Religion in medicine...

[velo]

all you do is shine the light of God.

ouch! get that light out of my eyes a**hole!

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[G0S2]

Interesting essay in the NEJM:

Volume 350:1176-1178
March 18, 2004
Number 12






God at the Bedside
Jerome Groopman, M.D.

 

[DOJDEE]

ouch! get that light out of my eyes a**hole!

see you have ppl like this that say stuff like that... either joking or serious... and basically everyone around will see it the same way - "why is that aweful christian saying ANYTHING about god?!?! this is so boring lets run accross the street to new age books and find out how we become gods..." hehe... ok well maybe not quite like that but religion is a huge part of what nearly everyone does whether they know it or not.

anyways... point is... you cannot force someone to believe something... just talk to them about it if they want to know more about it... pretty simple....

 

[DOJDEE]

Interesting essay in the NEJM:

Volume 350:1176-1178
March 18, 2004
Number 12






God at the Bedside
Jerome Groopman, M.D.

here is a link to the article incase you dont have a paying account with the nejm...

http://www.satevepost.org/issues/2004/0708/printer_04-0708-godatbedside.shtml

 

[ElKapitan]

A second point, why is everyone so offended by being told about another religion? I for one, would have no problem if a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Mormon, etc. explained to me his faith and why he believes it, even at my deathbed. I might go over why I do NOT believe that, or I might actually get convinced into believing (however, that is VERY unlikely). But I would never be offended, because there really is nothing offended about. I am confident enough in my faith, that there is no reason to worry or fear being told about another.

I suppose when someone is dying, it is rather selfish and arrogant to tell them about YOUR views on religion. If they are looking for some comfort in their last moments, if they are asking you for comfort, then yes talking about your views could be warranted. However, to assume, without regard to their feelings or beliefs, that your patient needs your consul on issues of faith is asinine.

As for being told about another religion, I don't think people are offended by this. People are offended when they are told they are sinning because of the way they live (sex before marriage, being gay). People get offended when they are told they will go to hell if they don't find Jesus. People get offended when there is an air of condescesion from a preacher. Overall, It would be the prosecutory nature of christian dogma that is rather offensive. Ironically, this type of mindset would certainly upset the true Jesus.

 

[G0S2]

here is a link to the article incase you dont have a paying account with the nejm...

http://www.satevepost.org/issues/2004/0708/printer_04-0708-godatbedside.shtml

Thank you for doing that. I always take for granted my university granted free access.

 

[W222]

DOJDEE The classic arguement against abortion is that "the rape statistics are so low, its doesn't even matter." Ahh, considering rape is one of the most un-reported crimes in the US, how can you accurately point to a statistic on rape and abortion? The numbers are more likely to be much higher becuase women would rather not report a rape and just get an abortion. THINK OF THAT ONE.

ALSO, if you outlaw abortion under any circumstance you are basically punishing women who were raped and damning those who need one for medical reasons. If a woman with other medical issues develops pre-aclampsia during her pregnancy and it cannot be controlled then that woman has a high risk of dying. Aborting the child is the only option, viability is roughly 22 weeks and C-section is not an option prior to that. Your arguemtn is stuck in the dark ages of medicine.

 

[Hersey]

Most hospitals offer some kind of spiritual care. Many larger hospitals have full-time chaplains in a variety of religious denominations. Even smaller facilities usually have nearby clergy on call. As physicians, it might not be our business to bring up OUR religion, but I think it's fair to say that spiritual/emotional well-being can have a huge impact on the patient's outcome. Why not just ask, "would you like me to put in a call and have a chaplain stop by?" Look at it this way: whether we care inwardly about religion or not, shouldn't we use every available tool to help the patient?

(I have some experience with this. All of my volunteering time has been with the spiritual care department of a major metropolitan hospital.)

 

[W222]

Excellent post ELKAPITAN. I had a friend hint that he (being a born again) would preach to his patients who were homosexual that their lives were wrong. I was completely disgusted by this, how can he judge? According to Jesus - no one can judge other than God.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I also have no problem learning about or discussing religion. What offends me is when people assume you are of a certain faith. I was sick at work (a sandwich shop) a few years ago and this customer asked me if I was feeling bad. When I said yes, he grabs my hand and says "Let us pray. Lord Jesus, please heal this sister...etc." I was like WTF?!? Completely inappropriate. And it would be even more so coming from a doctor.

