Relative difficulty of doctorate (esp psyd) courses and requirements... pre-emptive fears of failure

[PsychNLife]

So as part of my application process, I've taken a look at a few of the handbooks/curriculums for various programs... and it seems that most have a 2 C+ or B- automatic dismissal policy! Don't get me wrong, I don't often get grades below a B, but it's happened once or twice (I think I've gotten one C and one B- in my undergraduate career). Beyond these few, I'm between an A- and B+ average student. When I do get poor grades, it generally occurs with the more complex mathematics, neuro, or more frustrating methods classes (which I am fully aware I will have to take in grad school). I obviously don't intend to get B-'s or C's in these courses, and I intend to seek help if I struggle with them (which I probably will), but the mere idea of being DISMISSED ENTIRELY for perhaps 2 poor grades is absolutely terrifying to me.

Is there some type of general grading curve, and relatively how difficult are these courses compared to undergrad courses? Is there generally acknowledgment when a professor is grading that giving a B- could end a student's career, and thus merit some leniency?

I also have some questions as to how programs look at the interpersonal component of evaluations.... which slightly worries me. For example, eye contact is something I struggle with and I'm working on as best as I can. I know it's silly, but could eye contact issues, or perhaps some initial shyness...or just like some awkwardness........ cause something as major as a dismissal? Obviously major issues like being angry or condescending with a client might warrant dismissal.....but what about the small things?

These might be kind of silly questions but it's been making me fairly anxious about thriving in a program.

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[Ollie123]

I know plenty of people who did not make it through graduate school. I know literally zero people who did not make it through because they failed their coursework. It is generally viewed as the easiest part of graduate school (by far). Don't expect faculty to be lenient, but courses are generally designed such that widespread C's are exceedingly rare and if it happens you probably screwed up pretty royally (i.e. mass grade-inflation). Especially in a PsyD program, I can't imagine there being many complex methods/stats classes. Heck, even in my extremely research-focused PhD program you really only got them if you went outside the department (e.g. took machine learning in engineering or something like that). Most PsyDs I know barely got much stats training beyond what a good undergrad course would cover.

Mild awkwardness starting clinical work is normative and expected. I would actually consider the absence of mild awkwardness in a newbie clinician a bad sign and an indication that a supervisee isn't taking things seriously enough. Obviously supervisors vary, but this is also rarely an issue and not something likely to get you dismissed unless you really deserve it (i.e. are a complete interpersonal trainwreck with poor boundaries that seems unlikely to improve with supervision).

 

[PsychNLife]

I know plenty of people who did not make it through graduate school. I know literally zero people who did not make it through because they failed their coursework. It is generally viewed as the easiest part of graduate school (by far). Don't expect faculty to be lenient, but courses are generally designed such that widespread C's are exceedingly rare and if it happens you probably screwed up pretty royally (i.e. mass grade-inflation). Especially in a PsyD program, I can't imagine there being many complex methods/stats classes. Heck, even in my extremely research-focused PhD program you really only got them if you went outside the department (e.g. took machine learning in engineering or something like that). Most PsyDs I know barely got much stats training beyond what a good undergrad course would cover.

Mild awkwardness starting clinical work is normative and expected. I would actually consider the absence of mild awkwardness in a newbie clinician a bad sign and an indication that a supervisee isn't taking things seriously enough. Obviously supervisors vary, but this is also rarely an issue and not something likely to get you dismissed unless you really deserve it (i.e. are a complete interpersonal trainwreck with poor boundaries that seems unlikely to improve with supervision).

This is quite helpful, it's good to know that it's uncommon to fail due to classes. Perhaps if I just make sure I get support for any maths/neuro stuff it won't be a problem. It's just such an odd policy to me given that in undergrad a few sub-par grades isn't such a huge deal.

