Reinventor who is running out of ideas.

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HannahSparkle

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Hello, all.

I am reaching out again for support and guidance as it seems that this cycle (my third) is going in a bad direction. I received a decision of "R" on my second and final interview today. I am wondering if there anyone can identify elements of my application that I might be able to fix or assess whether anything might be different next cycle.

As a refresher:
I failed out of undergrad in 2010 and went back to school in 2017 while working full time. My uGPA is 2.3. I took an SMP at RWJMS and graduated last fall with a 4.0. I am currently working as a medical scribe for an ortho practice and have about 1000 hours. I have about 2000 hours volunteering with direct support for individuals with mental health-related needs. My one and only MCAT is 519 and is from September 2019. It will be expiring for use for MD programs this year.

This cycle I applied to 16 DO and 30 MD. Most of my applications were complete mid-August. I have rejections from most of the MD programs but still silence from many of the DO schools.

Is this the end of the road? Obviously, my undergraduate GPA is a weak point, but it is not repairable with the number of credit hours I have taken. I am considering doing another SMP with a better linking program and retaking the MCAT. The thought of this makes me feel weary to my bones, however.
 
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HannahSparkle said:
Hello, all.

I am reaching out again for support and guidance as it seems that this cycle (my third) is going in a bad direction. I received a decision of "R" on my second and final interview today. I am wondering if there anyone can identify elements of my application that I might be able to fix or assess whether anything might be different next cycle.

As a refresher:
I failed out of undergrad in 2010 and went back to school in 2017 while working full time. My uGPA is 2.3. I took an SMP at RWJMS and graduated last fall with a 4.0. I am currently working as a medical scribe for an ortho practice and have about 1000 hours. I have about 2000 hours volunteering with direct support for individuals with mental health-related needs. My one and only MCAT is 519 and is from September 2019. It will be expiring for use for MD programs this year.

This cycle I applied to 16 DO and 30 MD. Most of my applications were complete mid-August. I have rejections from most of the MD programs but still silence from many of the DO schools. I earned 2 interviews at DO schools and have rejections from both.

Is this the end of the road? Obviously, my undergraduate GPA is a weak point, but it is not repairable with the number of credit hours I have taken. I am considering doing another SMP with a better linking program and retaking the MCAT. The thought of this makes me feel weary to my bones, however, and there is a young lady in my life who shouldn't have to keep waiting on a lifelong student to start a family.
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I'm sorry this is happening. On paper, it looks like you've done almost everything you can to reinvent yourself.

Have you had an opportunity to get feedback from schools that rejected you?

What were your other two cycles like? How did you change your strategy from one application cycle to the next?
 
Dral said:
Are we to assume your uGPA is a combination of both undergraduate programs? If so, how was your uGPA more recently?
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This is correct. My second shot at undergrad beginning in 2017 I was in the 3.3-3.4 range. I was working the night shift full time and was relearning how to study.

JanetSnakehole said:
I'm sorry this is happening. On paper, it looks like you've done almost everything you can to reinvent yourself.

Have you had an opportunity to get feedback from schools that rejected you?

What were your other two cycles like? How did you change your strategy from one application cycle to the next?
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The first cycle I got a courtesy interview from a religious school in SoCal due to an affiliation with my undergrad program. I was blissfully clueless to how ridiculous my chances were.

Second cycle I applied only to the program my MBS links with but was excluded due to uGPA.

This cycle I have the MBS under my belt, significantly more clinical experience, and rewritten/reviewed essays. I also have a much earlier application and a refined school list with 46 names on it.
 
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Ok, so recent GPA, the SMP, and that MCAT score should surely be within striking range of DO schools.

Maybe some who are more familiar with the DO process can chime in. It may be worth you just going all in on DO next cycle. You could add in some MD and see if you get lucky (no offense intended, but there is an element of luck in this whole process).

I would have thought you would have gotten a better return on your DO apps this cycle. Again, maybe someone with more familiarity with the DO process can help out.
 