OK, that is entirely nutty, and I would never do this, because I cannot ask someone who doesn't believe to pray with me - it's entirely meaningless. However, if I care about the person, I think its OK to pray silently (within oneself) - or are the PC police out to squash even this, since it is "offensive"?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Frankly, some people are not getting my arguement. RELIGION ie, I am a Christian doctor so I am going to stress the Christian world view to my patients, even though I practice in an area that represents a number of religions. THAT IS FRANKLY WRONG, BOTH LEGALY AND ETHICALLY. Atleast according to all my med school professors it is wrong. Now, discussing meaning of life and a person's role and search for meaning is all well within the bounds of good practice. You overstep your role when you preach to patients, YOU WILL LOSE PATIENTS DOING THIS AND POSSIBLY OPEN YOURSELF UP TO A WHOLE WORLD OF TROUBLE.

Now, you personally may not believe in abortion. BUT preventing a patient from getting an abortion by not refering one is wrong. Frankly, its disturbing that people would do this and completely unethical. You can tell the patient that you think they should consider other options but refusing to refer one is also dangerous. SAY FOR INSTANCE: you have patient that has a heart condition which, if she carries this child to term, puts her life at serious risk and the chance of death is extremely high. Well, if you refuse you have essentially endangered this person's life and are legally open to malpractice suits in the event of her death. This is the truth, like it or not.

I entirely disagree. Abortion is a UNIVERSALLY KNOW PROCEDURE. Every woman and every teenager knows about it. Therefore, I am not "informing" them of anything. If they really want it, that is their affair and they can just go and find another doctor. But they cannot ask me to commit murder or help them find a willing murderer. Same goes for euthanasia.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

WOW, sounds like some of you are pretty backwards and it scares me. FRANKLY, discouraging a patient who may die without an abortion from not getting the medical care they need is completely negligent. If you say "Oh, the bady and you will be fine." and she dies, you will be in court within days following her death. Aside from the fear of litigation, its just wrong to deny medical treatment even if you dont agree with said treatment. For instance, chemo to someone who has essentially no chance of survival. If they want it, you must do it.

SIDE NOTE: the recently elected Republican Senator from Oklahoma is an OB/GYN. He advocates the death penalty for abortions, even in the case of rape which he see as "a convenient abortion" - that is appalling. If you have been raped and dont want the child, why should you be forced to live with that. People say, ohh just give it up for adoption. One problem with that is the healing for the rape victum only starts 9 months to a year after she is raped, rather than immediatly. ALSO- this Doc/Senator has performed two abortions himself in medical emergencies. FIGURE THAT ONE OUT.

You may consider me what you like. It is NOT wrong to deny the treatment if the treatment is immoral. YOU provide the treatment and YOU determine the apropriate treatment - NOT the patient. If they want the WRONG treatment, you DON'T give it to them. If they insist, tell them to see someone else

I don't advocate the death penalty for abortions, since I don't advocate it in any situation, so don't bring this senator into the story.

As for rape, it is such a tiny fraction, and besides, are we going to KILL another person because his/her existence is unwanted by another person? I know it's hard, I as a man will never know what rape is like and what rape + pregnancy is like, but you must have certain inviolable principles. Abortion is murder, nothing can justify murder (even rape), hence, rape cannot justify abortion.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

you are legally required to refer her to another physician if you refuse to preform the procedure



Because I live in America, I've heard of Jesus, you're not telling me anything new here...you're just harrassing me. Is it so hard to believe that I have given the matter a great deal of thought and made a different decision from you? You have a personal relationship with God? that's fantastic! But if its so damn personal why do you feel the need to make it so public?

That's as may be. I would rather go to jail than kill someone. The point is, it's NOT personal. And it doesn't have to be. I don't FORCE anything on anyone, I simply tell those who are willing to listen, and if they believe, all the better. What's so wrong with that?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I suppose when someone is dying, it is rather selfish and arrogant to tell them about YOUR views on religion. If they are looking for some comfort in their last moments, if they are asking you for comfort, then yes talking about your views could be warranted. However, to assume, without regard to their feelings or beliefs, that your patient needs your consul on issues of faith is asinine.

