I honestly don't care if the market drops another 30-50% till it bottoms, as long as I am DCA-ing into that. If I get to buy the index at bottom + 20% on average, I'd be very satisfied.

And I'm only DCA-ing about 25% of my cash for now. There's going to be another 25% that will be spent if the market drops another 25-30%. Another 25% that may be spent on great businesses if at bargain prices (e.g. COST or AMZN, or SNOW). And so on. I spread my bets exactly because I am an amateur who knows nothing (while still knowing much more than the average physician).

As Nick Maggiulli says: (if you still have 20-30 years till you need that money) Just Keep Buying. Btw, I strongly recommend that book.

Ray Dalio may have become a billionaire from knowing how to time the market, but even he cannot predict the bottom. And I'm no Ray Dalio (plus all the geniuses in his hedge fund).

You seem to be suggesting that a strong dollar means that we are far from the market bottom. To me, it means that everybody else is even more f-cked up than we are, which is usual (when America sneezes the world gets a pneumonia). Yes, it may affect our exports and profits, but, on the other hand, 30% of the S&P 500 profits come from abroad anyway.

Anyway, there's nobody here who knows much, because otherwise they would have fatFIRE'd and be enjoying the good life, instead of posting on this forum. Even then, it's not such a big deal to make money during a bull market, like the one that has just ended. One may have just gotten very lucky, like the one who wins the lottery. It doesn't mean that playing the lottery is a good idea.

TBH, I am most concerned not about missing the bottom, but about the fact that high inflation will continue, for the simple reason that this country has such a huge debt that it will need inflation to service it (on top of all the money already going to populist causes). In which case, cash will be trash again.
 
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Anesthesia salaries tanked in many parts the country from 2010-2015. Part of that was consolidation of the anesthesia market with mega gobbling of profitable groups via buyouts.

I remember seeing ads in 2012/2013 in Georgia and Florida for salaries in the low 200s full time with full weekend calls from mednax and Sheridan and 6 weeks off. They kept those salaries artificially low after the buyouts

Now the AMCs have completely lost control the past 3 plus years and it only accelerated during Covid.

Hospitals are in a bind. ORs are so profitable. So they gotta keep kicking back subsidy to AMCs. Or pay their own locums or in house w2. It’s a lose lose situation for hospitals trying to regulate /control anesthesia salaries

Only good thing for us. Is the crna’s are driving up their own salaries. Crna’s aren’t willing to work for less. Most now think 220-250k is normal for 40 hour w2 job 7-3pm. Most crna’s think $200 plus an hour is standard for locums.
 
You're like a talking panel ad on SeekingAlpha. Two lines of gibberish that causes the vast majority of people listening to it to lose money.

Fact remains, no matter what quant/micro/macro you want to use literally nobody knows where the bottom is, and it's a fact that people lose money pretending they do.

Biden Flags More SPR Sales, Will Restock Oil at $67-$72 a Barrel.​



This is Randolph Duke. Advise our clients interested in oil to buy at $70. President Biden has set the price.
 
The irony my dude is that I’m suggesting something much simpler than anything you expanded on… Literally just the anatomy of a trend; the simplest of things. The equivalent of a doc telling a patient you should learn to take your BP, in which the patient responds back with, “you can’t time my death with your fancy numbers.”



I personally don’t invest, nor do I believe in fundamentals. Our country has created a market with passive 401k exit liquidity. Continual investment by the general public no matter the company’s fundamental soundness. The market has far too much lag to be an efficient instrument as it stands.(ie still mid crash and we still have 218 companies with a market cap >1B and an EBITDA of (-) 100M.)



I believe in compounding and I have (through years of practice and dedication) learned how to compound my gains via scalping the indexes. I’m not suggesting anyone do this or attempt to learn how to. However, this was, is, and how I always will provide for my family. This is all irrelevant to the topic of a recession. But when people equate me telling them to take their “blood pressure” to “I’m trying to give you some cure to your disease”…. It’s misleading and ignorant.



