Repeating 1st year, will it be possible to match neurology or PM&R

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The not being competitive comment above is not completely accurate when you consider the number of students applying into those spots and how many get accepted. It is true that those fields do require lower stats than others and you can still be accepted with subpar stats. Failing a year is a red flag, as is failing COMLEX or USMLE. It will likely be referenced on your interviews. However, if you know you want to go into neuro or PM&R, then do everything in your control to join clubs geared to that, to write case reports or submit papers to those conferences. PM&R and neuro like to see that you are serious about their fields and that goes a long way. LoRs are also very important for those fields as they get referenced to on interviews moreso than in other specialties. If you know you want PM&R or neuro, go for it full throttle. Don't let having to retake the first year hinder your chances of moving forwards.
 
BugzBunnyDoc said:
The not being competitive comment above is not completely accurate when you consider the number of students applying into those spots and how many get accepted. It is true that those fields do require lower stats than others and you can still be accepted with subpar stats. Failing a year is a red flag, as is failing COMLEX or USMLE. It will likely be referenced on your interviews. However, if you know you want to go into neuro or PM&R, then do everything in your control to join clubs geared to that, to write case reports or submit papers to those conferences. PM&R and neuro like to see that you are serious about their fields and that goes a long way. LoRs are also very important for those fields as they get referenced to on interviews moreso than in other specialties. If you know you want PM&R or neuro, go for it full throttle. Don't let having to retake the first year hinder your chances of moving forwards.
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OP asked if it was “possible” and the simple answer was yes, because those fields are not that hard to match.


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Won't stop you from matching somewhere.
 
risus_sardonicus said:
OP asked if it was “possible” and the simple answer was yes, because those fields are not that hard to match.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure PM&R isn't an uncompetitive field these days. I knew a good number of folks who failed to match into it. I suspect it'll grow more competitive as time goes on due to it having a rather chill lifestyle and ample opportunities for niche focuses.

Neurology probably will never become competitive. But a failure might hurt your app. Neuro tends to attract smart and nerdy folks.

People also don't generally recognize what kind of cluster **** residency applying is, especially as a DO who often will need to beg to get time off to interview or may at most only find enough time for 10 interviews. To interview in a field that may be above your head as opposed to a more conservative application to FM might lead you to end up soaping into a TRI or FM in an area of the country you have 0 interest in.

I soaped and truthfully I felt like I did very well in the soap. Other folks I know ended up in rural towns with 0 connections and 0 interest in the area and worse moderately malignant folks.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
I'm not entirely sure PM&R isn't an uncompetitive field these days. I knew a good number of folks who failed to match into it. I suspect it'll grow more competitive as time goes on due to it having a rather chill lifestyle and ample opportunities for niche focuses.

Neurology probably will never become competitive. But a failure might hurt your app. Neuro tends to attract smart and nerdy folks.

People also don't generally recognize what kind of cluster **** residency applying is, especially as a DO who often will need to beg to get time off to interview or may at most only find enough time for 10 interviews. To interview in a field that may be above your head as opposed to a more conservative application to FM might lead you to end up soaping into a TRI or FM in an area of the country you have 0 interest in.

I soaped and truthfully I felt like I did very well in the soap. Other folks I know ended up in rural towns with 0 connections and 0 interest in the area and worse moderately malignant folks.
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Agreed. Know people with 220s step 1 and no red flags that failed to match into PMR. People are acting like there aren't thousands and thousands of new applicants being tossed into the match every single year. If you have even 1 red flag, applying to a backup residency is a must
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Agreed. Know people with 220s step 1 and no red flags that failed to match into PMR. People are acting like there aren't thousands and thousands of new applicants being tossed into the match every single year. If you have even 1 red flag, applying to a backup residency is a must
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I'll say it again. As a DO you're already going into the match as gimped goods. Throw in a red flag and honestly you're going to struggle. Yes, there are people will will match and do well. But some of that is honestly exception.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
I'll say it again. As a DO you're already going into the match as gimped goods. Throw in a red flag and honestly you're going to struggle. Yes, there are people will will match and do well. But some of that is honestly exception.
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Add the fact that we lost the AOA spots and it is becoming an uphill battle. Going to DO school is starting to become the new Caribbean
 
