1st year D.O. trying to match competitively in IM

[Dorsey DO]

Hello,

I began my 1st year at a D.O. school. I'm researching early and want to match competitively in IM. I would be disappointed if I am hindered by the D.O. stigma and match into a local, community health setting. Nothing wrong there but I have bigger aspirations. The goal is to match into a prestige, name-recognized program, and/or academic center. I would say being D.O. realistic an Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, UCSD-type program would suffice. My question is from the main categories to be D.O. competitive, which is most important/least important and where should I spend most of my time.

Step Scores = Planning to take Step 1+2. Based on my standardized testing experience, I strongly believe I will achieve a solid 240-ish on Step2, nothing else or nothing more.

Leadership= I would like to be an elected position for the Internal Medicine club at school, but I heard it's a popularity contest, and I'm not that type of person to play that political game. Right now, I plan to just attend regular meetings/events.

Research= I've never formally done research, plus all my passion for learning would come from passing blocks/board exams. So really not interested here unless it's very important for those prestige programs.

Volunteering= My school has a 35-hour and 70-hour volunteer distinction. But each volunteer event is like only 2 hours, so achieving the 35 hour-mark seems more realistic considering everything else I have to do.


Personally, I'd like to focus on quantifiable metrics, like Step 2 results. Plus, it's a universal benchmark so I can be compared to MDs applying to the same programs. The leadership and volunteering aspects I don't mind doing, but they are school-specific, so seem like less weightage than a uniform benchmark like Step. Those are my 2-cents, but overall I'd appreciate further insight and direction on what I should focus on.

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[DO2015CA]

Research is important for prestigious IM and volunteering does mean S***

 

[Goro]

I suggest that as of right now you concentrate on figuring out how best to be a good medical student.

 

[Dorsey DO]

Initially, I was going to focus more on maxing out quantifiable metrics, but it seems like focusing and having an impact on all 4 is the way to go. I ask because it's the first semester, and they are killing me. It's hard to find information like this right now.

 

[Sidus1011]

Initially, I was going to focus more on maxing out quantifiable metrics, but it seems like focusing and having an impact on all 4 is the way to go. I ask because it's the first semester, and they are killing me. It's hard to find information like this right now.

Get your study habits down. You will not match academic IM if you fail a class. Research is the most important extracurricular - volunteering and leadership can add to a narrative, but it is not going to play a factor in how a student stands on their rank list. Volunteering and leadership are primarily interview question fodder.

It's unfortunate you don't enjoy research, but you have to play the game. I'm guessing you want to do some sort of fellowship, otherwise there is no purpose to going to these higher tier programs. The rat race doesn't end when matching for those either. Step 1 and Step 2 are a requirement as well - you shouldn't even question taking those if you want an academic program to take you seriously.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

IM is a very heavy mentor driven and resident dynamic driven field.
Not only should you study hard so that you can perform well in medical school, clerkships, residency, etc. You need to very early on make good and solid connections with people. Internal medicine people respect other internists. If they see that you have a letter from a program director at a large hospital with a large cohort of internal medicine residents that to them tells you that you're not a smuck.

The bottom line is a lot of IM programs don't want DO residents because the foundational clerkships in IM for DOs often are trash. A lot of people work one on one with an attending or worse do outpatient exclusively. This does not bode well when you go to a program and your first rotation is say advanced cardiology or transplant medicine and the specialist is going to complain that you present like crap, know nothing about how hospital work flow even remotely works, and are making your senior resident have to do the work of two even by the 4th week.

DOs enter the IM match with three chips on their shoulders. 1) They don't have mentors who carry weight. 2) They don't take Step. 3) they are presumed to have poor team based/rounds based internal medicine training from their 3rd year rotations.

