Reputations and rates

[PsychNLife]

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So earlier I was having trouble deciding between program types , and at this point I've made my decision to apply to everything that seems like it could be a good fit (cohort, interest, location, and expense wise)... and not as much
base it directly off of the program type.

So, I've been looking at local programs to begin with. I live in MA, but obviously I'm also willing to look in other states (I like CA, CT, Vermont, NH, WA, NY, Maryland, Oregon, Maine, Philly, Wisconsin, Michigan).... basically nowhere racist/homophobic or entirely barren of city life.

For psyd programs..... which in these areas (basically most of the east coast and parts of west coast) have arguably the best reputations (AKA good pass and match rates). Any good ones with financial aid ?

For clinical psychology PHD programs.... which one's are arguably SLIGHTLY easier to get into ? In these areas, which ones are more clinically balanced ?

For masters programs... which ones tend to feed into other doctorate programs or are favored by other programs?

 

[deleted343839]

basically nowhere racist/homophobic

Ahhh, Vermont, that bastion of diversity.

 

[PsychNLife]

Ahhh, Vermont, that bastion of diversity.

I mean it’s pretty and has somewhat liberal politics right ? At least that’s what I’ve heard, plus I know some Bennington people that love the area.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Ahhh, Vermont, that bastion of diversity.

Vermont is actually a rather liberal state, with some enclaves of funkiness (Burlington, Brattleboro, and, to a lesser extent, Bennington). Not a lot of racial or ethnic diversity, however. Pretty limited in terms of graduate programs, too.

In Mass, you could check out doctoral programs at Suffolk, UMass Boston, and Springfield College.

 

[PsychNLife]

Vermont is actually a rather liberal state, with some enclaves of funkiness (Burlington, Brattleboro, and, to a lesser extent, Bennington). Not a lot of racial or ethnic diversity, however. Pretty limited in terms of graduate programs, too.

In Mass, you could check out doctoral programs at Suffolk, UMass Boston, and Springfield College.

I’m looking at those.... most of these are PhD correct? Do you know much about the general reputation and acceptance rates for any of these ? I’m a decent student (3.6-3.7 gpa) but those 2% acceptance rates at some places make me extremely wary.
Edit: I see Springfield is a PsyD. Is it any good ?

 

[Sanman]

I’m looking at those.... most of these are PhD correct? Do you know much about the general reputation and acceptance rates for any of these ? I’m a decent student (3.6-3.7 gpa) but those 2% acceptance rates at some places make me extremely wary.
Edit: I see Springfield is a PsyD. Is it any good ?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Hiw far down the east coast are you willing to go?

 

[PsychNLife]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Hiw far down the east coast are you willing to go?

Pretty farish. I’d like some city life but don’t need the biggest or busiest city. I’d like some type of culture, and be fairly socially and politically left leaning.

 

[Sanman]

Vermont is actually a rather liberal state, with some enclaves of funkiness (Burlington, Brattleboro, and, to a lesser extent, Bennington). Not a lot of racial or ethnic diversity, however. Pretty limited in terms of graduate programs, too.

In Mass, you could check out doctoral programs at Suffolk, UMass Boston, and Springfield College.

Ah Vermont, home to Bernie Sanders, Ben & Jerry, and a host of different shades of white people who love cheddar (or maybe just my Vermonter friends). Just don't call it New Hampshire.

ABA, How is Suffolk's PhD rep now? Interviewed there, but the funding was very poor back in the day. I did get to have lunch with Edith Kaplan though!

 

[Sanman]

Off the top of my head, Rutgers is a good PsyD/PhD bet. Binghamton in upstate NY has a pretty strong dept, Stony Brook on long island, Fordham, CUNY, U of Maryland, Virginia Consortium in Clinical Psych. The Georgia public Unis have tons of great programs, same with North Carolina, U of Florida as well.

Widener, Loyola U, LIU Brooklyn, Yeshiva have decent, but very expensive PsyD programs that may not be financially worth it.

For masters, start with your public state U and worth outward. Beware living costs when looking at east coast city programs.

 

[PsychNLife]

Off the top of my head, Rutgers is a good PsyD/PhD bet. Binghamton in upstate NY has a pretty strong dept, Stony Brook on long island, Fordham, CUNY, U of Maryland, Virginia Consortium in Clinical Psych. The Georgia public Unis have tons of great programs, same with North Carolina, U of Florida as well.

Widener, Loyola U, LIU Brooklyn, Yeshiva have decent, but very expensive PsyD programs that may not be financially worth it.