Chibucks15 said:
The data points out that it was as good a year as it has been in the past for DOs, if not better overall percentage wise. This is a tired argument
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Sure, let's see the data then. Please include match into specialties and not just overall. If you shift an entire profession into primary care, i won't call that "as good of a year"

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AlbinoHawk DO said:
Sure, let's see the data then. Please include match into specialties and not just overall. If you shift an entire profession into primary care, i won't call that "as good of a year"

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The data is readily available on many other threads, its all SDN ever talks about. The search function is available to you as well as me.

I'm interested to see why is more primary care not "as good of a year"? More and more people want lifestyle specialties and not the prestige-centered BS you see spouted all over this place. Also were physicians same as MDs, DO's aren't "an entire profession". Unless you interview every person there is no way to truly know what the priorities and preferences are. We have people at the top of my class wanting rural FM. Hell a majority of my school wants to do primary care. The argument that a match isn't good unless it has surgical/derm/optho matches on the coast is such a played out thing on here. Match lists are the most overblown 'indicator' of success that only SDN uses
 
Chibucks15 said:
The data is readily available on many other threads, its all SDN ever talks about. The search function is available to you as well as me.

I'm interested to see why is more primary care not "as good of a year"? More and more people want lifestyle specialties and not the prestige-centered BS you see spouted all over this place. Also were physicians same as MDs, DO's aren't "an entire profession". Unless you interview every person there is no way to truly know what the priorities and preferences are. We have people at the top of my class wanting rural FM. Hell a majority of my school wants to do primary care. The argument that a match isn't good unless it has surgical/derm/optho matches on the coast is such a played out thing on here. Match lists are the most overblown 'indicator' of success that only SDN uses
Click to expand...
Sure, so you'll make a claim and absolve yourself from backing up your claim by citing "internets"

Your next argument is that everyone magically fell in love with primary care the moment that the AOA was lost. I find myself skeptical of that argument.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Sure, so you'll make a claim and absolve yourself from backing up your claim by citing "internets"

Your next argument is that everyone magically fell in love with primary care the moment that the AOA was lost. I find myself skeptical of that argument.
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What the hell does that even mean? I said nothing of the sort. Nobody denies there are uphill battles as DOs at certain places, especially in certain fields. That's life. Lower tier MDs have that struggle too and its literally the same in every other graduate field. Finance? Better have gone to a top school. Law? If you weren't top 20 forget about top firms. I-Banking? The same. School choice matters and it does in medicine too. Why are people so naive to discount this fact? If you weren't aware of this at the beginning that says more about you than the system.

But for the majority of people primary care is what they actually want to do (there's a reason why there are more primary care docs than specialists). Surprisingly enough to you, people ACTUALLY have wanted primary care from the get go. Many people in my class are in this boat, and many came aboard the PC train when actually experiencing it (not because the AOA disappeared, which doesn't make sense in your argument either....these spots are still available).

I'm getting stuff done so didn't want to rehash match stats that are readily apparent on many other threads sorry to not spoon feed you what is easily researched. You're also asking for impossible to obtain data without talking to literally every applicant about their preferences and top choices (you conveniently ignore this in my previous post). Not citing "internets" whatever that means.

But let me try to understand your side. What do you deem worthy of a 'good year for DOs?' Just so I'm fully aware of what passes your rigorous test. If I'm so obviously wrong, why don't you back up your argument? Do you have any statistics that DOs are the new Caribbean?
 