To do well in the match you have to break all 3. Go audition at a few programs where you spend a lot of time literally doing scut work for the residents, becoming friends with them etc. A program that has residents saying they like you = your ranked in the upper half of the list.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Hello,

I began my 1st year at a D.O. school. I'm researching early and want to match competitively in IM. I would be disappointed if I am hindered by the D.O. stigma and match into a local, community health setting. Nothing wrong there but I have bigger aspirations. The goal is to match into a prestige, name-recognized program, and/or academic center. I would say being D.O. realistic an Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, UCSD-type program would suffice. My question is from the main categories to be D.O. competitive, which is most important/least important and where should I spend most of my time.

Step Scores = Planning to take Step 1+2. Based on my standardized testing experience, I strongly believe I will achieve a solid 240-ish on Step2, nothing else or nothing more.

Leadership= I would like to be an elected position for the Internal Medicine club at school, but I heard it's a popularity contest, and I'm not that type of person to play that political game. Right now, I plan to just attend regular meetings/events.

Research= I've never formally done research, plus all my passion for learning would come from passing blocks/board exams. So really not interested here unless it's very important for those prestige programs.

Volunteering= My school has a 35-hour and 70-hour volunteer distinction. But each volunteer event is like only 2 hours, so achieving the 35 hour-mark seems more realistic considering everything else I have to do.


Personally, I'd like to focus on quantifiable metrics, like Step 2 results. Plus, it's a universal benchmark so I can be compared to MDs applying to the same programs. The leadership and volunteering aspects I don't mind doing, but they are school-specific, so seem like less weightage than a uniform benchmark like Step. Those are my 2-cents, but overall I'd appreciate further insight and direction on what I should focus on.

See the thread from @ m2k below. Many good programs take DO's and some won't. Avoid the ones who don't. Many PDs continue to believe it is not their job to train DO's, so don't apply. Sorry, but DO bias continues to exist at many places. It also depends on which school you attend as most have regional reputations and match lists. Maybe look at the resident rosters at the programs you are interested in. There are DOs in.programs like JHU. Obviously, if so called prestige/competitive programs are your target, you will need a competitive app and maybe more. Remember, most applicants at these programs are Rock Stars, and MD's not impossible, but some programs won't look at you, especially now with new MD and DO schools graduating new classes.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Well you’re kinda on your way to not meeting your goal.

-You will need research. Period.

-Your board score assumptions are meaningless. I remind you that you are in a new pool of test takers now. And 240s isn’t going to cut it without a significant hook somewhere else (read: research and strong LORs).

-volunteering and leadership honestly don’t mean squat. Leadership that catches eyes isn’t being president of some interest group and is usually related to previous work experience or other unique life experiences that aren’t related to medicine.

-be in the top quartile of your class.

-you will need strong academic LORs.

The DOs I know in the types of IM programs you are looking for had all of the above. The one person who didn’t have elite board scores had 60 publications, letters from elite IM departments, oh, and a PhD. You don’t need that, but just something to think about with regards to who you are competing against.

Ultimately the best source of info will be those who previously did what you are seeking to do.
@Deecee2DO

 

[Deecee2DO]

Hello,

I began my 1st year at a D.O. school. I'm researching early and want to match competitively in IM. I would be disappointed if I am hindered by the D.O. stigma and match into a local, community health setting. Nothing wrong there but I have bigger aspirations. The goal is to match into a prestige, name-recognized program, and/or academic center. I would say being D.O. realistic an Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, UCSD-type program would suffice. My question is from the main categories to be D.O. competitive, which is most important/least important and where should I spend most of my time.

Step Scores = Planning to take Step 1+2. Based on my standardized testing experience, I strongly believe I will achieve a solid 240-ish on Step2, nothing else or nothing more.

Leadership= I would like to be an elected position for the Internal Medicine club at school, but I heard it's a popularity contest, and I'm not that type of person to play that political game. Right now, I plan to just attend regular meetings/events.

Research= I've never formally done research, plus all my passion for learning would come from passing blocks/board exams. So really not interested here unless it's very important for those prestige programs.