As for being told about another religion, I don't think people are offended by this. People are offended when they are told they are sinning because of the way they live (sex before marriage, being gay). People get offended when they are told they will go to hell if they don't find Jesus. People get offended when there is an air of condescesion from a preacher. Overall, It would be the prosecutory nature of christian dogma that is rather offensive. Ironically, this type of mindset would certainly upset the true Jesus.

You don't tell people about their specific sins. You tell them about the need for the human race, in general, for salvation. I don't know, have people "witnessed" to you by pointing out specific sins - this doesn't sound like a right or reasonable approach. And condescension is disgusting and very off-putting, that I can agree on.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

DOJDEE The classic arguement against abortion is that "the rape statistics are so low, its doesn't even matter." Ahh, considering rape is one of the most un-reported crimes in the US, how can you accurately point to a statistic on rape and abortion? The numbers are more likely to be much higher becuase women would rather not report a rape and just get an abortion. THINK OF THAT ONE.

ALSO, if you outlaw abortion under any circumstance you are basically punishing women who were raped and damning those who need one for medical reasons. If a woman with other medical issues develops pre-aclampsia during her pregnancy and it cannot be controlled then that woman has a high risk of dying. Aborting the child is the only option, viability is roughly 22 weeks and C-section is not an option prior to that. Your arguemtn is stuck in the dark ages of medicine.

This is not necessarily true. There are alternative, vigorous, treatments. I was in a Christian hospital in south asia where the only surgeon there refused to perform abortions. He mentioned one case of a woman with thalessemia (a kind of blood disease), who was told by other doctors that she needed an abortion. He refused, she insisted. Instead, he had her come every two weeks or so for a blood transfusion (to compensate for the week blood), and she carried to term and gave birth to a healthy baby girl.

Another case I actually saw was a woman with BAD pre-eclampsia/eclampsia (I'm not sure which). She was all bloated and looked really sick. They kept her on a respirator for several weeks. I know she gave birth, and slowly but surely, she recovered. It was great seeing her with her baby, smiling. I'm not saying it wasn't hard - it was hell for her - but at least both of them are alive today.

 

[Cat's Meow]

I don't understand how Cat's Meow hasn't been banned yet, considering others have been banned for being much less obvious baiters.

Cat's Meow is as Jewish as Jerry Falwell. He plays on stereotypes which many love to believe, so it's easy to get caught up on what this fool has to say.

The best analogy I can think of is if some non-Arab takes the name "Mohammed Al-Jafari" and proceeds to write posts like, "Allah! Medical school is so hard I feel like blowing it up!" Of course, all the clever folks will think to themselves, "Typical Arab." and not even think twice that maybe.. just maybe, someone with too much spare time on their hands is playing a joke.

Stop being so feeble-minded that you fall for this idiot's posts.

This thread is perfectly legitimate, troll. And do not put down posters who have expressed their viewpoints here.

Stop spewing hate and intolerance

And how am I the typical Jew? You obviously haven't read most of my opinions, hater.

So, just b/c you can't--or don't want to--discuss this important topic does not make me bad. Now go back to your cave.

 

[DOJDEE]

Frankly, some people are not getting my arguement. RELIGION ie, I am a Christian doctor so I am going to stress the Christian world view to my patients, even though I practice in an area that represents a number of religions. THAT IS FRANKLY WRONG, BOTH LEGALY AND ETHICALLY. Atleast according to all my med school professors it is wrong. Now, discussing meaning of life and a person's role and search for meaning is all well within the bounds of good practice. You overstep your role when you preach to patients, YOU WILL LOSE PATIENTS DOING THIS AND POSSIBLY OPEN YOURSELF UP TO A WHOLE WORLD OF TROUBLE.

Now, you personally may not believe in abortion. BUT preventing a patient from getting an abortion by not refering one is wrong. Frankly, its disturbing that people would do this and completely unethical. You can tell the patient that you think they should consider other options but refusing to refer one is also dangerous. SAY FOR INSTANCE: you have patient that has a heart condition which, if she carries this child to term, puts her life at serious risk and the chance of death is extremely high. Well, if you refuse you have essentially endangered this person's life and are legally open to malpractice suits in the event of her death. This is the truth, like it or not.

why are you not allowed to tell people that you are christain and how you live your life?? its ok for buddists and muslims, why not christians?