Fat_Albert said:
if you failed first year you shouldn't even be thinking about the match rn tbh
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I know you meant this nicer than it sounds.
I think it would be really important for OP to have some reassurance and then move forward, otherwise being hung up on this might stop him from that.
Yes, you can match PMR or Neurology; it’s not out of the question. The main thing to do now is study hard and ensure you pass this year. Learn as much as you can, because at the end of the day it’s not you who will benefit, but your patients who will have an amazing doctor who learned all they could to treat their patients as best they could.
Now, go focus on studies.
 
The argument is simple. DOs had access to more specialties before. Those spots weren't going unfilled. If we have a transition from AOA to ACGME and there are less matches in those specialties, it is not because DOs woke up and decided they didn't want specialties and preferred primary care. It was because they didn't have the opportunity to match anymore. Overall, it doesn't matter that you match the same if its all undesirable locations and undesirable specialties. Therefore, the merger has served to hinder DOs



Chibucks15 said:
What the hell does that even mean? I said nothing of the sort. Nobody denies there are uphill battles as DOs at certain places, especially in certain fields. That's life. Lower tier MDs have that struggle too and its literally the same in every other graduate field. Finance? Better have gone to a top school. Law? If you weren't top 20 forget about top firms. I-Banking? The same. School choice matters and it does in medicine too. Why are people so naive to discount this fact? If you weren't aware of this at the beginning that says more about you than the system.

But for the majority of people primary care is what they actually want to do (there's a reason why there are more primary care docs than specialists). Surprisingly enough to you, people ACTUALLY have wanted primary care from the get go. Many people in my class are in this boat, and many came aboard the PC train when actually experiencing it (not because the AOA disappeared, which doesn't make sense in your argument either....these spots are still available).

I'm getting stuff done so didn't want to rehash match stats that are readily apparent on many other threads sorry to not spoon feed you what is easily researched. You're also asking for impossible to obtain data without talking to literally every applicant about their preferences and top choices (you conveniently ignore this in my previous post). Not citing "internets" whatever that means.

But let me try to understand your side. What do you deem worthy of a 'good year for DOs?' Just so I'm fully aware of what passes your rigorous test. If I'm so obviously wrong, why don't you back up your argument? Do you have any statistics that DOs are the new Caribbean?
Click to expand...
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
The argument is simple. DOs had access to more specialties before. Those spots weren't going unfilled. If we have a transition from AOA to ACGME and there are less matches in those specialties, it is not because DOs woke up and decided they didn't want specialties and preferred primary care. It was because they didn't have the opportunity to match anymore. Overall, it doesn't matter that you match the same if its all undesirable locations and undesirable specialties. Therefore, the merger has served to hinder DOs

You talk about "getting stuff done," but here you are debating this point with me without actually having to backup your claims because "it's on the internet. google it."
Click to expand...
Again you ignore the fact that you do not know what is 'desirable' to different people. on SDN anything outside a top 10 metro especially NYC, LA, or the surrounding areas is 'undesirable'. Also you are asking for impossible data unless you get to see everyones rank list. I could easily post the overall match percentage but obviously that isn't what you're looking for. I don't know what data you even want me to get. You ignore these parts repeatedly. I did not deny these points you made, in fact I addressed them at the beginning of the last post. Selective arguments are the SDN way. But my posts weren't really geared towards you. More towards the people scrolling through who take SDN as gospel. It bit me in the ass and I'm trying to avoid pre-meds and M0s from buying in.

Again, do you have any statistics to support your claims? Because yours is just the SDN argument that hasn't really panned out based on overall match percentages. But to each their own. Have a good one
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
The argument is simple. DOs had access to more specialties before. Those spots weren't going unfilled. If we have a transition from AOA to ACGME and there are less matches in those specialties, it is not because DOs woke up and decided they didn't want specialties and preferred primary care. It was because they didn't have the opportunity to match anymore. Overall, it doesn't matter that you match the same if its all undesirable locations and undesirable specialties. Therefore, the merger has served to hinder DOs
Click to expand...