Volunteering= My school has a 35-hour and 70-hour volunteer distinction. But each volunteer event is like only 2 hours, so achieving the 35 hour-mark seems more realistic considering everything else I have to do.


Personally, I'd like to focus on quantifiable metrics, like Step 2 results. Plus, it's a universal benchmark so I can be compared to MDs applying to the same programs. The leadership and volunteering aspects I don't mind doing, but they are school-specific, so seem like less weightage than a uniform benchmark like Step. Those are my 2-cents, but overall I'd appreciate further insight and direction on what I should focus on.

PM me. Im a DO and had residency interviews at Vanderbilt, Brown, Dartmouth, Georgetown, Yale, Cleveland Clinic etc for IM. Tbh a lot of people are way smarter than me in this field, i just worked exceptionally hard in med school and grinded myself to the bone to match where I did. I felt it was worth it in the end and can be if youd like your choice for fellowship (specialties like GI hemeonc and cards can be more challenging for DOs and being at an academic program with resources can help a lot). Everyone on this thread has given you some very sound advice. Research is exceptionally important for academic IM, academic letters also help and board scores are extremely important. You really have to take Step and Comlex as others have said. You can get some lower tier academic interviews with just a little research and some avg to slightly above avg Step scores which a good portion of DOs do these days! But if you want interviews at the big guns (ie places where no DOs have matched before, have only matched a select few in the history of the program or only match 1 DO per yr on the entire roster amongst all USMDs) this leaves little room for error and youll need a practically flawless application-now that Step 2 is king this means a ~260+ Step 2, research, academic letters, honoring essentially all your rotations in M3 or coming close to it, being top ~10-20% of your class. It can be done though and DOs continue to break glass ceilings every yr in IM (2023 we had DOs match at Vanderbilt and Duke for the first time in history). I would say Duke is top 5ish and Vanderbilt top 10ish which is jaw dropping. Anyways, I can help anyway i can

 

[Kardio]

Step Scores = Planning to take Step 1+2. Based on my standardized testing experience, I strongly believe I will achieve a solid 240-ish on Step2, nothing else or nothing more.

It’s fine to consider where your psychometric baseline is but I wouldn’t just say “My MCAT was average for admitted students so therefore my Step 2 will be average.”

Research= I've never formally done research, plus all my passion for learning would come from passing blocks/board exams. So really not interested here unless it's very important for those prestige programs.

As others have said, it is very important for those programs.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

PM me. Im a DO and had residency interviews at Vanderbilt, Brown, Dartmouth, Georgetown, Yale, Cleveland Clinic etc for IM. Tbh a lot of people are way smarter than me in this field, i just worked exceptionally hard in med school and grinded myself to the bone to match where I did. I felt it was worth it in the end and can be if youd like your choice for fellowship (specialties like GI hemeonc and cards can be more challenging for DOs and being at an academic program with resources can help a lot). Everyone on this thread has given you some very sound advice. Research is exceptionally important for academic IM, academic letters also help and board scores are extremely important. You really have to take Step and Comlex as others have said. You can get some lower tier academic interviews with just a little research and some avg to slightly above avg Step scores which a good portion of DOs do these days! But if you want interviews at the big guns (ie places where no DOs have matched before, have only matched a select few in the history of the program or only match 1 DO per yr on the entire roster amongst all USMDs) this leaves little room for error and youll need a practically flawless application-now that Step 2 is king this means a ~260+ Step 2, research, academic letters, honoring essentially all your rotations in M3 or coming close to it, being top ~10-20% of your class. It can be done though and DOs continue to break glass ceilings every yr in IM (2023 we had DOs match at Vanderbilt and Duke for the first time in history). I would say Duke is top 5ish and Vanderbilt top 10ish which is jaw dropping. Anyways, I can help anyway i can

There was a DO, Duke categorical IM match ?