"THAT IS FRANKLY WRONG, BOTH LEGALY AND ETHICALLY. " how?? lets get rid of any shread of anything that hints at any sort of any kind of religion. that is the only way to be fair right? no more special religious clothing because quite frankly i feel in danger when i see it... or how about get rid of history books when they hint at god - wait better yet lets just change what they say to suit our purposes. we would need to form committees to decide on formal answers to questions like when did time start, what created time from nothing etc etc... perhaps like the founding person of this country decided on time and before the founding person there was (enter your random physics explanation that will be soon disproven here)... if you even mention a god as a response you should be shot on the spot for scaring people... we just cant have thoughts of people being allowed to think on their own, have imagination, freedoms, truth... this is all rubbish... who needs it...

ok - patient has a heart condition that cant carry a kid, but she is already pregnant and wants to abort.... well... tell her to wait for a certian period before coming to term and have a c-section before her heart gives her trouble, and then tie her tubes so she "wont be at risk of dieing" anymore. seems simple enough. once you make the decision to bring another life into this world, it is not yours to command life or death of it. its a priveledge... like driving... you are not allowed to break the laws, they are there to keep ppl from killing others essentially...

 

[W222]

I POSTED THIS BEFORE AND IT IS FOR BOTH DOJDEE AND mercaptovizadeh The classic arguement against abortion is that "the rape statistics are so low, its doesn't even matter." Ahh, considering rape is one of the most un-reported crimes in the US, how can you accurately point to a statistic on rape and abortion? The numbers are more likely to be much higher becuase women would rather not report a rape and just get an abortion. THINK OF THAT ONE.

FRANKLY mercaptovizadeh, if you tell a woman that abortion is not necessary which is your fabricated opinion based on your beliefs then you are responsible if she dies. The facts that she needs an abortion to save her lives CANNOT be argued with your beliefs that she doesn't need one and she should not "kill" her child. More than likely you will be brought into court and an expert physician will bring loads of evidence saying that she should have had the procudeu and then you will be held liable, in reality you are liable both morally and legally. You should have sent her somewhere else or to someone else if she needed it. Abortions are needed in medical circumstances to save a woman's life, you cant argue this. It is an opinion that says her life is not relavent and the child should be saved.

 

[DOJDEE]

That's as may be. I would rather go to jail than kill someone. The point is, it's NOT personal. And it doesn't have to be. I don't FORCE anything on anyone, I simply tell those who are willing to listen, and if they believe, all the better. What's so wrong with that?

there is nothing wrong with that, except to those who want to abolish everything to do with christianity for one reason or another...

how odd... why do some ppl accept all religions except christianity??

 

[W222]

DOJDEE You are so off its rediculous. There is no way that you can say to a patient, I am Christian and your beliefs are wrong. No -fing way. That is unethical, because as they will HOPEFULLY TEACH YOU, respect for patient autonomy is the most important facet of the doctor patient relationship. THEREFORE, if you preach to a patient you are wrong because you are not respecting their helds beliefs.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

In the vast majority, there ARE alternatives, regardless of what you are saying. I mentioned two above.

If, however, it is absolutely certain that the person will die, then so be it. I'm not cruel, but a pregnant woman carries another person, and you cannot kill that person for her convenience, emotional trauma, or even health.

She is well aware of abortion, and if she wants it, she can look up a clinic in the yellow pages, or call up the local hospital, etc. She doesn't need ME to send her to some licensed baby-killer, so that the blood of that child is in part on MY hands.

Just as you would not kill a 20 year old man to get his organs for someone with liver or kidney failure. That would be considered a major crime. You would not do it because the mandate of not killing takes precedence over the mandate of preserving life.

 

[DOJDEE]

I POSTED THIS BEFORE AND IT IS FOR BOTH DOJDEE AND mercaptovizadeh The classic arguement against abortion is that "the rape statistics are so low, its doesn't even matter." Ahh, considering rape is one of the most un-reported crimes in the US, how can you accurately point to a statistic on rape and abortion? The numbers are more likely to be much higher becuase women would rather not report a rape and just get an abortion. THINK OF THAT ONE.

