Regarding this thread

[Hiyalol]

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I was going through some threads and came across this old one when looking at D.Os matching residencies

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...thic-medical-school-really-look-like.1035472/

I don't know if I am taking in the information in the wrong way but from my understanding I believe #4 poster and many others are saying that it is difficult to land a spot in residency as a D.O.

True?

I have dreams of studying in surgery and I don't want my chances diminished because of two letters after my name.

 

[bcurtis]

I don't want to be "that guy" but it would take 5 minutes and a google search to get the answers you want.

But since I'm posting anyways, I'll answer. In short, DOs generally have the same shot as MDs to land difficult residencies as long as they do just as good in school/testing. Residencies are determined through your work ethic and test scores in medical school.

 

[WastedTime]

i don't think u really understand what he/she wrote...

 

[Hiyalol]

i don't think u really understand what he/she wrote...

4th post: "No matter how smart you are or how hard you work, it is unlikely, as a DO, you will match into acgme derm, rad/onc, orthopedics, urology, ent, or neurosurgery."

 

[baxt1412]

those are all competitive matches... they are difficult for anyone.

 

[Hiyalol]

those are all competitive matches... they are difficult for anyone.

Ahh thanks, makes sense now.

 

[deleted407021]

"it is difficult to land a spot in residency as a D.O." ≠"it is unlikely, as a DO, you will match into acgme derm, rad/onc, orthopedics, urology, ent, or neurosurgery."

With the new merger, many believe the gap between DO and MD matching will close even more than it has before the merger.

 

[WastedTime]

That post is specifically talking about D.O.s matching into MD residencies

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I was going through some threads and came across this old one when looking at D.Os matching residencies

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...thic-medical-school-really-look-like.1035472/

I don't know if I am taking in the information in the wrong way but from my understanding I believe #4 poster and many others are saying that it is difficult to land a spot in residency as a D.O.

True?

I have dreams of studying in surgery and I don't want my chances diminished because of two letters after my name.

That's not how it is, but go to the Caribbean then and see how that works out. I seriously doubt you're considering an Osteopathic program because you can get into a US MD.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

4th post: "No matter how smart you are or how hard you work, it is unlikely, as a DO, you will match into acgme derm, rad/onc, orthopedics, urology, ent, or neurosurgery."

PCOM matched 4 urology and 6 orthopedic surgeons. Not sure about acgme or aoa though. 10 surgeons also. So hard work can go you these specialties at top DO school IMO.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Even at a DO school, it is definitely possible, if you put the work in. However, going an MD school still boosts your chances a significant amount, I stand by this. At this stage of the game, it is more important to get into a US school first.

 

[nontrad78]

Something i've been curious about is how the merger will affect DO chances for matching into a competitive specialty program. Take neurosurgery for example, there are obviously a limited number of MD based neurosurgical residencies in the nation to which a great deal of highly qualified individuals apply. There are already a number of these highly qualified MD candidates not accepted to the MD neurosurgical residencies, but now AOA neurosurgical residencies will open up to these folks. Just by the numbers, there will be more qualified MD candidates for the select spots, so wouldn't that decrease even further the DO chance at them?
Personally, my interest doesn't lie in any of the competitive specialties, but I've been wondering about this aspect of the merger.
Anybody have thoughts on this?

 

[osteohack10]

I was going through some threads and came across this old one when looking at D.Os matching residencies

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...thic-medical-school-really-look-like.1035472/

I don't know if I am taking in the information in the wrong way but from my understanding I believe #4 poster and many others are saying that it is difficult to land a spot in residency as a D.O.

True?

I have dreams of studying in surgery and I don't want my chances diminished because of two letters after my name.

Osteopathic medicine has a high tendency and mission to match into primary care specialties, as is the express mission of most (if not all…) of the schools. Given that, you also see more students interested in primary care from the get go head towards the DO programs. The overall match rate is comparable to MD schools so there clearly isn't much of a disparity in terms of getting ANY residency, but there is certainly difficulty in getting into competitive specialties. In terms of general surgery, there are plenty of DOs practicing.

 

[cliquesh]

As wastedtime said, I was referring to DOs in the acgme match.

In 2014, the match rate for DOs in the acgme match was 75% and 77% in the AOA match. After the scramble and SOAP nearly all DOs (~95%) found a post graduate training position of some sort.