In regards to interpersonal stuff, I should mention that I do have a few general interpersonal issues, mostly related to ADHD and just not having much social time throughout my schooling lol. Mainly it's stuff like accidentally interrupting, eye contact stuff, sometimes zoning out, occasionally not being interpersonally as aware as I should be and saying something that gets taken in a negative way that I didn't mean. I know they're not major but I'm sure that it's something supervisors (and myself) would want me to get better at..... I just care that these types of things aren't grounds for dismissal from a program.

 

[Ollie123]

I mean - I'd say that anyone within the 95% CI for all of humans (not just "highly-educated excellent students becoming doctors") is probably fine. Frankly even if you aren't, but can improve quickly with training you might slide by just fine. If this is some nuanced issue you notice with a therapist that is one thing. If every person you meet walks away thinking "My god, that person is a real a-hole and I hope I never talk to them again" it might be a problem and you should probably get that addressed before pursuing graduate training.

Basically, if you are starting as a functional-but-imperfect adult who is capable of maintaining friendships, isn't loathed by everyone on earth including their own family, can come across as not-a-sociopath when meeting someone new and is willing to invest energy into getting better, this isn't something I would stress about.

 

[Mojito_15]

I know plenty of people who did not make it through graduate school. I know literally zero people who did not make it through because they failed their coursework. It is generally viewed as the easiest part of graduate school (by far). Don't expect faculty to be lenient, but courses are generally designed such that widespread C's are exceedingly rare and if it happens you probably screwed up pretty royally (i.e. mass grade-inflation). Especially in a PsyD program, I can't imagine there being many complex methods/stats classes. Heck, even in my extremely research-focused PhD program you really only got them if you went outside the department (e.g. took machine learning in engineering or something like that). Most PsyDs I know barely got much stats training beyond what a good undergrad course would cover.

Mild awkwardness starting clinical work is normative and expected. I would actually consider the absence of mild awkwardness in a newbie clinician a bad sign and an indication that a supervisee isn't taking things seriously enough. Obviously supervisors vary, but this is also rarely an issue and not something likely to get you dismissed unless you really deserve it (i.e. are a complete interpersonal trainwreck with poor boundaries that seems unlikely to improve with supervision).

I teach in a masters level- not Psy.D. program- but I know and have removed some grad students for bad grades in the program I teach in. We remove a few a year actually from our program. But it usually only happens when students are trying to fail. For example, they plagiarize, they don't turn in assignments, they don't come get help when they're not doing well, etc.. Obviously don't cheat and just know that if your grade moves down to a B, you should go to office hours. Otherwise, it should be ok.

 

[cara susanna]

Yes, I agree with the above comments. It's pretty difficult to get C's in grad school.

 

[PsychNLife]

Yes, I agree with the above comments. It's pretty difficult to get C's in grad school.

Would you say this is due to some type of grade inflation like mentioned above? is this standard at most programs?

 

[ClinicalABA]

Would you say this is due to some type of grade inflation like mentioned above? is this standard at most programs?

at my program (small cohort, fully-funded Ph.D.) if you were even sniffing at below a B in a course, you'd be in for a sit down with the prof and, most likely, your mentor, who would would work with you to develop a plan so that you would not get below a B. Grades weren't inflated, per se, but you got what you needed to be proficient enough to get a B (remember the old saying "B=Ph.D."). All my courses were pass/fail, with passing being a B or higher.

 

[psych.meout]

at my program (small cohort, fully-funded Ph.D.) if you were even sniffing at below a B in a course, you'd be in for a sit down with the prof and, most likely, your mentor, who would would work with you to develop a plan so that you would not get below a B. Grades weren't inflated, per se, but you got what you needed to be proficient enough to get a B (remember the old saying "B=Ph.D."). All my courses were pass/fail, with passing being a B or higher.

Yeah, I don't know how much grade inflation there is in my program as opposed to the type of people who would go for a doctoral program like this being a bunch of overachieving, type A, try-hards who will obsess over every little detail because they can't stand losing any points.

We have a similar policy about the first B- equaling a warning and the second leading to dismissal from the program. I know some students have who received their B- warnings and those typically only come from the aforementioned complex stats courses. No one has been kicked for grades as far as I know.