FRANKLY mercaptovizadeh, if you tell a woman that abortion is not necessary which is your fabricated opinion based on your beliefs then you are responsible if she dies. The facts that she needs an abortion to save her lives CANNOT be argued with your beliefs that she doesn't need one and she should not "kill" her child. More than likely you will be brought into court and an expert physician will bring loads of evidence saying that she should have had the procudeu and then you will be held liable, in reality you are liable both morally and legally. You should have sent her somewhere else or to someone else if she needed it. Abortions are needed in medical circumstances to save a woman's life, you cant argue this. It is an opinion that says her life is not relavent and the child should be saved.

then go kill babies w222. babies blood will not be on my hands... that is b-s about the court stuff... everyone knows that a lawyer can hire any random greedy doc to say how everything you did from the time you were born to now has been all wrong and you owe everyone the world.

 

[W222]

Christians are not the problem, ITS CHRISTIANS WHO IMPOSE THEIR BELIEFS ON OTHERS, LIKE YOURSELF, THAT IS WRONG. The evangelical nature of Christianity makes it extreme and anything in extreme is wrong. I am not saying that extreme Islam is right, or any other extreme. You should respect others opinions and beliefs, so keep your to yourself.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

DOJDEE You are so off its rediculous. There is no way that you can say to a patient, I am Christian and your beliefs are wrong. No -fing way. That is unethical, because as they will HOPEFULLY TEACH YOU, respect for patient autonomy is the most important facet of the doctor patient relationship. THEREFORE, if you preach to a patient you are wrong because you are not respecting their helds beliefs.

It is NOT inethical. Besides, where do your ethics come from? Make everyone feel good about themselves? Because if that's the system, then murder (or something worse) might make someone feel better about himself/herself, and in fact this is what takes place oftentimes in abortions, which you seem to support.

 

[DOJDEE]

DOJDEE You are so off its rediculous. There is no way that you can say to a patient, I am Christian and your beliefs are wrong. No -fing way. That is unethical, because as they will HOPEFULLY TEACH YOU, respect for patient autonomy is the most important facet of the doctor patient relationship. THEREFORE, if you preach to a patient you are wrong because you are not respecting their helds beliefs.

you havent listened to anything ive written...

purpose for not killing babies - unethical - basic human moral understanding - this is not because "im christain"....

 

[La Miraflorina]

my 2 cents:

The key point is that we are physicians. Essentially, our job is to physically heal. With that said, there IS a proven connection between the body and the mind. For those patients who believe in a God or higher being, they will most likely desire spiritual guidance, depending on the degree and severity of their illnesses. If a patient initiates a conversation about God or spirituality, the physician is obliged to respond by either continuing the conversation if, for example, he shares the same views as his patient, or suggesting a more appropriate person.

But back to my original point, why on Earth would you think a doctor should INITIATE this conversation or impose his views on a dying patient? It's simply not our business. To me, it's as ridiculous as my insurance broker taking time from our discussion to share his personal religious views with me.

For those who are now about to disagree with me, I believe I know what you are thinking. Insurance brokers, in no way, share the same level of intimacy with their clients as doctors do with their patients; that because the nature of our job requires us to see some patients reach the end of their lives, our relationships with our patients are intrinsically more intimate and humanistic. I totally agree. But again, why on Earth does that mean that we should force OUR views on our patients? It's as if you SDNers, who are ranting about preaching your beliefs to a dying patient, are ABUSING that intimate doctor-patient relationship in order to satisfy some personal desire or whim. However "right" you think you are, it simply is not ethical to impose that on ANY patient at ANY time. And that goes for the issue of abortions as well...

 

[W222]

You two both scare me with your ignorance and the doctor who put the woman on the respirator GOT LUCKY. If she died in this country his head would roll and he would be a medical outcast. Hopefully you both will experience some growth during medical school, not likely if you hold your ear and refuse to believe in reality.

 

[W222]

By Stating Your Beliefs You Are Imposing On The Patient, Ie Preaching. This Is Un-ethical Because It Violates Patient Autonomy Which Is The Founding Principle Of The Doc-patient Relationship.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

For those who are now about to disagree with me, I believe I know what you are thinking. Insurance brokers, in no way, share the same level of intimacy with their clients as doctors do with their patients; that because the nature of our job requires us to see some patients reach the end of their lives, our relationships with our patients are intrinsically more intimate and humanistic. I totally agree. But again, why on Earth does that mean that we should force OUR views on our patients? It's as if you SDNers, who are ranting about preaching your beliefs to a dying patient, are ABUSING that intimate doctor-patient relationship in order to satisfy some personal desire or whim. However "right" you think you are, it simply is not ethical to impose that on ANY patient at ANY time. And that goes for the issue of abortions as well...