In terms of surgery in 2014,
General surgery - 139 AOA + 44 acgme matches
Orthopedics - 103 AOA + 1 acgme
ENT - 19 AOA + 0 acgme
Neurosurgery - 16 AOA + 3 acgme
Urology - 18 AOA + unknown acgme
Opthalmology - 17 AOA + unknown acgme

There were 5153 DO graduates in 2014.

 

[kalat]

Something i've been curious about is how the merger will affect DO chances for matching into a competitive specialty program. Take neurosurgery for example, there are obviously a limited number of MD based neurosurgical residencies in the nation to which a great deal of highly qualified individuals apply. There are already a number of these highly qualified MD candidates not accepted to the MD neurosurgical residencies, but now AOA neurosurgical residencies will open up to these folks. Just by the numbers, there will be more qualified MD candidates for the select spots, so wouldn't that decrease even further the DO chance at them?
Personally, my interest doesn't lie in any of the competitive specialties, but I've been wondering about this aspect of the merger.
Anybody have thoughts on this?

MD students looking to match into DO residencies will need supplementary training in OMM as I understand it, and the merger will not be fully complete for some time (AFAIK It's 2020+?). I would not worry about a "flood" of MD students into DO residencies; DO students are getting a win with the merger as MD residencies do not require additional training and it places more pressure on residency directors to take DO applicants seriously where they were not taken seriously previously (a select number of places anyways). The only people "losing" are IMGs which may be further alienated unless their institutions continue to cough up a bunch of money to buy spots (may in turn cause increases in tuition as well?).

Also of note that, contrary to what a lot of pre-meds believe, general surgery is not a particularly competitive match.

 

[DrEnderW]

In short, DOs generally have the same shot as MDs to land difficult residencies as long as they do just as good in school/testing. Residencies are determined through your work ethic and test scores in medical school.

This is absolutely not true. Not even remotely close to being true.

http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

Something i've been curious about is how the merger will affect DO chances for matching into a competitive specialty program.

The merger has to do with the merging of accreditation bodies, not necessarily a joint match. That is something that will likely eventually come but is not even being formally discussed yet as far as I know. My opinion is that it won't impact current med students or those about to enter. Again, merger =/= joint match.

There are already a number of these highly qualified MD candidates not accepted to the MD neurosurgical residencies, but now AOA neurosurgical residencies will open up to these folks. Just by the numbers, there will be more qualified MD candidates for the select spots, so wouldn't that decrease even further the DO chance at them?

MDs would have to show OMM competency, which is being discussed as multi-month course from what I've being told from people in AOA leadership. This is all hearsay now. I would not be concerned if you are a competitive DO student trying to outcompete bottom of the barrel MD students that are forgoing the ACGME match for a community program ran by DO PDs. This has been discussed to death on the "merger threads" by myself and multiple people. It's not worth going into detail on here again but check those threads out.

 

[bcurtis]

Explain why you beleive that it is "... absolutely not true." I will agree with other in saying that it is very difficult, but that's the very nature of those resedencies; THEY'RE HARD! Sure the DO guys may have a harder path to walk, but it is entirely possible to land those resedencies if you work hard enough for them (as I stated in my previous post).

This is absolutely not true. Not even remotely close to being true.

http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/



The merger has to do with the merging of accreditation bodies, not necessarily a joint match. That is something that will likely eventually come but is not even being formally discussed yet as far as I know. My opinion is that it won't impact current med students or those about to enter. Again, merger =/= joint match.



MDs would have to show OMM competency, which is being discussed as multi-month course from what I've being told from people in AOA leadership. This is all hearsay now. I would not be concerned if you are a competitive DO student trying to outcompete bottom of the barrel MD students that are forgoing the ACGME match for a community program ran by DO PDs. This has been discussed to death on the "merger threads" by myself and multiple people. It's not worth going into detail on here again but check those threads out.

 

[DrEnderW]

Explain why you beleive that it is "... absolutely not true." I will agree with other in saying that it is very difficult, but that's the very nature of those resedencies; THEY'RE HARD! Sure the DO guys may have a harder path to walk, but it is entirely possible to land those resedencies if you work hard enough for them (as I stated in my previous post).

It's not a belief at all... there are many programs that do NOT interview DOs. The applications are not read. There are many programs with zero DO physicians in the department and never have taken a DO resident. The PDs officially do not accept DOs.