HannahSparkle said:
This is correct. My second shot at undergrad beginning in 2017 I was in the 3.3-3.4 range. I was working the night shift full time and was relearning how to study.


The first cycle I got a courtesy interview from a religious school in SoCal due to an affiliation with my undergrad program. I was blissfully clueless to how ridiculous my chances were.

Second cycle I applied only to the program my MBS links with but was excluded due to uGPA.

This cycle I have the MBS under my belt, significantly more clinical experience, and rewritten/reviewed essays. I also have a much earlier application and a refined school list with 46 names on it.
Click to expand...

If I'm reading this correctly, it looks like you've only applied to the majority of your target schools one time, during this past cycle. There's still a lot of flexibility for a future cycle in terms of your school list. I would have been more concerned if you had gone through all three cycles with a very broad school list.

I agree with @Dral that perhaps another try at DO-only makes sense, maybe your state MD too. You should shadow some DOs and get a DO LOR if you haven't already - this shows commitment to the DO pathway.

I think it's going to be hard to give you more targeted advice without actually seeing your application. You need as much direct feedback on your actual application as possible. Not every medical school provides targeted feedback to unsuccessful applicants, but many do, so I suggest you do the following:

- Reach out to all of your state schools that rejected you and try to set up an application review/feedback meeting. The public schools in my state are willing to do this for reapplicants.

- Contact the DO schools that rejected you post-II and ask for their feedback, if they provide it. Maybe your application is stellar but there's something about your interviewing that needs refinement, and that would be really helpful to know. Your application was good enough to get the interview, so you want to know what changed during/after the interview.

- I would also really press your former SMP for help. You paid them gobs of money, you earned a perfect SMP GPA, so you should have some results to show for it. Why were they willing to accept you to their SMP with your uGPA but wouldn't consider you for their medical school due to the same uGPA ? How have other low uGPA graduates of the SMP found success? What do they recommend someone in your situation do next?

You may consider re-posting this question in the WAMC or Reapplication forums if this it doesn't get a lot of traction in the nontrad section.
 
JanetSnakehole said:
If I'm reading this correctly, it looks like you've only applied to the majority of your target schools one time, during this past cycle. There's still a lot of flexibility for a future cycle in terms of your school list. I would have been more concerned if you had gone through all three cycles with a very broad school list.

I agree with @Dral that perhaps another try at DO-only makes sense, maybe your state MD too. You should shadow some DOs and get a DO LOR if you haven't already - this shows commitment to the DO pathway.

I think it's going to be hard to give you more targeted advice without actually seeing your application. You need as much direct feedback on your actual application as possible. Not every medical school provides targeted feedback to unsuccessful applicants, but many do, so I suggest you do the following:

- Reach out to all of your state schools that rejected you and try to set up an application review/feedback meeting. The public schools in my state are willing to do this for reapplicants.

- Contact the DO schools that rejected you post-II and ask for their feedback, if they provide it. Maybe your application is stellar but there's something about your interviewing that needs refinement, and that would be really helpful to know. Your application was good enough to get the interview, so you want to know what changed during/after the interview.

- I would also really press your former SMP for help. You paid them gobs of money, you earned a perfect SMP GPA, so you should have some results to show for it. Why were they willing to accept you to their SMP with your uGPA but wouldn't consider you for their medical school due to the same uGPA ? How have other low uGPA graduates of the SMP found success? What do they recommend someone in your situation do next?

You may consider re-posting this question in the WAMC or Reapplication forums if this it doesn't get a lot of traction in the nontrad section.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the advice. I am reaching out for feedback from many of these programs.
 
HannahSparkle said:
Hello, all.

I am reaching out again for support and guidance as it seems that this cycle (my third) is going in a bad direction. I received a decision of "R" on my second and final interview today. I am wondering if there anyone can identify elements of my application that I might be able to fix or assess whether anything might be different next cycle.