Who said anything about FORCING anybody to hear or DO anything? I said, I think it is OK to broach the topic, if they are not receptive, there is nothing more you can do. If they seem interested, then it should be OK to tell them more.

Forcing our views would mean we were stuffing it down their throats or refusing treatment BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OUR BELIEFS. That would be highly immoral. However, simply telling them, if they are interested, about our beliefs is NOT wrong, and neither is refusing to perform or refer a procedure that we consider disgusting and immoral.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

By Stating Your Beliefs You Are Imposing On The Patient, Ie Preaching. This Is Un-ethical Because It Violates Patient Autonomy Which Is The Founding Principle Of The Doc-patient Relationship.

OK, I see, so telling a patient about our faith VIOLATES patient autonomy, but for a psychiatrist to keep someone in a STRAIGHTJACKET and/or ELECTROSHOCK them, is entirely fine and keeping within autonomy, right? And I suppose it's also OK for the family or employers to throw an unwilling victim into a mental hospital AGAINST THEIR WILL, and that this somehow doesn't violate autonomy? Yet telling them about our faith kindly and meekly IS?

How twisted is that?

 

[La Miraflorina]

Who said anything about FORCING anybody to hear or DO anything? I said, I think it is OK to broach the topic, if they are not receptive, there is nothing more you can do. If they seem interested, then it should be OK to tell them more.

[/B]

Let me ask you this: What would be your personal motivation or reason for wanting to "broach the topic" with a patient?

 

[W222]

Broaching the topic of Christianity to a patient without a founding basis is wrong. Say, you have a new patient, : "Hey, Mrs Jones have you found Jesus?" That is so wrong. You are trying to recruite and bring people into your faith through your practice. That is against what medicine in this country is founded on, respect for patients. You could have your license revoked for such behavior if its brought to the attention of the medical board, THIS IS THE TRUTH - BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Let me ask you this: What would be your personal motivation or reason for wanting to "broach the topic" with a patient?

If you believe that our decisions vis a vis faith, in this life, are of eternal import, and you know that it is your duty to share your knowledge with others (since it is so important), why not broach the topic (in the appropriate context), and if they seem interested, tell them more? If they shun you, don't mention it unless they are receptive/interested at some later time.

And of course, I would NEVER let a person's beliefs or refusal to hear mine out, influence my medical treatment in any way. That most certainly would be wrong.

 

[W222]

Using Your Medical Practice As A Pulpit Is Wrong. You Are Not There To Convert People, You Are There To Heal Them. Not Heal Their Souls As You See Fit.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Broaching the topic of Christianity to a patient without a founding basis is wrong. Say, you have a new patient, : "Hey, Mrs Jones have you found Jesus?" That is so wrong. You are trying to recruite and bring people into your faith through your practice. That is against what medicine in this country is founded on, respect for patients. You could have your license revoked for such behavior if its brought to the attention of the medical board, THIS IS THE TRUTH - BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

I certainly wouldn't do it that way - that would be stupid and ineffective. However, if Mrs. Jones is about to have a brain tumor removed (by me) and if she starts panting and says "I'm so scared of dying" or something to that effect, I would reassure her of the relative safety of the procedure and then would ask her if she would like to know more about my faith and how I would deal with a situation like this. If she says "No," then that's the end of the discussion. If she says "Yes," then I explain to her my beliefs and try to comfort her in that context.

Please don't trivialize this. We are NOT fools or tactless idiots - but we do have strong beliefs and aren't afraid or ashamed to tell others about them.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Using Your Medical Practice As A Pulpit Is Wrong. You Are Not There To Convert People, You Are There To Heal Them. Not Heal Their Souls As You See Fit.

Yes, I will "heal" them by injecting salt into their womb, thus killing another human being. Or better yet, why not tear the body to bits and crush the skull, and remove "the blob" piece by piece. Very "healing" of me.