 

[medstud16]

In the same boat as @whall as a DO student wanting to match IM at an academic center. Any feedback regarding grades during the preclinical years? My school does use a class rank. Average about an A- to an A right now in the courses after multiple exams. Do not expect or anticipate my grades to drop, as I am still definitely adjusting to the learning style and want to continue to improve. I have heard that 3rd and 4th year grades matter much more. Is this true? TIA!

 

[Dorsey DO]

In the same boat as @whall as a DO student wanting to match IM at an academic center. Any feedback regarding grades during the preclinical years? My school does use a class rank. Average about an A- to an A right now in the courses after multiple exams. Do not expect or anticipate my grades to drop, as I am still definitely adjusting to the learning style and want to continue to improve. I have heard that 3rd and 4th year grades matter much more. Is this true? TIA!

My school ranks the top 10%, and everybody else just passes. 10% is tough for me. I'm scoring about the average right now, but it's only been like 6 weeks, so who knows if I will ascend or plateau. But yeah, you create your own learning bubble and think you're great, yet everybody in the class is just as smart or better lol

 

[Deecee2DO]

There was a DO, Duke categorical IM match ?

yes haha

 

[Deecee2DO]

It’s fine to consider where your psychometric baseline is but I wouldn’t just say “My MCAT was average for admitted students so therefore my Step 2 will be average.”


As others have said, it is very important for those programs.

This is very very true-my MCAT was a 497 and I got mid 250s on Step 1 and 2 not to say rhis is common at all but the MCAT doesnt really lock u in to any sort of Step percentile as they are very different exams

 

[Deecee2DO]

In the same boat as @whall as a DO student wanting to match IM at an academic center. Any feedback regarding grades during the preclinical years? My school does use a class rank. Average about an A- to an A right now in the courses after multiple exams. Do not expect or anticipate my grades to drop, as I am still definitely adjusting to the learning style and want to continue to improve. I have heard that 3rd and 4th year grades matter much more. Is this true? TIA!

Pre-clinical grades dont matter but they do reflect your work-ethic and strength of knowledge base going into Step exams which matter a lot. So work hard in the first two years but focus on USMLE relevant material that overlaps with your classes the most. Third yr grades do matter

 

[medstud16]

Can someone also please clarify the best time to do research? I know my school offers research electives starting in the second semester and obviously in the summer. After the first year, though, when would be best? It is a little confusing since rotations start pretty early after the second-year summer.

 

[medstud16]

My school ranks the top 10%, and everybody else just passes. 10% is tough for me. I'm scoring about the average right now, but it's only been like 6 weeks, so who knows if I will ascend or plateau. But yeah, you create your own learning bubble and think you're great, yet everybody in the class is just as smart or better lol

I agree! I always feel I do well and then the average is maybe just 5% below mine so it starts to feel like not good enough.

 

[hellosnd]

yes haha

Which school was it from, I don’t see anyone on the match list on IG

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Which school was it from, I don’t see anyone on the match list on IG
Same!?

 

[KaiBuzz]

Can someone also please clarify the best time to do research? I know my school offers research electives starting in the second semester and obviously in the summer. After the first year, though, when would be best? It is a little confusing since rotations start pretty early after the second-year summer.

It doesn’t hurt to start doing research during your M1 year. It takes time to get published and you’ll want as many as possible for your residency application. Some of your peers will already have publications from their gap year Clinical Research Coordinator positions.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Can someone also please clarify the best time to do research? I know my school offers research electives starting in the second semester and obviously in the summer. After the first year, though, when would be best? It is a little confusing since rotations start pretty early after the second-year summer.

As early as possible especially at DO and low tier MD schools that don’t have the research infrastructure needed to quickly publish

 

[medstud16]

Great, I figured. Thank you all!

 

[Deecee2DO]

Which school was it from, I don’t see anyone on the match list on IG
Same!?

