Recommend some programs...

[vanczosyn]

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Background: MS3 at a top 50 US Allo school, strongly interested in Gen Surg (would like to do fellowship afterwards in trauma/acute care surg, but that might change after I start actually experiencing the subspecialties as a resident). Struggled first two years (I'm a poor exam taker), leaving me in bottom third of class, step 1 score below 200 but passed on first attempt. In third year, no honors and doing mediocre on shelves but consistently getting glowing evals from residents, faculty, etc. and shining relative to classmates in all rotations.

I would like to get some suggestions as far as programs to investigate and/or do a sub-I at to make me as competitive as possible. My only restrictions would be that I want to be in a warm climate and a major metropolitan area. I was considering FL, TX, CA. Thats a wide net, but as far as places I'd be competitive at...I'm just not sure where to start. Any help would be much appreciated, thanks!

 

[SocialistMD]

I recommend you look here.

 

[vanczosyn]

Seen it, thanks. Debated posting or not, but I figured if others have gotten constructive replies for doing relatively the same thing, it's worth a shot.

 

[SocialistMD]

I tend not to be "constructive" when the tower I'd be building is a bunch of lazy. It wasn't long ago that I was a 3rd year medical student with an interest in surgery. Maybe it is old-fashioned now to actually use Google to find the answers to your own questions, but back then that is what I did. I found this little website. Consider it a gift.

It's funny because, while the information may be dated, it tells you a lot about what programs are out there and allows you to further research those programs that interest you more in depth by going to their websites. Now (and this may be tricky), it doesn't always have a direct link to their websites, so you have to go back to that old standby (Google) to find them, but that really is <gasp> all it takes.

Sorry to sound so jaded, but it really bothers me when people come here asking about programs where they should apply based on their numbers and it doesn't appear they've actually looked themselves. If this is not the case, I apologize.

 

[vanczosyn]

First of all, yes I am aware of the FACS residency search page and have looked up almost all of the programs in the states I'm interested in. The only really helpful information I found, however, was which ones require you to do a year or two of research during residency, so I could eliminate them from my list. However, as most places tend to do, they all claim to be great programs and mention nothing about competitiveness of the program...hence I was hoping to get some more subjective information from here.

Look, I know I basically posted another highly illegal "what are my chances" thread, but I don't know of any other way to determine the competitiveness of these programs. Is there some kind of national rank list like they had for med schools? Short of emailing each program (which I'm considering) and asking whether they have Step 1 cutoffs, what other way is there? PS I'm not totally lazy, I have met with some of the surgery faculty and the residency director at my school, but they were only familiar with programs in certain areas of the country (most of which weren't in the areas I'm looking at).

 

[SLUser11]

Struggled first two years (I'm a poor exam taker), leaving me in bottom third of class, step 1 score below 200 but passed on first attempt. In third year, no honors and doing mediocre on shelves but consistently getting glowing evals from residents, faculty, etc. and shining relative to classmates in all rotations.....My only restrictions would be that I want to be in a warm climate and a major metropolitan area. I was considering FL, TX, CA.

You are not very competitive. You will have an uphill battle ahead of you to match. "Glowing evals" and your school's prestige won't save you from that, unfortunately.

As far as where to do Sub-Is, you've answered your own question: Do them somewhere in a warm-climate-metropolitan area. The one thing in your favor there is that these big cities will have several less-desirable programs where you have a better chance of matching.

Specific programs to investigate: Places with IMGs, DOs, and AOA <25%, based on the ACS website, as they will be your target audience.

 

[vanczosyn]

Thanks for the reply. How can I tell which programs are "less-desirable" and which are out of my league?

 

[BlondeDocteur]

1) Go to FREIDA:
http://www0.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/srch/

2) Search warm-climate states for general surgery programs:
(I found 52 programs searching the southeast and south-central US)

3) Rule out the big names (i.e. Emory, Duke, UAB, Baylor, UTSW, etc)

4) Visit websites of identified programs. Check out where the residents come from as far as medical schools, etc (a poor proxy for competitiveness but it might be the best you get). Get a gestalt of each program.

5) After you have a list of 30 or so places, talk it over with the surgery advisor at your school

6) Set up audition sub-is based on his input at programs you think you have a shot at, and whom you can impress with your work ethic, smarts of the non-book sort, interpersonal competence, etc.

5) Apply widely and take your chances.

 

[vanczosyn]

Excellent advice, thanks!

 

[SocialistMD]

Thanks for the reply. How can I tell which programs are "less-desirable" and which are out of my league?

Why do I bother?

If you have state restrictions, look at the programs in those states that are at community hospitals. They tend to be a little more forgiving of grade mishaps.