 

[WisNeuro]

Would you say this is due to some type of grade inflation like mentioned above? is this standard at most programs?

Well, in reputable programs, when you only accept 5-7 people, you can be pretty sure those people are intellectually prepared for graduate education. I've never known anyone to fail out of grad school due to grades. Now, when it comes to diploma mills, I've known some people who taught at the local one before it got shut down, there was A LOT of pressure to make sure that most of not all students got above a certain grade from the administration. Money before public safety, apparently.

 

[PsychNLife]

Well, in reputable programs, when you only accept 5-7 people, you can be pretty sure those people are intellectually prepared for graduate education. I've never known anyone to fail out of grad school due to grades. Now, when it comes to diploma mills, I've known some people who taught at the local one before it got shut down, there was A LOT of pressure to make sure that most of not all students got above a certain grade from the administration. Money before public safety, apparently.

I’m confused, you’re saying that at large cohort schools there’s pressure to make sure students do well? That doesn’t sound like a bad thing. Sorry if I might be reading that wrong. Or did you mean they just passed everyone ?

 

[MiniLop]

at my program (small cohort, fully-funded Ph.D.) if you were even sniffing at below a B in a course, you'd be in for a sit down with the prof and, most likely, your mentor, who would would work with you to develop a plan so that you would not get below a B. Grades weren't inflated, per se, but you got what you needed to be proficient enough to get a B (remember the old saying "B=Ph.D."). All my courses were pass/fail, with passing being a B or higher.

If you got an A- in my program (a funded PhD), that was a sign that the professor had significant reservations about the quality of your work. All grades were based on papers though, not tests. An A was a given unless you really messed up.

 

[WisNeuro]

I’m confused, you’re saying that at large cohort schools there’s pressure to make sure students do well? That doesn’t sound like a bad thing. Sorry if I might be reading that wrong.

You're saying that it does not sound like a bad thing that instructors are either pressured to make tests/exams painfully easy, or to "tweak" grades so that people who objectively failed, pass?

 

[PsychNLife]

You're saying that it does not sound like a bad thing that instructors are either pressured to make tests/exams painfully easy, or to "tweak" grades so that people who objectively failed, pass?

Ah I misread that. I thought you meant that there was pressure to make sure students genuinely did well. I see you’re saying instead you meant about the quality and pass-ability of the courses.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ah I misread that. I thought you meant that there was pressure to make sure students genuinely did well. I see you’re saying instead you meant about the quality and pass-ability of the courses.

Ah no, a work colleague of mine showed me the test that she wanted to give to her assessment class that they made her change to be easier. It was honestly something I would have expected my psychometrists to pass after a week of training, and apparently that was still "too hard" for this school for a semester of classwork.

 

[PsychNLife]

Ah no, a work colleague of mine showed me the test that she wanted to give to her assessment class that they made her change to be easier. It was honestly something I would have expected my psychometrists to pass after a week of training, and apparently that was still "too hard" for this school for a semester of classwork.

Would you mind saying which school this was ? Also does a teacher not have control over the material taught and class assignments at these schools?

 

[WisNeuro]

Would you mind saying which school this was ? Also does a teacher not have control over the material taught and class assignments at these schools?

It is part of a system that was closed down this past year. And, I'm sure there is a good amount of control in reputable programs. In diploma mills, it would appear not as much. I was never pressured to change my grading or material when I used to teach.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Where I was at in the past everyone got As. If someone got a B that would be a huge deal and a sign that something major was going down. I think my program also had to policy that anything below a B was failing and you were able to be removed. This happened 1 time that I know of, and there were other non-academic things going on.

Grad school is not like undergrad. Courses are the easiest part and where the smallest amount of your time goes. I had 2 tests in all the years I was there.

 

[WisNeuro]

Grad school is not like undergrad. Courses are the easiest part and where the smallest amount of your time goes. I had 2 tests in all the years I was there.