Maybe im mistaken but I thought this yr they did. apologies if i am incorrect here

 

[OhFlDO]

Maybe im mistaken but I thought this yr they did. apologies if i am incorrect here

I dont think any at Duke but there was one this year at Penn

 

[Deecee2DO]

I dont think any at Duke but there was one this year at Penn

My apologies everyone it was Penn i had it mixed up!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Hello,

I began my 1st year at a D.O. school. I'm researching early and want to match competitively in IM. I would be disappointed if I am hindered by the D.O. stigma and match into a local, community health setting. Nothing wrong there but I have bigger aspirations. The goal is to match into a prestige, name-recognized program, and/or academic center. I would say being D.O. realistic an Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, UCSD-type program would suffice. My question is from the main categories to be D.O. competitive, which is most important/least important and where should I spend most of my time.

Step Scores = Planning to take Step 1+2. Based on my standardized testing experience, I strongly believe I will achieve a solid 240-ish on Step2, nothing else or nothing more.

Leadership= I would like to be an elected position for the Internal Medicine club at school, but I heard it's a popularity contest, and I'm not that type of person to play that political game. Right now, I plan to just attend regular meetings/events.

Research= I've never formally done research, plus all my passion for learning would come from passing blocks/board exams. So really not interested here unless it's very important for those prestige programs.

Volunteering= My school has a 35-hour and 70-hour volunteer distinction. But each volunteer event is like only 2 hours, so achieving the 35 hour-mark seems more realistic considering everything else I have to do.


Personally, I'd like to focus on quantifiable metrics, like Step 2 results. Plus, it's a universal benchmark so I can be compared to MDs applying to the same programs. The leadership and volunteering aspects I don't mind doing, but they are school-specific, so seem like less weightage than a uniform benchmark like Step. Those are my 2-cents, but overall I'd appreciate further insight and direction on what I should focus on.

It's time you start accepting you're a DO. The likelihood of matching Emory or UCSD is very low. It's mainly a pipe dream. You should instead focus on a program that has your intended fellowship and has a good reputation at doing that despite name

 

[Deecee2DO]

It's time you start accepting you're a DO. The likelihood of matching Emory or UCSD is very low. It's mainly a pipe dream. You should instead focus on a program that has your intended fellowship and has a good reputation at doing that despite name

I dont think youre wrong but i think this may sway OPs mindset in a negative way. Maybe im delusional and I think we should be realistic yet def aim to inspire. there are DOs that have broken barriers such as this past year ie UPenn and Vandy. If they went in with this mindset they may have not done what they did. Have had some DOs at Emory but not very many (maybe 1 or 2 ever). Sure OPs chances are low but if he shoots for the stars he could end up somewhere still competitive if he has the drive/wants it bad enough. Some solid residency programs in IM that take DOs (althought not a whole lot but a few per class like maybe 1 or 2) such as Brown Dartmouth Georgetown Cleveland Clinic etc. OP may be one of those people who knows and that will set him up well for fellowships at some good places as well as an academic career if he wants one. In summary all im saying is OP should shoot for the stars and see where he lands

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I dont think youre wrong but i think this may sway OPs mindset in a negative way. Maybe im delusional and I think we should be realistic yet def aim to inspire. there are DOs that have broken barriers such as this past year ie UPenn and Vandy. If they went in with this mindset they may have not done what they did. Have had some DOs at Emory but not very many (maybe 1 or 2 ever). Sure OPs chances are low but if he shoots for the stars he could end up somewhere still competitive if he has the drive/wants it bad enough. Some solid residency programs in IM that take DOs (althought not a whole lot but a few per class like maybe 1 or 2) such as Brown Dartmouth Georgetown Cleveland Clinic etc. OP may be one of those people who knows and that will set him up well for fellowships at some good places as well as an academic career if he wants one. In summary all im saying is OP should shoot for the stars and see where he lands

A valid counter philosophy

 

[DO2015CA]

Glass ceilings are broken with a tincture of delusion

 

[medstud16]