As a refresher:
I failed out of undergrad in 2010 and went back to school in 2017 while working full time. My uGPA is 2.3. I took an SMP at RWJMS and graduated last fall with a 4.0. I am currently working as a medical scribe for an ortho practice and have about 1000 hours. I have about 2000 hours volunteering with direct support for individuals with mental health-related needs. My one and only MCAT is 519 and is from September 2019. It will be expiring for use for MD programs this year.

This cycle I applied to 16 DO and 30 MD. Most of my applications were complete mid-August. I have rejections from most of the MD programs but still silence from many of the DO schools. I earned 2 interviews at DO schools and have rejections from both.

Is this the end of the road? Obviously, my undergraduate GPA is a weak point, but it is not repairable with the number of credit hours I have taken. I am considering doing another SMP with a better linking program and retaking the MCAT. The thought of this makes me feel weary to my bones, however, and there is a young lady in my life who shouldn't have to keep waiting on a lifelong student to start a family.
Click to expand...
You may have a bad LOR, or your interview skills are lacking.

If this is your third cycle and you get shut, it's time for Plan B.

Does RWJMS have linkage? If so, that should be your best chance, followed by all the other NJ med schools.
 
So this only an idea, but it could be your only shot if applying next cycle does not work out.

How far are you willing to go to become a physician?

You didn't mention your age, but since your last undergrad class was in 2017, I'm assuming mid to late 20s. You might consider this last option. Move to Texas (if possible) and establish residency, and continue to work in the medical profession and volunteering. Then in 2027 (or 10 years from your last udergrad class) reapply to a Texas undergraduate program using College For All Texans: Academic Fresh Start It could be a community college if money is tight.

Under this program, you will have a clean slate i.e. you undergrad GPA starts at zero, but you must start over as a freshman and take English 101, etc. It's all or nothing under Texas Academic Fresh Start. You can also try to enroll in 3000 or 4000 level science courses if the college allows. You don't need to graduate again under TMDSAS, just get 90 credits, take the MCAT again and you will be eligible to apply to Texas medschools. If you do this, by the time you apply you'll be mid-late 30s, I'm guessing? Texas schools look favorable upon older non-trads with life experiences. Something to consider.

So once again, how far are you willing to go to become a physician?
 
Last edited:
HannahSparkle said:
Hello, all.

I am reaching out again for support and guidance as it seems that this cycle (my third) is going in a bad direction. I received a decision of "R" on my second and final interview today. I am wondering if there anyone can identify elements of my application that I might be able to fix or assess whether anything might be different next cycle.

As a refresher:
I failed out of undergrad in 2010 and went back to school in 2017 while working full time. My uGPA is 2.3. I took an SMP at RWJMS and graduated last fall with a 4.0. I am currently working as a medical scribe for an ortho practice and have about 1000 hours. I have about 2000 hours volunteering with direct support for individuals with mental health-related needs. My one and only MCAT is 519 and is from September 2019. It will be expiring for use for MD programs this year.

This cycle I applied to 16 DO and 30 MD. Most of my applications were complete mid-August. I have rejections from most of the MD programs but still silence from many of the DO schools.

Is this the end of the road? Obviously, my undergraduate GPA is a weak point, but it is not repairable with the number of credit hours I have taken. I am considering doing another SMP with a better linking program and retaking the MCAT. The thought of this makes me feel weary to my bones, however.
Click to expand...
I'm wondering about interview skills and your essays, but you can still hear from the DO schools. Good luck!
 
LindaAccepted said:
I'm wondering about interview skills and your essays, but you can still hear from the DO schools. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Thanks for your response. My interview skills are admittedly not as strong as I would like, but this seems irrespective of the fact that I have had such a hard time receiving interview invites (0 MD).

I don't think my essays are that weak, but I also can't afford to have them reviewed by an application advising service.

Thanks for the encouragement.
 