We definitely had a lot of tests in grad school. I imagine there is some variance here.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

We definitely had a lot of tests in grad school. I imagine there is some variance here.

Fascinating. Makes sense there would be diversity here. We mostly had papers and presentations. Also a lot of grading based on 'participation' in discussions and such each week.

 

[PsychNLife]

Where I was at in the past everyone got As. If someone got a B that would be a huge deal and a sign that something major was going down. I think my program also had to policy that anything below a B was failing and you were able to be removed. This happened 1 time that I know of, and there were other non-academic things going on.

Grad school is not like undergrad. Courses are the easiest part and where the smallest amount of your time goes. I had 2 tests in all the years I was there.

In this case.... what’s the most difficult part ? It’s weird to wrap my head around classes not being at least as important as undergrad, but it seems like that’s the consensus.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Time in your lab working on grants, data anlaysis, publishing and presenting research, teaching and grading duties, developing your clinical skills and working with patients in practicum, utilizing supervision effectively, learning how to write notes and reports, adminster and interpret assessments, go to clinic meetings and contribute as able, reading and learning a ton of new material non-stop, qualifying examinations, personal and professional development, learning to say yes or no to a ton of unpaid opportunities to collaborate, writing and defending a dissertation, potentially a masters thesis, generally being pleasant to those around you while often stretched thin.

 

[futureapppsy2]

In general, most grad school grads are inflated, but I did know a couple of people who failed out for not being able to pass our (somewhat legendarily intense) required stats core. I've also known some people at various programs who failed out after failing comps/prelims twice.

 

[cara susanna]

I know someone who failed out due to grades, but there were other problems besides grades.

 

[WisNeuro]

In general, most grad school grads are inflated, but I did know a couple of people who failed out for not being able to pass our (somewhat legendarily intense) required stats core. I've also known some people at various programs who failed out after failing comps/prelims twice.

Our comps were pretty intense, 2-day written exam, 3 page reading list. 2 years after I graduated, they changed it to being able to waive the written comp if you had a 1st author pub in a peer-reviewed journal. That would have definitely been easier than the written comp.

 

[PhDStudentCP]

I'm a current PhD student, and I can obviously only speak for my program and not necessarily every program out there, but my impression overall is that schools don't just wantonly dismiss students. Especially in fully funded, small cohort programs. If a student is struggling, that would likely be identified and hopefully remedied before it gets to the point of dismissal. That being said, a doctoral degree is challenging and expectations are high, rightfully so. Therefore, if a student is chronically underperforming academically I'm not sure doctoral education would be right for them?

In regard to your question about interpersonal interactions and eye contact, etc. That might be something you want to improve your skills on before interview day. While nervousness in an admissions interview is totally normal, I think that in order to put your best foot forward, it might help to work on that ahead of time

 

[futureapppsy2]

In my experience, it’s more common for people to trudge along as ABD forever, eventually hit university time limits, and disappear than it is for them to get formally kicked out.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

The only people I know who have been kicked out of either phd or psyd programs was either the result of serious characterological symptomatology running unchecked (or coming up against commensurate characterological pathology with faculty who have the power), or ABD forever.

 

[deleted343839]

In this case.... what’s the most difficult part ? It’s weird to wrap my head around classes not being at least as important as undergrad, but it seems like that’s the consensus.

Think of your didactic classes as the "pre-reading" for the hands-on learning experiences you will have as a researcher and clinician in training. They are important, foundational knowledge, but a lot of the "meat" of graduate training (as in other clinical fields) is learning by doing.

I know it's silly, but could eye contact issues, or perhaps some initial shyness...or just like some awkwardness........ cause something as major as a dismissal?

Weirdness or awkwardness are... not all that unusual in psychology graduate students. It's kind of an open secret. Not to say that most are socially inept but interpersonal quirks are not necessarily ruled out in admissions.