For masters, start with your public state U and worth outward. Beware living costs when looking at east coast city programs.

I looked at Rutgers and I’m considering it but I’m pretty sure it’s acceptance rate is 2%. Id be alright with those 4ish New York based ones you mentioned but I’ve never heard of them so I’d need more info. Unfortunately I think Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia are kinda out due to the geography. I haven’t heard of that Florida one but I guess I’d be okay with Florida maybe. In terms of cost of living, the one advantage of staying local is that I’d be able to live with family to cut costs.

I’ve heard of Loyola, but none of those others so I’ll look into it. Are most of these good in terms of matching and passing reputations ?
I understand that PsyD’s are expensive. My mother swears that she can help cover it so my loans are not much more than 50-60,000 total, but lower is much better obviously.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I think this map is apropos (and accurate, other than NE Conn.). For reference, I live at the border of “hippie students” and “hippie farmers,” and grew up in the land of the cultured hill folk.

As to the specific programs I cited, all I know is they are relatively less competitive than the “2%” admission rates the the OP cited.

 

[Sanman]

I looked at Rutgers and I’m considering it but I’m pretty sure it’s acceptance rate is 2%. Id be alright with those 4ish New York based ones you mentioned but I’ve never heard of them so I’d need more info. Unfortunately I think Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia are kinda out due to the geography. I haven’t heard of that Florida one but I guess I’d be okay with Florida maybe. In terms of cost of living, the one advantage of staying local is that I’d be able to live with family to cut costs.

I’ve heard of Loyola, but none of those others so I’ll look into it. Are most of these good in terms of matching and passing reputations ?
I understand that PsyD’s are expensive. My mother swears that she can help cover it so my loans are not much more than 50-60,000 total, but lower is much better obviously.

Just a general word of advice, most programs worth applying to in this field have a <10% acceptance rate. Throw in an enjoyable locale and the numbers dip further. If you feel you cannot compete now, for whatever reason, keep in mind you will be competing with these people your entire career (internship, post-doc, jobs). I am a liberal New Yorker that ended up living in the south for grad school because it was what I had to do to compete. Half the people in my program were from the northeast and wanted to go back there.

If you don't want to do that, consider being the top of the heap for SW or counseling programs. More doors will open there than bottom of the barrel PsyD programs.

For instance, You can teach in acounseling or SW program coming from a top program in that field. You pretty much can't teach anywhere coming from a bottom ranked PsyD.

 

[PsychNLife]

Just a general word of advice, most programs worth applying to in this field have a <10% acceptance rate. Throw in an enjoyable locale and the numbers dip further. If you feel you cannot compete now, for whatever reason, keep in mind you will be competing with these people your entire career (internship, post-doc, jobs). I am a liberal New Yorker that ended up living in the south for grad school because it was what I had to do to compete. Half the people in my program were from the northeast and wanted to go back there.

If you don't want to do that, consider being the top of the heap for SW or counseling programs. More doors will open there than bottom of the barrel PsyD programs.

For instance, You can teach in acounseling or SW program coming from a top program in that field. You pretty much can't teach anywhere coming from a bottom ranked PsyD.

I’ve had that thought (of obtaining a masters), but the salary prospects are so low from what I’ve heard (not looking to make big bucks, but be comfortable). Also, I do have an interest in doing neuropsychological testing as well as private practice and hospital work, and it seems like there’s a strong doctorate advantage with that.

 

[PsyDr]

uhhhhh, you think the only state in the nation that has a ban on black people as part of their state constitution and had the highest per capita KKK membership is not racist?!

I guess the only other state in the union where making porn is super legal, might be less homophobic. But I have heard great stuff.

And I suppose the state where the governor complained in 2017 about other racial groups coming to his stare and impregnating the white women.... well I guess that’s not homophobic.

Maybe the state that explicitly banned the building of synagogues in its founding documents isn’t... oh wait.

 

[PsychNLife]

uhhhhh, you think the only state in the nation that has a ban on black people as part of their state constitution and had the highest per capita KKK membership is not racist?!

I guess the only other state in the union where making porn is super legal, might be less homophobic. But I have heard great stuff.

And I suppose the state where the governor complained in 2017 about other racial groups coming to his stare and impregnating the white women.... well I guess that’s not homophobic.

Maybe the state that explicitly banned the building of synagogues in its founding documents isn’t... oh wait.

I had no idea about some of this stuff!! I need to look deeper into locations but this is new information for me. Thank you for informing me about this.