This isn't rocket science. You will want to apply to as broad a scope of programs as possible, so actually applying to every program in Florida, Texas and California won't cost you much more than it would to apply to only the community programs. Chances are, you could rule out any University of California program (honestly, your chances in California if you are not from California are slim to none), Baylor, UT-Southwestern, University of Florida and Miami. You'll probably want to apply to at least 30 or so programs to ensure a match, so you are going to need to add some programs and you are going to need to accept possibly living in a smaller town outside of Florida or Texas if you want to be sure to match. BlondeDocteur gave you some good advice. How we were able to figure this out without the help of an internet forum, I have no idea...🙄

My consulting fee is $50/hr, so that is about how much you owe me for doing your work for you. I accept Paypal and Starbucks gift cards.

 

[smq123]

My consulting fee is $50/hr, so that is about how much you owe me for doing your work for you. I accept Paypal and Starbucks gift cards.

Wow, you're nice. I'd think that, after several years of these types of threads, you'd have worked your way up to $50 PER POST. 😉

OP - Spending an afternoon on Google is well worth it. Searching old threads on SDN, looking up programs on FRIEDA, looking up individual program websites, etc. is all very useful.

(P.S. There are program websites DO state what their Step 1 cutoffs are. You can use those as a rough guide.)

 

[Winged Scapula]

OP:

WAMC threads aren't "illegal" its just that they are almost always unanswerable. None of us here are surgery program directors and cannot say with the 100% guarantee you seem to be looking for whether or not you would be competitive.

But, toward that end, please know that many programs use Step 1 scores as a filter. Therefore, it won't matter how strong your LORs and evals are, if you can't make it to the interview stage.

You've been given some good advice above.

In California, the two least competitive programs tend to be Kern County and UCSF-Fresno of the university affiliated ones. I am sure there are some smaller community programs which are less competitive, but as noted above, California is very competitive overall and you may not meet the mark even for these programs.

In Arizona, leave out Mayo Scottsdale; you aren't competitive. Maricopa and U of A take less competitive applicants than many other university based programs but the state overall doesn't have many surgical residencies.

In Florida there are a lot of smaller programs which are less desirable.

Frankly, you may wish to look at programs in NY/NJ and the deep south (outside of Florida) as many of these tend to be less competitive. Beggars cannot be choosers when it comes to location.

Sometimes you do have to call programs and find out if they have a Step 1 cut-off. For anyone with such worries, going straight to the program is the best option for accurate information. Additionally, surely your faculty have friends or colleagues in all areas of the country whom they could refer you to for more information about programs.

Finally, every program has a website; many of them list their residents and where they went to medical school. If you see a lot of FMGs/IMGs (especially at senior/categorical positions), then its generally a less competitive program. Its just a lot of leg work which you aren't going to find people here who have done it or are willing to do it for you.

 

[vanczosyn]

I appreciate all of the advice (minus the snide remarks), and again I was just posting to try and get some basic direction. Which I certainly have received. SocialistMD - do you take Medicaid? If so, your final reimbursement should be around $0.50 before taxes..enjoy! 🙂

 

[SocialistMD]

So long as I receive it.

If you continue to depend on others for information rather than taking a bit more than the most basic of initiative to find it for yourself, you need to expect to continue to hear the snide remarks as a surgery resident, because I can promise you they will come.

<Soapbox time, yet again>
Nothing is more valuable than time. Waste yours before you waste that of others. We gain nothing by answering your questions and we have no vested interest in you and your academic growth or potential, so really try to exhaust yourself before you ask others for help. The answers you received here should have been atainable by you without the outside help given, which is why I consider questions like this to be lazy and become so irritated when I see them over, and over, and over...</soapbox>

 

[vanczosyn]

Interesting comment you make about wasting time. Remind me again who is forcing you to spend your free time (which, if you are indeed a surgical resident, is no doubt few and far between) replying to my thread? While I'm appreciative of the constructive elements of your replies, I fail to see the necessity of the condescension and pretentiousness in your posts. You act as if I've come on here asking for you to write my personal statement or do my taxes. Get over yourself, and next time feel free to skip threads that strike you as irritating and lazy.

