Regarding Publications and Research

[helpabrotherout]

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So how do you guys find labs that will let you publish? I'm going into freshman year of undergrad, and I like research from the little experience I have with it, but I don't want to sign up with a lab and do a bunch of research with them only to later find out they won't let me publish anything (first author or not). Is it socially appropriate to ask a professor if he'll let you publish before doing research with him? Or would I just have to ask other students where they've had luck getting publications.

 

[looncat]

Even if you ask other students where they've published, that doesn't mean you'll also be able to publish in that lab. It's very project dependent and based on how much work you've done and if the data is even publishable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want to publish solely because it'll look good when in actuality tons of student get into med school every year without papers.

Also, no it is definitely not ever appropriate to ask a professor if he'll let you publish before you start your work; it shows you're doing the research to further yourself.

 

[Law2Doc]

So how do you guys find labs that will let you publish? I'm going into freshman year of undergrad, and I like research from the little experience I have with it, but I don't want to sign up with a lab and do a bunch of research with them only to later find out they won't let me publish anything (first author or not). Is it socially appropriate to ask a professor if he'll let you publish before doing research with him? Or would I just have to ask other students where they've had luck getting publications.

Don't "sign up with a lab". Find a person who works in an area you are interested in and see if he needs someone -- work with a PI, not for a lab. And contrary to the prior posters advice, always find out up front whether he thinks there might be an opportunity to be on a publication or presentation. Knowing he's let others publish is helpful, but you need to strike your own understanding, not hope he treats you the same. It's a bit of an awkward dance, but you really need to find this out early on, and let him know that's your goal, or you will get exploited and some grad student will be on the paper instead of you. What you don't want to expect, ever, is to be first author on someone else's research -- for that you pretty much need to come to him with an idea of your own that he likes, or a novel Spin off on an existing project, not just jump on one of his projects and expect him to put you down as the lead. If he's generous and you do a ton of the work, you might be a second author on one of his ongoing things, but you don't generally get "gifted" the First author spot unless it's your idea. Also bear in mind that research takes time. If we are talking basic research, it could be a year or more before you've collected enough data to even start talking about submitting an abstract someplace.

 

[pharmnrp804]

Going into freshman year?? Depending on the school, you probably won't be able to find a PI who will allow you to work with them, especially at a Research I. In my experience, which is limited to my institution and labs, you need to have a substantial intellectual contribution in order to be an author (or in most cases, be the investigator with the funding). This includes experimental design/troubleshooting, expert background knowledge, and/or statistical analysis. Simply gathering data usually doesn't cut it. Our lab techs don't end up as authors because they simply help gather the data, even though this is a HUGE contribution. They are thanked at the end in the acknowledgement section (at least in my papers), but rarely do they make an authorship.

That being said... many PIs won't believe that you have enough background knowledge to contribute substantially in an intellectual way at this stage in your education. You could be the smartest person in the world (I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't doubt that you're at least reasonably intelligent), but because of where you are in your education, you'll have a hard time convincing a PI that you really know something without having any upper-level science background. This may be something unique to my institution, but science is all about status, and I've found that it's not the nicest of fields.

Bottom line, take your time. You have your entire college career to find research. Take your first year or two and find what interests you and learn all you can about it. Explore your options. Good luck!

 

[G_Marker]

At my college, you could potentially start research after your freshman year (during the summer before sophomore year), if you excelled in you courses, were proactive about expressing interest, and impressed certain professors. I wish I had thought about joining a lab earlier, in retrospect. It really depends on your school, though.

You should find a lab that is doing a project or working in an area that interests you. You should also find a lab where you won't just be doing busywork for someone else's thesis (unless they are an undergrad who is going to graduate and leave you with the project). These criteria might not be possible, depending on what school you go to; however, the latter is pretty critical if you want to be a first author before you graduate.

 

[soccerusa]

Going into freshman year?? Depending on the school, you probably won't be able to find a PI who will allow you to work with them, especially at a Research I. In my experience, which is limited to my institution and labs, you need to have a substantial intellectual contribution in order to be an author (or in most cases, be the investigator with the funding). This includes experimental design/troubleshooting, expert background knowledge, and/or statistical analysis. Simply gathering data usually doesn't cut it. Our lab techs don't end up as authors because they simply help gather the data, even though this is a HUGE contribution. They are thanked at the end in the acknowledgement section (at least in my papers), but rarely do they make an authorship.

That being said... many PIs won't believe that you have enough background knowledge to contribute substantially in an intellectual way at this stage in your education. You could be the smartest person in the world (I wouldn't know, but I wouldn't doubt that you're at least reasonably intelligent), but because of where you are in your education, you'll have a hard time convincing a PI that you really know something without having any upper-level science background. This may be something unique to my institution, but science is all about status, and I've found that it's not the nicest of fields.