 

[Sanman]

I’ve had that thought (of obtaining a masters), but the salary prospects are so low from what I’ve heard (not looking to make big bucks, but be comfortable). Also, I do have an interest in doing neuropsychological testing as well as private practice and hospital work, and it seems like there’s a strong doctorate advantage with that.

Salary prospects vary by person. Don't believe lies, damn lies, or statistics. I know social workers that make more than most psychologists and psychologists that make less than the average LCSW.

Neuropsychology is very competitive and be oming more difficult. It requires a dedicated path and not just any grad program spot will do. I would listen to some of the many neuropsychs on here regarding what your focus should be if neuropsych is your goal. It is even more likely to make you move around the country as there is not a ton of good neuropsych training in the northeast.

 

[PsychNLife]

Salary prospects vary by person. Don't believe lies, damn lies, or statistics. I know social workers that make more than most psychologists and psychologists that make less than the average LCSW.

Neuropsychology is bery competitive and be oming more difficult. It requires a dedicated path and not just any grad program spot will do. I would listen to some of the many neuropsychs on here regarding what your focus should be if neuropsych is your goal. It is even more likely to make you move around the country as there is not a ton of good neuropsych training in the northeast.

I meant more like neuro psych testing at a side gig, not like my main interest is neuro psych (I prefer less neuro based things generally). I’ve never heard of a masters student making a decent salary in psych, but I suppose maybe it is possible. Nearly everyone else I’ve met says otherwise. Plus, in terms of insurance stuff, testing, hospital practicing authority, and working with serious psychopathology it seems that there’s still a doctorate advantage.

 

[Sanman]

I meant more like neuro psych testing at a side gig, not like my main interest is neuro psych (I prefer less neuro based things generally). I’ve never heard of a masters student making a decent salary in psych, but I suppose maybe it is possible. Nearly everyone else I’ve met says otherwise. Plus, in terms of insurance stuff, testing, hospital practicing authority, and working with serious psychopathology it seems that there’s still a doctorate advantage.

What advantage is there in terms of "insurance stuff" and hospital practice authority?

Neuropsych on the side? Anyone want to comment on how realistic that is? I am tired.

 

[PsyDr]

I meant more like neuro psych testing at a side gig, not like my main interest is neuro psych (I prefer less neuro based things generally). I’ve never heard of a masters student making a decent salary in psych, but I suppose maybe it is possible. Nearly everyone else I’ve met says otherwise. Plus, in terms of insurance stuff, testing, hospital practicing authority, and working with serious psychopathology it seems that there’s still a doctorate advantage.

It’s not a side gig. You are talking about one of the most difficult specialities in psychology. Learn general clinical psych. Then add in an exceptional amount of additional anatomy, pathology, laboratory studies, specialized testing, etc. Then add in keeping current in neuropsych and neurology. Once you are competent, you’re investing a minimum of $10k in equipment just to get started. And what happens when the community learns there’s a needed specialist in the area? The floodgates open, and that’s all people want to come see you for.

Red Sox fans...

 

[jdawg2017]

It’s not a side gig. You are talking about one of the most difficult specialities in psychology. Learn general clinical psych. Then add in an exceptional amount of additional anatomy, pathology, laboratory studies, specialized testing, etc. Then add in keeping current in neuropsych and neurology. Once you are competent, you’re investing a minimum of $10k in equipment just to get started. And what happens when the community learns there’s a needed specialist in the area? The floodgates open, and that’s all people want to come see you for.

Red Sox fans...

Yeah, no... neuropsych testing is not a side gig. Neuropsychologists may do therapy as a side gig, not vice versa. In an era in which psychology and neuropsychology are becoming increasingly more medicalized, board certification in neuropsych is the way of the future for most current trainees. Once you go through 8 years of your life (PhD in neuro area, internship and post-doc in neuro), it would be an obscene waste of one’s training to not have it be a main part of their profession.

If you want to stay in Boston, BU, Suffolk, and U Mass Boston all have good reputations neuropsych trainees in their clinical psych programs. I think I’ve met a few through Harvard, though it’s less common. William and James (MSPP) also does neuro but why spend $$$$$$ when you don’t have to do that? The earnings potential, while nice for neuro/psychologists, is not worth the massive debt in most cases. But maybe Warren or Bernie can make for-profit schools tuition free even for PsyD?

 

[MAClinician]

http://mitch.web.unc.edu/files/2017/02/MitchGradSchoolAdvice.pdf

 

[deleted343839]

I mean it’s pretty and has somewhat liberal politics right ? At least that’s what I’ve heard, plus I know some Bennington people that love the area.