When you start clinical training you'll be given some feedback about how you come off and that can be uncomfortable. It's really most intensive in the beginning, and it can feel sometimes like your every word or facial expression is being scrutinized. But your supervisors will be less interested in where you start from and much more interested in how you develop with feedback. If you're a year or two into clinical practica and you're not really showing signs of growth, you're going to have more of a problem. Some students are already pretty skilled in developing rapport by virtue of their social skills, temperament, etc., and they have an easier time with this. But everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and it's unlikely that you'll be dismissed for being a bit awkward as long as you are showing evidence of working on it.

I'm a current PhD student, and I can obviously only speak for my program and not necessarily every program out there, but my impression overall is that schools don't just wantonly dismiss students. Especially in fully funded, small cohort programs. If a student is struggling, that would likely be identified and hopefully remedied before it gets to the point of dismissal.

This is definitely true. Programs with small cohorts and intensive mentorship invest a lot of time and energy into their students and don't take dismissals lightly. During my 6 years in residence at my graduate program (that is, before internship year), I recall one student being outright asked to leave the program, and another two drop out voluntarily. Whenever feasible the people leaving the program early were encouraged to at least meet requirements for a master's degree so they left with something. But for students who were struggling, the more typical solutions were things like developing a remediation plan, taking time off for serious personal issues, getting therapy for themselves, and/or switching advisors. Even people who were really slow in meeting milestones were given enough support to make it through.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agreed with what's been said above. I know of one student who failed out of my program (all those years ago) due to grades. I don't know if other factors were also in play. I know of one or two more students who earned a C and eventually left the program, but that was more because the grade was indicative of other issues that did not resolve. In my experience at least, the majority of the people who didn't complete the program either left voluntarily or were ABD indefinitely and timed out.

Awkwardness likely won't in and of itself cause a dismissal, but like MamaPhD said, can lead to some potentially difficult-to-hear feedback from supervisors, particularly on. If growth doesn't occur and the behaviors continue to consistently interfere with service provision, it could become a bigger issue.

 

[Justanothergrad]

If I had it my way, I wouldn't assign grades at all. It's inconsistent with the professional identity that I am trying to get my students to develop (e.g., no one cares if you get an A or a B, they care if you are competent). It's why I encourage de-emphasis of the GPA on internship apps. The move towards competency based education bench-marks exists for this reason. I'd prefer all Pass/Fail. At the end of the day, you learn enough or you don't (getting a 501 on the EPPP works just like getting a 750 [assuming 500 is the state cut score like most care]). Now, where I set the P may be higher than others in some areas, but that's why remediation plans and sitdowns occur - to provide a roadmap to improvement. Of course, I'm in a small program and not trying to milk people for all they're worth to support my university.

 

[psych.meout]

If I had it my way, I wouldn't assign grades at all. It's inconsistent with the professional identity that I am trying to get my students to develop (e.g., no one cares if you get an A or a B, they care if you are competent). It's why I encourage de-emphasis of the GPA on internship apps. The move towards competency based education bench-marks exists for this reason. I'd prefer all Pass/Fail. At the end of the day, you learn enough or you don't (getting a 501 on the EPPP works just like getting a 750 [assuming 500 is the state cut score like most care]). Now, where I set the P may be higher than others in some areas, but that's why remediation plans and sitdowns occur - to provide a roadmap to improvement. Of course, I'm in a small program and not trying to milk people for all they're worth to support my university.

Is there any issue with making all the coursework P/F at the graduate school- or university-level (not program-level)?

Also, don't F-grants ask about GPA and coursework?

 

[Justanothergrad]

Is there any issue with making all the coursework P/F at the graduate school- or university-level (not program-level)?

Also, don't F-grants ask about GPA and coursework?

I know some of the P/F resistance comes from some APA reviewers since it gives a way to show progress in learning (although APA is clear that grades/classes are only one way - although the most common). Can't speak to the F grants, but probably - another logistical issue born out of habit rather than evidence supporting utility for GPA. just not good discriminant utility that couldn't also be detected with P/F.

related, I had grad profs who treated the A/B as a P/F by just saying you earn an A or you fail. I had others who did 'competitive grading' where half earned an A and half a B, no matter what.