HannahSparkle said:
I don't think my essays are that weak, but I also can't afford to have them reviewed by an application advising service.
Click to expand...

If you get feedback that your essays need work, try checking with your alma mater's writing center or career center. My alma mater offers free personal statement help for alums applying to graduate programs. I took advantage of this service and an English PhD candidate edited my PS and a few secondaries for free. It really helped to have a skilled writer assist me in developing my narratives.
 
HannahSparkle said:
Hello, all.

I am reaching out again for support and guidance as it seems that this cycle (my third) is going in a bad direction. I received a decision of "R" on my second and final interview today. I am wondering if there anyone can identify elements of my application that I might be able to fix or assess whether anything might be different next cycle.

As a refresher:
I failed out of undergrad in 2010 and went back to school in 2017 while working full time. My uGPA is 2.3. I took an SMP at RWJMS and graduated last fall with a 4.0. I am currently working as a medical scribe for an ortho practice and have about 1000 hours. I have about 2000 hours volunteering with direct support for individuals with mental health-related needs. My one and only MCAT is 519 and is from September 2019. It will be expiring for use for MD programs this year.

This cycle I applied to 16 DO and 30 MD. Most of my applications were complete mid-August. I have rejections from most of the MD programs but still silence from many of the DO schools.

Is this the end of the road? Obviously, my undergraduate GPA is a weak point, but it is not repairable with the number of credit hours I have taken. I am considering doing another SMP with a better linking program and retaking the MCAT. The thought of this makes me feel weary to my bones, however.
Click to expand...
It sounds like you have the capacity to well. Someone like you is being screened because of your GPA. Your application is simply not getting eyeballs. Otherwise, I doubt many ADCOM would pass on your application. If it were me? I would apply to University of Guadalajara or one of the Caribbean schools. Yes, they are atrocious, but every year people from those schools match and get into residencies. The problem is that 80% of people going to these places have no business going to medical school. Getting an SMP 4.0 and an MCAT 519 means you can make it
 
Something to consider when deciding about medschool outside US...

screenshot_20220121-052625.jpg
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
It sounds like you have the capacity to well. Someone like you is being screened because of your GPA. Your application is simply not getting eyeballs. Otherwise, I doubt many ADCOM would pass on your application. If it were me? I would apply to University of Guadalajara or one of the Caribbean schools. Yes, they are atrocious, but every year people from those schools match and get into residencies. The problem is that 80% of people going to these places have no business going to medical school. Getting an SMP 4.0 and an MCAT 519 means you can make it
Click to expand...
Going for <50-50 gamble that costs 250K is never a good idea, no matter how smart the student
 
Goro said:
Going for <50-50 gamble that costs 250K is never a good idea, no matter how smart the student
Click to expand...
Yesterday I spoke briefly with the MBS program directors. They suggested I look into the Caribbean (SGU and Ross) but I am inclined to agree with Goro. While I think I can perform better than half of my peers, the thought of not matching/being allowed to take licensing exams is one extra stress I don't want to deal with.

I am looking into academic programs with better linking (Temple ACMS as chief candidate) while also holding out hope for another DO interview coming.

Thanks all for suggestions and support.
 
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Goro said:
Going for <50-50 gamble that costs 250K is never a good idea, no matter how smart the student
Click to expand...
Your comment doesn't apply here. The statistic that less than 50% of students end up matching takes into account all students. There are many people with no business of going into medicine trying these routes. It's much different when we're talking about someone with strong academic background. The person in this thread probably already spent 100k or more between their SMP, applying medical school, living expenses and extra classes who is now willing to do a second SMP. Going to an international college is actually a better choice at this point than persisting in an American route
 
HannahSparkle said:
Yesterday I spoke briefly with the MBS program directors. They suggested I look into the Caribbean (SGU and Ross) but I am inclined to agree with Goro. While I think I can perform better than half of my peers, the thought of not matching/being allowed to take licensing exams is one extra stress I don't want to deal with.