I didn’t mention the DXY, but maybe your referencing my “everything bubble” comment? Yes USD is stronk but a consolidation is likely no doubt. Unless EUR and GBP expands past their ATLs? VIX is also contracting and some large positions are being taken. But honestly I don’t even care, it doesn’t personally effect my edge. However, it does hurt my family members and neighbors and this is what I care about most. This isn’t 2008… Equities, commodities, debt, and alternative assets are in a bubble all at once… The FED has already used the typical mechanisms to control this BS. People are looking out their window looking for signs of recession (did Biden’s re-definition of recession really trick people? It’s already started.) When in reality Europe will be where the canary dies, not in the states….



Whatever though people can keep DCA into a downtrend with no one knowing what the future holds… except their ironclad belief that the economy always has to recover no matter the situation.

Here comes the million dollar question: what are you doing on a medical forum, then?

I am not being sarcastic when I say that, if I were so good that I could provide for my family for years from trading on the stock market, I would not bother with medicine. I would just keep compounding my capital, till I reach my number. So have you been lucky or good?

As a true amateur, I appreciate your input. As you pointed out, we have no idea if and when the economy/stock market will recover. This can be a 1930's type of situation, followed by another world war. So it could take decades, if it ever recovers (like Japan). You're right. Past performance is not a predictor of future performance. This time may be different (although usually it's not). That's why one has to diversify one's bets.

And you have a point about Europe. That's one ****ed up continent (when compared to the end of the Cold War), and all it took was 10-15 years of stupid leaders and policies, like here. I can totally see it come apart.
 
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Let’s put it this way… I’m much older than my classmates and my attending’s are either my age or younger. I have worked very hard to develop and fine tune my own style and most importantly I exercise excellent risk management. However, I find this unfulfilling. My choice to go into medicine is strictly for my own fulfillment.

To be honest with you (and I know you know this) personal fund ≠ managed fund. Even the basic step of establishing a position is made difficult through a managed fund. Length of time you hold the position (taxes?), establishing a large enough position, positive drift (are you trying to continually gain in a bear so you have to take large short positions?) and liquidity; that doesn’t even scratch the service. It’s completely normal (I know many) fund manager that trade/invest outside of their own fund. It’s just simpler and is more lucrative for the individual.
So are they front-running the fund they manage?
 
Man, I can't believe people actually root for layoffs and their neighbors losing their jobs. None of you have ever been laid off or had to deal with uncertainty regarding where your next paycheck is coming from to have that mentality.

People die and families fall apart when the economy is in recession. Pretty stupid to be praying for one. You never know which recession will be your last.

"I’m also sick of overcrowded restaurants, vacation spots and understaffing everywhere while American spend money they likely don’t have."

"Looking forward to the BS and admin jobs getting cut down."

"I do remember a lot of amazing empty beach vacations at great prices during those years. Right now the beaches of Hawaii are insanely crowded and rooms going for 800+ a night (just got back). Looking around, I’m 100% sure many people are recklessly spending what they don’t have (and likely will be loosing jobs soon with no savings or emergency funds). Americans have never been fiscally responsible, even on a personal basis, so I’m not sure if I should really feel bad for them given it’s predictable what is coming….."

Just a general disregard for other humans. And we wonder why the general public doesn't like doctors.
 
Man, I can't believe people actually root for layoffs and their neighbors losing their jobs. None of you have ever been laid off or had to deal with uncertainty regarding where your next paycheck is coming from to have that mentality.

People die and families fall apart when the economy is in recession. Pretty stupid to be praying for one. You never know which recession will be your last.



Just a general disregard for other humans. And we wonder why the general public doesn't like doctors.

Little dramatic? Losing a job sucks but equating it to death is stupid. And there are a LOT of useless jobs in this country that shouldn’t exist (eg 90% of administrators in healthcare).

Recessions are a normal part of all economies.