The reality is that for some programs in some specialties you will not be considered. It has nothing to do with your work ethic or board scores. I think around 25-30% of programs do not interview DOs and that number is higher in competitive specialties. In reality, the overall numbers are higher because many programs would interview but not rank.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

 

[cliquesh]

It's not a belief at all... there are many programs that do NOT interview DOs. The applications are not read. There are many programs with zero DO physicians in the department and never have taken a DO resident. The PDs officially do not accept DOs.

The reality is that for some programs in some specialties you will not be considered. It has nothing to do with your work ethic or board scores. I think around 25-30% of programs do not interview DOs and that number is higher in competitive specialties. In reality, the overall numbers are higher because many programs would interview but not rank.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Word. This is the reality.

Its not that big of a deal, but you should be realistic when you attend a DO school.

 

[nontrad78]

MD students looking to match into DO residencies will need supplementary training in OMM as I understand it, and the merger will not be fully complete for some time (AFAIK It's 2020+?). I would not worry about a "flood" of MD students into DO residencies; DO students are getting a win with the merger as MD residencies do not require additional training and it places more pressure on residency directors to take DO applicants seriously where they were not taken seriously previously (a select number of places anyways). The only people "losing" are IMGs which may be further alienated unless their institutions continue to cough up a bunch of money to buy spots (may in turn cause increases in tuition as well?).

Also of note that, contrary to what a lot of pre-meds believe, general surgery is not a particularly competitive match.

I see, that makes sense. I had a fundamental misunderstanding of the ramifications of the merger, and assumed that there would be a more immediate collapsing of matches into one, combined system.
Personally, the areas I'm interested in are not very competitive, and looking at the program rosters, there are a significant amount of FMGs, not to mention DOs, rounding out the positions. Of course, I have never been exposed to neurosurgery, but I've seen a fair amount of radiology, and had a tough enough time as a sophomore in high school to never want to be a dermatologist.

I have a sense that after graduating from a DO program, there are not that many doors closed to you that weren't already closed to you anyway. As adults, we have to realize we all have unique abilities, which means we also have some limitations. If you find that you're really good at something, and love it, by all means fight to the end to get there. Even if you don't get all the way there, with a DO or MD, you can probably get pretty close, and may be happier doing that. After you graduate from medical school (any US medical school), your ability to chart your own course is arguably greater than so many other people with just as much education. Why dwell on what you can't be? If you're not cut out to be a neurosurgeon (not OP, just speaking generally here), who says you're not cut out to be a great general surgeon, or a phenomenal hospitalist, or the best damn rheumatologist in the tri-county area?

In closing, I think Ben Carson would make a dreadful psychiatrist.

 

[bcurtis]

I didn't realize we were talking about certain programs here. My point was meant as a general statement. I'm glad to know this now because I didn't realize some programs didn't review DO applicants at all. Seems kinda strange to me, but what do I know, I'm just the lowly pre-med.

It's not a belief at all... there are many programs that do NOT interview DOs. The applications are not read. There are many programs with zero DO physicians in the department and never have taken a DO resident. The PDs officially do not accept DOs.

The reality is that for some programs in some specialties you will not be considered. It has nothing to do with your work ethic or board scores. I think around 25-30% of programs do not interview DOs and that number is higher in competitive specialties. In reality, the overall numbers are higher because many programs would interview but not rank.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

 

[DrEnderW]

I didn't realize we were talking about certain programs here. My point was meant as a general statement. I'm glad to know this now because I didn't realize some programs didn't review DO applicants at all. Seems kinda strange to me, but what do I know, I'm just the lowly pre-med.

It is strange and unfortunate but it's the reality. Most DO med students are oblivious to the facts and live in a semi-fantasy land (especially in M1-M2) so no one expects you to know.

For example only 38% of neurosurgery programs even interview DOs, but the number that actually would consider you are drastically lower (likely in the <10% range). The number is only 30% in Ortho and 28% in ENT so it's not just some programs. There are usually essentially zero DOs that match plastics, zero that match cardiothoracic, zero that match ENT, zero that match vascular, and a couple per year in NS and ortho. Derm and rad-onc are essentially zero too.

The point is it's not even close to just being "some programs." It's a colossal amount of programs in all the competitive specialties. It's extremely prohibitive to be a DO if you want an ACGME residency in those specialties. AOA residencies are a different story.