Bottom line, take your time. You have your entire college career to find research. Take your first year or two and find what interests you and learn all you can about it. Explore your options. Good luck!

Respectfully, I disagree with this. I go to a Research I school and had no problem finding a lab my freshman year with the expectation of publishing. I worked in the lab all freshman year and spent the summer writing up the paper. You certainly need a friendly and generous PI that wants you to succeed for this to work but it can absolutely be done. I also agree with Law2Doc in saying that this is absolutely something you can ask a potential PI. Just phrase it something like, "I am really interested in having research be part of my career in the future and think your lab would be a great place to learn. I was wondering if you have had undergrads in your lab publish or present before?" Anyways best of luck. My research experience was the highlight of my time in college.

 

[kyamh]

First, you 100% need to make sure that the lab is not against publishing with undergrads and has done so in recent past. While @looncat is right on about others publishing not meaning much for you, there are definitely PIs out there who do not think that there is any reason to put an undergraduate on an independent project or to include them on a paper they contributed to. Don't think you will be the undergrad that will change their mind!

Then, you have to be willing to put in the time, effort, and b**** work to get the other students/post docs/techs in the lab to like you and say nice things about your competence to the PI. Do yourself a favor and read the literature in the field and the papers the lab recently published. Before you have your own project you need to make sure you are actually interested in the work the lab is doing....not just "I want to do cancer research". Good luck!]

Edit: it is typically a good idea to find a lab that publishes often (>1 paper a year) so you have more opportunities to join projects that will be seen through to publication.

 

[helpabrotherout]

Even if you ask other students where they've published, that doesn't mean you'll also be able to publish in that lab. It's very project dependent and based on how much work you've done and if the data is even publishable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want to publish solely because it'll look good when in actuality tons of student get into med school every year without papers.

Also, no it is definitely not ever appropriate to ask a professor if he'll let you publish before you start your work; it shows you're doing the research to further yourself.

Just to clear it up, I actually do like research and am planning on doing it either way. I'd prefer a publication for medical school, but it's not like I'm doing it to check of boxes; I'm legitimately interested in academic medicine. But thanks for your advice; you're right in that I probably shouldn't be sounding like I'm just doing it for the adcoms.

Don't "sign up with a lab". Find a person who works in an area you are interested in and see if he needs someone -- work with a PI, not for a lab. And contrary to the prior posters advice, always find out up front whether he thinks there might be an opportunity to be on a publication or presentation. Knowing he's let others publish is helpful, but you need to strike your own understanding, not hope he treats you the same. It's a bit of an awkward dance, but you really need to find this out early on, and let him know that's your goal, or you will get exploited and some grad student will be on the paper instead of you. What you don't want to expect, ever, is to be first author on someone else's research -- for that you pretty much need to come to him with an idea of your own that he likes, or a novel Spin off on an existing project, not just jump on one of his projects and expect him to put you down as the lead. If he's generous and you do a ton of the work, you might be a second author on one of his ongoing things, but you don't generally get "gifted" the First author spot unless it's your idea. Also bear in mind that research takes time. If we are talking basic research, it could be a year or more before you've collected enough data to even start talking about submitting an abstract someplace.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. I go to a Research I school and had no problem finding a lab my freshman year with the expectation of publishing. I worked in the lab all freshman year and spent the summer writing up the paper. You certainly need a friendly and generous PI that wants you to succeed for this to work but it can absolutely be done. I also agree with Law2Doc in saying that this is absolutely something you can ask a potential PI. Just phrase it something like, "I am really interested in having research be part of my career in the future and think your lab would be a great place to learn. I was wondering if you have had undergrads in your lab publish or present before?" Anyways best of luck. My research experience was the highlight of my time in college.

First, you 100% need to make sure that the lab is not against publishing with undergrads and has done so in recent past. While @looncat is right on about others publishing not meaning much for you, there are definitely PIs out there who do not think that there is any reason to put an undergraduate on an independent project or to include them on a paper they contributed to. Don't think you will be the undergrad that will change their mind!

Then, you have to be willing to put in the time, effort, and b**** work to get the other students/post docs/techs in the lab to like you and say nice things about your competence to the PI. Do yourself a favor and read the literature in the field and the papers the lab recently published. Before you have your own project you need to make sure you are actually interested in the work the lab is doing....not just "I want to do cancer research". Good luck!]

Edit: it is typically a good idea to find a lab that publishes often (>1 paper a year) so you have more opportunities to join projects that will be seen through to publication.

Alright thanks guys. What I'm getting from this is that I should find a PI in my field of interest first, research him and his publication history, politely ask him if he would consider letting me contribute to his publications, and work my ass off at the lab so I have significant data.