This mentality is very reductive and counterproductive. Speaking for myself, I think for anyone aiming high as a DO, you are aware (or at least should be aware) of what is feasible. I don't expect to match somewhere like NW that has never? I believe taken a DO for IM. But also, it is important to be motivated and know that for such programs that have taken DO students, you are not the first and you may not be the last. There is always a chance, but there is no chance at all if you don't hit the ground running and aim for success from the start. This can apply to many things in medicine. It is not a field that will wait for you. You cannot remediate bad grades or a lack of research in year 4. I may not get what I want, but if I try hard, I at least will not have any regrets about the work I put in. With all due respect, I don't think the original post had anything to do with not accepting their position as a DO student.

 

[AlteredScale]

Step Scores = Planning to take Step 1+2. Based on my standardized testing experience, I strongly believe I will achieve a solid 240-ish on Step2, nothing else or nothing more.

Leadership= I would like to be an elected position for the Internal Medicine club at school, but I heard it's a popularity contest, and I'm not that type of person to play that political game. Right now, I plan to just attend regular meetings/events.

Research= I've never formally done research, plus all my passion for learning would come from passing blocks/board exams. So really not interested here unless it's very important for those prestige programs.

Volunteering= My school has a 35-hour and 70-hour volunteer distinction. But each volunteer event is like only 2 hours, so achieving the 35 hour-mark seems more realistic considering everything else I have to do.

There's no magic formula to match a top IM program. All of the above is important but this isn't applying to medical school. You can't check box anymore. You need to show that you have potential to be an academic leader, that you aren't going to place "just for the name". Whether you show that leadership through research, teaching, focusing on DEI disparities, you need to show you've developed your niche and that there is a team of leaders in that field to vouch for you, AND that the program you want to go to fits and supports that field.

What USMD students really have access to that DO students don't are exceptionally strong opportunities to do more besides pass your boards. Most DO schools continue with the outdated 2+2 curriculum, limiting any time to individualize interests, research opps are lacking (there's very minimal NIH funded research at any DO school and you are funneled to do OMT research). Most PDs have no clue how strong your LOR really is from an attending at a smaller community hospital and tbh, don't weigh it as heavily as a letter from an academic faculty who says "of the 10 years I have been doing this, student xyz is in the top 10% I have worked with". With newer curriculums USMD are able to find their interests in an area and spend many months in that field while getting letters from leaders. Hence they can really shine and show a story of growth into an academic leader, and that's why these top IM programs seem to select USMDs and not DOs despite meeting all the criteria.

 

[aisle13]

How does this change for a first year DO student like me, who is strong in research, but is more towards the middle of their pack in their pre-clinical classes? Will my mediocre preclinical grades keep me from strong academic IM or pediatric residencies?

In my specific case, strong in research means ~20 mostly first author clinical abstracts & publications in big journals with ~10-20 coming over the next 3.5 years, under the direction of a well-known MD academic leader who is mentoring me in their field & knows me well. All of these publications except for two are in the same field (allergy).

 

[Deecee2DO]

How does this change for a first year DO student like me, who is strong in research, but is more towards the middle of their pack in their pre-clinical classes? Will my mediocre preclinical grades keep me from strong academic IM or pediatric residencies?

In my specific case, strong in research means ~20 mostly first author clinical abstracts & publications in big journals with ~10-20 coming over the next 3.5 years, under the direction of a well-known MD academic leader who is mentoring me in their field & knows me well. All of these publications except for two are in the same field (allergy).

PM me

 

[djc560]

PM me

would it be okay if I pm you as well? I am an OMS2 currently

 

[Deecee2DO]

would it be okay if I pm you as well? I am an OMS2 currently

yes fr sure

 

[TransformerInWestVirginia]

UCSD and Northwestern are definitely not realistic for a DO. They weren't realistic 5 years ago let alone now with a P/F step 1.
If you are cream of the crop of every DO school in the nation, then I guess it may be possible? But even then it will take some serious serious elbow grease