I was grateful that there was only 1 match this year, and I think most of my classmates felt the same way. It was incredibly helpful not to be forced into compromising our rank list due to some choices being AOA and others ACGME. Are there some students that this merger hurt? Almost definitely yes. Specifically those small amount of students going into the hyper competitive specialties where some former AOA programs disappeared and did not get accreditation. That is a very small amount of students, and I think the jury is still out on how they are impacted. Frankly, that’s not too much of a concern to me. Also, there were probably some weaker students who had trouble finding a spot and would previously get placed in an AOA program. Frankly, we don’t know that number yet. I expect it to be small given the match rate was 91%.
 
Chibucks15 said:
The data is readily available on many other threads, its all SDN ever talks about. The search function is available to you as well as me.

I'm interested to see why is more primary care not "as good of a year"? More and more people want lifestyle specialties and not the prestige-centered BS you see spouted all over this place. Also were physicians same as MDs, DO's aren't "an entire profession". Unless you interview every person there is no way to truly know what the priorities and preferences are. We have people at the top of my class wanting rural FM. Hell a majority of my school wants to do primary care. The argument that a match isn't good unless it has surgical/derm/optho matches on the coast is such a played out thing on here. Match lists are the most overblown 'indicator' of success that only SDN uses
Click to expand...
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Sure, so you'll make a claim and absolve yourself from backing up your claim by citing "internets"

Your next argument is that everyone magically fell in love with primary care the moment that the AOA was lost. I find myself skeptical of that argument.
Click to expand...

Oh, hey. I was actually curious about this and threw a table together when the 2020 results came out. These are matches:
1588243624877.png


The positions are combined across all types of that specialty. I.e categorical, advanced and physician positions are all lumped together. Data is for DO seniors pulled from Table 2. Matches by Specialty and Applicant type. AOA list does not specify DO seniors.

2019 AOA data from here: 2019 Summary by Program Type

Primary care in this case includes: FM, IM, OBGYN and Peds.
For reference 2019 had 5535 ACGME + 886 AOA = 6421. 2020 had 6363 ACGME matches.

Obviously this doesn't account for quality of match and I don't believe AOA posts scramble stats.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
Sure, so you'll make a claim and absolve yourself from backing up your claim by citing "internets"

Your next argument is that everyone magically fell in love with primary care the moment that the AOA was lost. I find myself skeptical of that argument.
Click to expand...

... What's wrong with primary care in the first place?
 
I think primary care is great, however there are D.O. schools who's COA is upwards of 80k/year. With interest that's almost 400k in student loans. PC pays 180-220k. And I'm aware of loan repayment programs, but still.

If you're like me and have no intention of children or marriage then you can knock down that debt in 5-7 years. However most people are gonna be married, have kids and want to live in big fancy houses and drive nice cars so that might not be feasible for them.

When I'm done I'm looking at 275k in loans (interest not included), which I plan to pay off in 5 years. I've already crunched the numbers.

As a PCP my take home pay will be around 11k/month. Half of that will go towards loans and I'll live on the other half, that's still 5500/month which is more than a what the average American makes.
 
iqe2010 said:
I think primary care is great, however there are D.O. schools who's COA is upwards of 80k/year. With interest that's almost 400k in student loans. PC pays 180-220k. And I'm aware of loan repayment programs, but still.

If you're like me and have no intention of children or marriage then you can knock down that debt in 5-7 years. However most people are gonna be married, have kids and want to live in big fancy houses and drive nice cars so that might not be feasible for them.

When I'm done I'm looking at 275k in loans (interest not included), which I plan to pay off in 5 years. I've already crunched the numbers.

As a PCP my take home pay will be around 11k/month. Half of that will go towards loans and I'll live on the other half, that's still 5500/month which is more than a what the average American makes.
Click to expand...
My future wife will help me pay me the loan, my future kids will be taking out loans for college, and if they want nice things they can go suck up to their grandparents.
 
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