I am looking into academic programs with better linking (Temple ACMS as chief candidate) while also holding out hope for another DO interview coming.

Thanks all for suggestions and support.
Click to expand...
You won't match if you end up being in the lower half of students with a poor USMLE and you apply to unrealistic specialties. I agree the Caribbean route is not ideal for most people, but you are at the end of your road. You decide how much you want medicine. Your chance with American schools is currently Zero. Your chances internationally are actually pretty decent
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Your comment doesn't apply here. The statistic that less than 50% of students end up matching takes into account all students. There are many people with no business of going into medicine trying these routes. It's much different when we're talking about someone with strong academic background. The person in this thread probably already spent 100k or more between their SMP, applying medical school, living expenses and extra classes who is now willing to do a second SMP. Going to an international college is actually a better choice at this point than persisting in an American route
Click to expand...
You're ignoring the fact that the playing field for img's is getting worse
 
OP, of the 16 DO schools you applied to did you apply to new schools?
I would apply to ALL of the DO schools and especially focus on the news schools. BCOM, ARCOM, ICOM, LUCOM, CUSOM, NSU.
Apply to everything on Goro's bad boy list and more. Apply to every DO school.
 
Goro said:
You're ignoring the fact that the playing field for img's is getting worse
Click to expand...
Her chances to get into a US school are effectively zero, which means zero chances of matching and being a doctor. This is a person with a strong background, which makes them unlikely to be a student at the bottom of their class. If they want to be a doctor, this is it. SMP #2 isn't going to be solving this and will result in a loss of a ton of time and money, whereas IMG from SGU or Guadalajara with a decent USMLE >220 is good enough for an FM spot. The top 1/3 of each class will continue to match -- especially now that CMS will open 1,000 new slots in rural areas and FM is planning on weakening the requirements to build more residencies

CMS Funding 1,000 New Residency Slots for Hospitals Serving Rural & Underserved Communities | CMS

Administration takes action to address access to care, workforce shortages in high-need areas
www.cms.gov www.cms.gov
 
My apologies for bumping, but I wanted to share with someone . . .

The universe apparently heard my impotent scream into the void, took pity, and sent me 2 interviews today (1 DO, 1 MD)

Of course I maintain the attitude of "rejected until proven otherwise".
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Her chances to get into a US school are effectively zero, which means zero chances of matching and being a doctor. This is a person with a strong background, which makes them unlikely to be a student at the bottom of their class. If they want to be a doctor, this is it. SMP #2 isn't going to be solving this and will result in a loss of a ton of time and money, whereas IMG from SGU or Guadalajara with a decent USMLE >220 is good enough for an FM spot. The top 1/3 of each class will continue to match -- especially now that CMS will open 1,000 new slots in rural areas and FM is planning on weakening the requirements to build more residencies

CMS Funding 1,000 New Residency Slots for Hospitals Serving Rural & Underserved Communities | CMS

Administration takes action to address access to care, workforce shortages in high-need areas
www.cms.gov www.cms.gov
Click to expand...
I agree with @AlbinoHawk DO . OPs stats are FAR better than mine. I applied mostly DO my first cycle without luck. The second cycle I added more MDs and was successful (even interviewed at a private MD) and managed to get accepted at an MD school that rejected me the first time around. My app was virtually unchanged (there's an element of luck in the process).

If OP goes to a foreign school they'll undoubtedly be the cream of the crop and match into a US residency
 
HannahSparkle said:
My apologies for bumping, but I wanted to share with someone . . .

The universe apparently heard my impotent scream into the void, took pity, and sent me 2 interviews today (1 DO, 1 MD)

Of course I maintain the attitude of "rejected until proven otherwise".
Click to expand...
Congratulations! 2 II's in one day! Sounds like your scream was pretty potent.

However, if you lack confidence in your interview skills, get some coaching. You're so close, and reapplication is expensive.
 