Rampant inflation which triples within months— or god forbid hyperinflation— is what can destroy countries and societies. I stand by the statement that we are due for, and need a good standard recession.
 
Little dramatic? Losing a job sucks but equating it to death is stupid. And there are a LOT of useless jobs in this country that shouldn’t exist (eg 90% of administrators in healthcare).

Recessions are a normal part of all economies.

Rampant inflation which triples within months— or god forbid hyperinflation— is what can destroy countries and societies. I stand by the statement that we are due for, and need a good standard recession.

There is some conflicting data on mortality during recessions with recessions actually being associated with lower mortality FWIW.

Maybe a slowdown is good sometimes.
 
Little dramatic? Losing a job sucks but equating it to death is stupid. And there are a LOT of useless jobs in this country that shouldn’t exist (eg 90% of administrators in healthcare).

Recessions are a normal part of all economies.

Rampant inflation which triples within months— or god forbid hyperinflation— is what can destroy countries and societies. I stand by the statement that we are due for, and need a good standard recession.
Exactly

Case in point

 
Exactly

Case in point



You know…I post on a lot on stuff that makes my blood boil. But honestly this 1.5min Twitter post is probably gonna give me a stroke.

I can’t think of anyone more dereerving of living under a bridge and dumpster diving for food than this vapid coastal 20 something.

People have ruined their lives fighting the good fight so that these idiots can “manage” a product.
 
Yep I'm sure when the recession hits it'll just be 20 million hospital administrators and gen Y meta employees who lose their jobs.

No - but maybe some people will realize that you actually have to work to earn a living.

Not everyone can be a tiktok star or dei consultant. That’s not how (healthy) economies work.

We are due for a reset.
 
No - but maybe some people will realize that you actually have to work to earn a living.

Not everyone can be a tiktok star or dei consultant. That’s not how (healthy) economies work.

We are due for a reset.
That TikTok star and clipboard nurse is about as recession-proof as you can get. The single mom working two waitressing jobs and the guy working days in manufacturing and nights in a warehouse will lose their jobs.
 
Anyone actually hoping for a real recession?

Some would argue we are in one now- but extremely low unemployment, robust consumer spending and strong wage growth make that a paper recession only.

On the upside, a real recession would do more to curb this ridiculous inflation than anything the fed can do. The downside is that the stock market would take further hit, although hard to see how much.

I think a real recession would do a lot to reset the us economy and might be good long term. I’m also sick of overcrowded restaurants, vacation spots and understaffing everywhere while American spend money they likely don’t have.
Difficulty: If a recession is bad enough it can undermine faith in a country's ability to service its debt and devalue the currency further.
 
No - but maybe some people will realize that you actually have to work to earn a living.

Not everyone can be a tiktok star or dei consultant. That’s not how (healthy) economies work.

I know we're not going to agree here, but the idea that some significant number of US working age adults - in an environment where the unemployment rate is *3.5%* - don't understand work is pretty dumb.

And the focus on the select jobs you find to be extraneous is a total strawman not representative of the labor force as a whole.

We are due for a reset.

I dunno, maybe there's some improvements to be sought rather than just shrugging off the fact that our economic system routinely collapses when faced with a stiff breeze every decade?
 
I know we're not going to agree here, but the idea that some significant number of US working age adults - in an environment where the unemployment rate is *3.5%* - don't understand work is pretty dumb.

And the focus on the select jobs you find to be extraneous is a total strawman not representative of the labor force as a whole.



I dunno, maybe there's some improvements to be sought rather than just shrugging off the fact that our economic system routinely collapses when faced with a stiff breeze every decade?
I think the collapses are self inflicted.
 
I dunno, maybe there's some improvements to be sought rather than just shrugging off the fact that our economic system routinely collapses when faced with a stiff breeze every decade?
This is just how free market economies work, largely due to the expansion and contraction of credit.

Much better than having a centrally planned economy that “only goes up”
 
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