 

[thunder hawk]

hey I can recommend one program University of Texas at San Antonio...its a uni hospital with 7 yr GS residency program....its not very competitive due to two reasons....one that program is undergoing some major changes...it was previously affiliated with military but Washington has made a decision that no civilian program should be affiliated with military...they are merging air force and army programs together and same thing is happening in san antonio... the chairman of surgery left and possibly there will be a new chairman....second reason is that it is 7 yr program and it makes it less attractive for AMGs....program has many IMGs and if you are an AMG and you feel OK with these above mentioned problems I recommend you to apply to this program....they have attractive transplant, vascular and colorectal program, basic science laboratories, chance to earn MCSI degree during residency.... If you are not interested in research than dont worry...previously it was mandatory to do 2 yr of research B/w PGY 2 and PGY 3 ...now it is optional you can do just 5 yr of clinical training .go to their website....and check them out. take care

 

[SocialistMD]

While I'm appreciative of the constructive elements of your replies, I fail to see the necessity of the condescension and pretentiousness in your posts.

First, there is no pretension. There is only the voice of a resident who has experienced numerous posters on this forum (and residents in his own program) guilty of feeling entitled to have someone else do their work for them with no sense of responsibility for themselves or their own careers/self-improvement.

Second, of course you don't appreciate it. No one appreciates condescension. Yet my comments didn't seem to take the first or even second time around. It isn't condescension as much as it is exacerbation on my part. You read the "before posting" thread, yet still posted. Strike one; can't follow directions.

SLUser then told you where to look. Specifically, he told you this:

Specific programs to investigate: Places with IMGs, DOs, and AOA <25%, based on the ACS website, as they will be your target audience.

Your reply:

How can I tell which programs are "less-desirable" and which are out of my league?

First off, he actually answered your question. Second, your reply came 6 minutes after his post, meaning you didn't do anything he suggested, just expected others to do that work for you. Strike two; waste's the time of others.

Then you began, subtlely at first, to tell me that you don't like the way I have tried to help you (be it in answering your question directly or offering you a general perspective on skills that I, as a surgery resident, have found necessary and valuable on both my road to matching in a surgery residency and in being an effective resident in general) and think I should limit my comments to only those that are given in a manner that you want to hear them. Strike three; sense of entitlement.

The way I read this thread, you have demonstrated the three personality traits that irritate me the most and that are found in the most ineffective and inefficient surgery residents.

Look, I really try to be helpful as much as possible here, but I also think that self-reliance is a much more valuable tool in your arsenal as a future surgeon than knowing what programs we think warrant your application. It's obvious I missed my mark, so I'm done.

And, for the record, I wish you the best on your desire to be a surgeon and I'm sure that if you apply to a broad enough range of programs, you will match.

 

[dancinjenn]

1) Go to FREIDA:
http://www0.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/srch/

2) Search warm-climate states for general surgery programs:
(I found 52 programs searching the southeast and south-central US)

3) Rule out the big names (i.e. Emory, Duke, UAB, Baylor, UTSW, etc)

4) Visit websites of identified programs. Check out where the residents come from as far as medical schools, etc (a poor proxy for competitiveness but it might be the best you get). Get a gestalt of each program.

5) After you have a list of 30 or so places, talk it over with the surgery advisor at your school

6) Set up audition sub-is based on his input at programs you think you have a shot at, and whom you can impress with your work ethic, smarts of the non-book sort, interpersonal competence, etc.

5) Apply widely and take your chances.

I'll second this advice. I was not a "top-notch" applicant either. But I applied widely and got a goodly amt of interviews at programs that I would actually go to. My only problem in that I can't give you a better response is that we are in vastly different sections of the country...I need my seasons. But this is pretty much exactly what I did.

I would add that when you apply make sure that you do give yourself some "reach" programs. I put a few on my list and was surprised that I got interviews at a couple. It was based on my LOR's and my PS that I got those interviews. "glowing reviews" mean jack when they are on a sheet of paper for a clerkship review. If you have well-known attendings who will write the same thing in a LOR it is a different story.

 

[Blade28]

Is there some kind of national rank list like they had for med schools?

Unfortunately, no such list exists. The MSAR was very helpful for pre-meds (showing average GPAs/MCAT scores, etc.), as was USNWR...but for residency programs you're best off asking the MS-IVs above you, residents/attendings at your own program, and reading up on each program online.

Edit: it may go without saying that you need to take Step 2 CK and rock it. A Step 1 score in the 190s will get you screened out of the more competitive G Surg programs, and some of the middle-tier ones as well; of those programs whose filters your app passes, most will look upon you more favorably if you have a solid Step 2 CK score. So it behooves you to make the most of the rest of your med school experience before you apply this fall - get Honors in the rest of your rotations, do well on Step 2 CK, obtain solid letters of recommendation, wrap up any research that you may have started earlier in your med school career.

Best of luck.

 

[Bill_Brasky]

i've been using residencyadvisor.info and have had good luck this interviewing season and it gives you a rough idea of your chances of getting an interview at somewhere.