Re-work your LOR’s, personal statement, and interviewing skills. It’s been too many cycles if you have the same LOR’s.

But most importantly, apply to ALL DO schools. 16 on your 3rd cycle? Really? You either really dropped the ball there or you can’t stand the idea of becoming a DO. The latter is likely to show on interview day, so I’d squash that complex asap if you have it. As others have mentioned, you need to have all the new and ‘heightened monitoring’ DO schools on your list as a minimum. Having an A in hand to a school you don’t really like is 1000x better than having no A on your fourth cycle.

Others have also mentioned the Caribbean. I’d love to learn how step 1 going p/f has impacted their match rates. Hopefully it’s for the better. If not then be very careful about the Caribbean. They’re most likely to kick you when you’re already down, and that’s on a good day.
 
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Very exciting news that you got two more interviews. Definitely drill interview skills. I think if you perform average on an interview a lot of schools will waitlist you. Do great and you get accepted or high waitlist. 2 rejections post-interview seems like they're seeing something they don't like during your interview. Luckily interviews can be improved with practice and honest feedback, more quickly than almost any other part of the application. Good luck OP.
 
TragicalDrFaust said:
Very exciting news that you got two more interviews. Definitely drill interview skills. I think if you perform average on an interview a lot of schools will waitlist you. Do great and you get accepted or high waitlist. 2 rejections post-interview seems like they're seeing something they don't like during your interview. Luckily interviews can be improved with practice and honest feedback, more quickly than almost any other part of the application. Good luck OP.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the feedback.

In case anyone is invested in the story, here is the conclusion:

I hired an interview coach using an online gig website (sorry Ms. Abraham, I'd love to hire a professional, but scribe pay isn't all that great). Practicing interviewing helped me get my shtuff together and not fall apart in the interview.

Today I heard back form both schools. I was accepted to the DO school and the MD school asked me to come back for a second interview. Of course, I am delighted to be accepted, but a bit confused about the repeat interview. The important thing is that whatever happens, I will be going to med school in the fall and I will NOT be retaking the MCAT. *phew* Life is good.
 
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HannahSparkle said:
Thanks for the feedback.

In case anyone is invested in the story, here is the conclusion:

I hired an interview coach using an online gig website (sorry Linda, I'd love to hire a professional, but scribe pay isn't all that great). Practicing interviewing helped me get my shtuff together and not fall apart in the interview.

Today I heard back form both schools. I was accepted to the DO school and the MD school asked me to come back for a second interview. Of course, I am delighted to be accepted, but a bit confused about the repeat interview. The important thing is that whatever happens, I will be going to med school in the fall and I will NOT be retaking the MCAT. *phew* Life is good.
Click to expand...

Thanks for coming back with an exciting update!

I know of an MD state school that sometimes requests a second interview if there is a significant discrepancy in an applicant's interviewing scores (e.g., 3 people interview you, two say "Absolutely admit" and one says "Absolutely reject"). I don't know if this is the case for you, but basically what this means is they don't feel comfortable making a decision on you yet. More people want to meet you. Try not to let it stress you out and treat your second interview as a brand-new opportunity to impress people. I know you can do it.

I hope you go into this MD interview totally relaxed and happy, because no matter the outcome, you are going to be a doctor!!! Congratulations!
 
HannahSparkle said:
Thanks for the feedback.

In case anyone is invested in the story, here is the conclusion:

I hired an interview coach using an online gig website (sorry Ms. Abraham, I'd love to hire a professional, but scribe pay isn't all that great). Practicing interviewing helped me get my shtuff together and not fall apart in the interview.

Today I heard back form both schools. I was accepted to the DO school and the MD school asked me to come back for a second interview. Of course, I am delighted to be accepted, but a bit confused about the repeat interview. The important thing is that whatever happens, I will be going to med school in the fall and I will NOT be retaking the MCAT. *phew* Life is good.
Click to expand...
Outstanding news!!!!

Now go read this:
 
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