How any human being with a conscience can do something like this, is beyond me. Same goes for those idiots who did all those nosejobs on Michael Jackson.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

RELIGION HAS NO PLACE IN A PHYSICIAN'S MEDICAL PRACTICE. Frankly it is completely un-ethical to bring up religion with a patient and discuss your own beliefs, even if you share similar beliefs. THAT BEING SAID, it is okay to talk about a person's spiritual beliefs and offer someone they can talk to, ie a priest giving last rights ect. Religion = organized group of people who share the same beliefs and practice in a community. SPIRITUAL BELIEFS = personal feelings about something deeper than themselves and about their personal faith. So if you are Christian and preach to your patients, you are essentially disrespecting any of their personal beliefs and ALSO you open yourself up to lawsuit. If you ask a person about their beliefs and the role it has in their life then that is respecting their beliefs and encouraging their feelings. Again, preaching has no place in medicine and religion has no place in medicine.

i totally disagree. admission reports ask why religion you are so that someone is available to talk to you in a spiritual sense. Therefore I see nothing wrong with a physician discussing the patient's beliefs. It makes the patient feel more conmfortable and more connected with the doctor.

 

[ElKapitan]

I suppose if you had your own practice you could, as it has already been mentioned on this thread, advertise that you are a christian (muslim, jewish, ect..) doctor. I am pretty sure this would get you a lot of business in the bible belt. However, if you were in a large hospital the patient population will run the whole gamut. It is not appropraite to talk about religion unless it has been mentioned by the patient.

Abortion.. In an ideal world, I see no reason for abortions to occur. Mothers should want to have the children they carry. There shouldn't be rape, there shouldn't be medical complications, and there shouldn't be unplanned pregnancy. However, we live in a world that is much less than ideal.

Mothers can live in impoverished areas, they can be 15 years old and they can be addicted to drugs. None of these qualities are those of a good mother. I feel that abortion is wrong, but in some cases I can't find a reason for the baby to be born.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

i agree with that doc and pharmdoc... it is common for patients to go to other docs for second opinions on things, so why not with these guys?? give me a break... i will not refer anyone to an abortion clinic EVER. the ONLY way that i would ever condone such a thing is if the baby is ALREADY dead and is threatening the life of the mother. that is it. dont you remember??? - "first do no harm"... patients rights??? bull****. you would at the same time have to convince me that it is the patient's right to kill themselves... to me, this is the same thing... religion or not, you are killing something - you are FIRST causing harm instead of first causing NO harm...

i am, sooo happy to see so many caring ethical people in the medical field...and people who truly stand behind their beliefs even if it is not the popular view.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I suppose when someone is dying, it is rather selfish and arrogant to tell them about YOUR views on religion. If they are looking for some comfort in their last moments, if they are asking you for comfort, then yes talking about your views could be warranted. However, to assume, without regard to their feelings or beliefs, that your patient needs your consul on issues of faith is asinine.

As for being told about another religion, I don't think people are offended by this. People are offended when they are told they are sinning because of the way they live (sex before marriage, being gay). People get offended when they are told they will go to hell if they don't find Jesus. People get offended when there is an air of condescesion from a preacher. Overall, It would be the prosecutory nature of christian dogma that is rather offensive. Ironically, this type of mindset would certainly upset the true Jesus.

and which is worse...to offend someone momentarily or to allow them to spend eternity in hell?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I certainly wouldn't do it that way - that would be stupid and ineffective. However, if Mrs. Jones is about to have a brain tumor removed (by me) and if she starts panting and says "I'm so scared of dying" or something to that effect, I would reassure her of the relative safety of the procedure and then would ask her if she would like to know more about my faith and how I would deal with a situation like this. If she says "No," then that's the end of the discussion. If she says "Yes," then I explain to her my beliefs and try to comfort her in that context.

Please don't trivialize this. We are NOT fools or tactless idiots - but we do have strong beliefs and aren't afraid or ashamed to tell others about them.

I totally agree with you.

 

[Pembleton]

If I'm fortunate enough to become a physician, then I will not be introducing my faith willy-nilly to my patients. I don't do that now, talk to random acquaintances about Christ.

However, while treating someone, I will resort to prayer to complement my medical knowledge. Silent prayer, of course.