 

[psych.meout]

I had others who did 'competitive grading' where half earned an A and half a B, no matter what.

 

[futureapppsy2]

If I had it my way, I wouldn't assign grades at all. It's inconsistent with the professional identity that I am trying to get my students to develop (e.g., no one cares if you get an A or a B, they care if you are competent). It's why I encourage de-emphasis of the GPA on internship apps. The move towards competency based education bench-marks exists for this reason. I'd prefer all Pass/Fail. At the end of the day, you learn enough or you don't (getting a 501 on the EPPP works just like getting a 750 [assuming 500 is the state cut score like most care]). Now, where I set the P may be higher than others in some areas, but that's why remediation plans and sitdowns occur - to provide a roadmap to improvement. Of course, I'm in a small program and not trying to milk people for all they're worth to support my university.

Eh, ancedotally, I’ve found letter grading of grad students to generally match up with my overall impressions of their end-of-course skills. A’s are pretty solid, B’s just meet the competencies and could maybe use some more diligent monitoring going forward, anyone below a B needs remediation, etc.

 

[Ollie123]

Also, don't F-grants ask about GPA and coursework?

They definitely do. They may even sink your entire application because you have too many P/F courses your freshman year of undergrad. Even in the second round after you have explained those were AP classes you took in high school that transferred in on a P/F basis because that is how your University handles it, and a 4.0 graduate GPA that includes 8 advanced stats courses should mitigate any concerns about your ability to pass Freshman bio anyways.

Not that I am bitter or anything...

 

[foreverbull]

In my program, I knew one person who failed Counseling Techniques, but that person was later kicked out of the program for something unrelated, as others have also noted seems to be the case. The student reported that they “froze” during counseling simulations and didn’t respond (ever—throughout the semester, allegedly). As nervous as most students are, this is extremely rare. I was a TA in the class and never saw a single student in my class bomb the simulation part. I was also extremely nervous when being watched as a student in techniques class, but did fine, as the vast majority of students will do.
Instructors recognize students’ inherent nervousness in being watched and their “beginner” status, and they take these into consideration. If you’re really worried, practicing “counseling” a friend/family member for a few minutes wouldn’t hurt and would give you a feel for the simulations and practice with eye contact and using basic interviewing skills (i.e. the Ivey and Ivey textbooks).

Essentially, what faculty/supervisors want to see is that you improve and progress over time and are open to feedback. Taking in supervisor feedback on your counseling performance and incorporating it into your practice over the course of each semester and the entirety of grad school is HUGELY important. What isn’t important is being perfect from the start.

As far as general classes go, expectations are reasonably high but so is student performance at that level. Sometimes comps were failed in year 4 and a student had I believe one chance to redo the portion they failed, but this was also very rare. The coursework was heavy, but doable and varied by class. But your time will be split between class, practicum, research, and assistantships/labs if you’re in a funded program, so sometimes you’ll find that what’s “hard” has more to do with which of those activities you’re struggling with in the moment, which can change.

 

[futureapppsy2]

In my program, I knew one person who failed Counseling Techniques, but that person was later kicked out of the program for something unrelated, as others have also noted seems to be the case. The student reported that they “froze” during counseling simulations and didn’t respond (ever—throughout the semester, allegedly). As nervous as most students are, this is extremely rare. I was a TA in the class and never saw a single student in my class bomb the simulation part. I was also extremely nervous when being watched as a student in techniques class, but did fine, as the vast majority of students will do.
Instructors recognize students’ inherent nervousness in being watched and their “beginner” status, and they take these into consideration. If you’re really worried, practicing “counseling” a friend/family member for a few minutes wouldn’t hurt and would give you a feel for the simulations and practice with eye contact and using basic interviewing skills (i.e. the Ivey and Ivey textbooks).

My doctoral advisor said that the only student who he ever failed in his Counseling Skills course was a student who, no matter what they tried to do in terms of remediation, could not ask an open-ended question to save their life.