And if someone asks to be prayed for, then I will comply also.

 

[velo]

Who said anything about FORCING anybody to hear or DO anything? I said, I think it is OK to broach the topic, if they are not receptive, there is nothing more you can do. If they seem interested, then it should be OK to tell them more.

Forcing our views would mean we were stuffing it down their throats or refusing treatment BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OUR BELIEFS. That would be highly immoral. However, simply telling them, if they are interested, about our beliefs is NOT wrong, and neither is refusing to perform or refer a procedure that we consider disgusting and immoral.

you're not in school yet right? when you get to school next year ask whoever is teaching you ethics about unsolicited proselytizing to your patients. Its not only unethical, its just plain unprofessional.

 

[velo]

If I'm fortunate enough to become a physician, then I will not be introducing my faith willy-nilly to my patients. I don't do that now, talk to random acquaintances about Christ.

However, while treating someone, I will resort to prayer to complement my medical knowledge. Silent prayer, of course.

And if someone asks to be prayed for, then I will comply also.

perfect way to incorporate your faith into your practice...I have no problem with this

religious MDs-to-be: pay attention to this poster

 

[ElKapitan]

and which is worse...to offend someone momentarily or to allow them to spend eternity in hell?

You have proven my point exactly. This is what is called condescion; you are saying if I don't believe in your beliefs, I go to hell. Can you see how arrogant you are? In my religous beliefs, "the first will come last and the last will come first." Walk softly when you committ others to hell, because how do you know you are not going to be there?

 

[velo]

and which is worse...to offend someone momentarily or to allow them to spend eternity in hell?

Patient: "Excuse me, may I speak to a lawyer, my doctor told me I was going to hell"

Lawyer: "...."

Patient: "Are you there?"

Lawyer: *weeps softly*

Patient: "Are you crying?"

Lawyer: "I'm sorry...its just so beautiful...yacht club here i come!"

 

[Psycho Doctor]

You have proven my point exactly. This is what is called condescion; you are saying if I don't believe in your beliefs, I go to hell. Can you see how arrogant you are? In my religous beliefs, "the first will come last and the last will come first." Walk softly when you committ others to hell, because how do you know you are not going to be there?

i don't but why take a chance? Only God truly judges but he also commands us to spread the gospel message.

Now let me ask you, if you knew a person had a disease but he didn't believe he did and you knew if he didn't get treatment, he would die, would you try to convince him your views? Is that being arrogant.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Patient: "Excuse me, may I speak to a lawyer, my doctor told me I was going to hell"

Lawyer: "...."

Patient: "Are you there?"

Lawyer: *weeps softly*

Patient: "Are you crying?"

Lawyer: "I'm sorry...its just so beautiful...yacht club here i come!"

go ahead laugh now

and no one said anyone is telling a patient they are going to hell. I was merely saying they could tell them their perspective at some point....to turn to Jesus. it is the kindest thing they can do...no one is saying shove it down their throat if they resist.

 

[velo]

i don't but why take a chance? Only God truly judges but he also commands us to spread the gospel message.

Now let me ask you, if you knew a person had a disease but he didn't believe he did and you knew if he didn't get treatment, he would die, would you try to convince him your views? Is that being arrogant.

I'm not going to say your logic is ******ed...but it definitely rides on the short bus. You don't give a patient a treatment based on an article of faith, you give a treatment based on strong scientific and clinical data. Its not even comparing apples and oranges here...its apples and...I don't even know, but something inorganic....


And come on, "also commands us to spread the message" WE LIVE IN AMERICA! WE GOT THE DAMN MESSAGE, YOU CAN STOP SPREADING NOW! There's a fundemental difference between spreading your message to people who have never heard it, and spreading it to people who have heard it, listened to it, understood it, and not bought it. LEAVE US ALONE!!!!

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

you're not in school yet right? when you get to school next year ask whoever is teaching you ethics about unsolicited proselytizing to your patients. Its not only unethical, its just plain unprofessional.

Honestly, though. I care neither for so-called "ethics" or for professionalism. My ethics come from God, and if the medical school wants to teach me additional points that fit within that framework (e.g. confidentiality), that's great. But I certainly won't let them tell me that it is unethical to mention Christ, but that it isn't to euthanize or abort or lobotomize a person. Give me a break!