I apologize for the snark. I just tire of the illusion that white liberalism is somehow incompatible with racism. Racism is everywhere.

If the goal is to be among other politically liberal/progressive folks in geographically desirable areas, just say so. But if the goal is to be not racist, especially as a future practitioner, you are going to need a different strategy.

U of Maryland, Virginia Consortium in Clinical Psych. The Georgia public Unis have tons of great programs, same with North Carolina, U of Florida as well

These and more! There are fantastic programs up and down the eastern U.S. If you're willing to venture further south you may be rewarded.

 

[Sanman]

http://mitch.web.unc.edu/files/2017/02/MitchGradSchoolAdvice.pdf

This is awesome. Mods can this get it's own sticky?

 

[MAClinician]

This is awesome. Mods can this get it's own sticky?

It’s already in a sticky (which apparently have moved to the bottom of my phone screen or side of computer monitor, instead of being “stuck” at the top). It’s in the Doctoral Applicants Please Read First. Which also apparently never gets read by the very people posting about wanting to apply to graduate programs and wanting advice.

 

[R. Matey]

A lot of your questions can be answered in APA’s graduate study in psychology or insider’s guide. I’d consult these in addition to SDN.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PsychNLife]

Yeah, no... neuropsych testing is not a side gig. Neuropsychologists may do therapy as a side gig, not vice versa. In an era in which psychology and neuropsychology are becoming increasingly more medicalized, board certification in neuropsych is the way of the future for most current trainees. Once you go through 8 years of your life (PhD in neuro area, internship and post-doc in neuro), it would be an obscene waste of one’s training to not have it be a main part of their profession.

If you want to stay in Boston, BU, Suffolk, and U Mass Boston all have good reputations neuropsych trainees in their clinical psych programs. I think I’ve met a few through Harvard, though it’s less common. William and James (MSPP) also does neuro but why spend $$$$$$ when you don’t have to do that? The earnings potential, while nice for neuro/psychologists, is not worth the massive debt in most cases. But maybe Warren or Bernie can make for-profit schools tuition free even for PsyD?

I actually have been looking into William James college, mainly because they came to represent at my university (Brandeis), and they seemed decent. I was going to talk to their admissions ppl to get more info. Is there a consensus on their quality in general ? Also o should mention that my general interest remains more clinical than neuro, it was just a thought. Yes obviously it’s better to do free, I’m just making sure I keep all my options open.

 

[ExpertHoopJumper]

I looked at Rutgers and I’m considering it but I’m pretty sure it’s acceptance rate is 2%. Id be alright with those 4ish New York based ones you mentioned but I’ve never heard of them so I’d need more info. Unfortunately I think Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia are kinda out due to the geography. I haven’t heard of that Florida one but I guess I’d be okay with Florida maybe. In terms of cost of living, the one advantage of staying local is that I’d be able to live with family to cut costs.

I’ve heard of Loyola, but none of those others so I’ll look into it. Are most of these good in terms of matching and passing reputations ?
I understand that PsyD’s are expensive. My mother swears that she can help cover it so my loans are not much more than 50-60,000 total, but lower is much better obviously.

"I haven't heard of that Florida one. . ." suggests to me you have not done nearly enough of your own legwork. UF is one of the premier clinical psych grad programs there is (no, I didn't go there). And discounting Georgia, North Carolina, and other states in the south is stupid. You should go to the best program you can get into that provides a stipend and the preparatory training necessary to make you competitive for your chosen niche.

 

[jdawg2017]

I actually have been looking into William James college, mainly because they came to represent at my university (Brandeis), and they seemed decent. I was going to talk to their admissions ppl to get more info. Is there a consensus on their quality in general ? Also o should mention that my general interest remains more clinical than neuro, it was just a thought. Yes obviously it’s better to do free, I’m just making sure I keep all my options open.

Per conversations with my PIs, other faculty, and training supervisors I’ve had, the trainee quality at William James reflects the trainees and not the program itself. It’s, okay, at best as a program; at worst, teetering (perhaps) on predatory. The people who excel are those who came in with a lot of prior training and clear cut goals. The best programs usually don’t go to recruit people at campuses. I would seriously advise reading mitch’s guide and consider that taking on easily 100k+ debt (more because Boston living) doesn’t make sense; nor does spending that much money if you’re independently wealthy either.

 

[R. Matey]

You should go to the best program you can get into that provides a stipend and the preparatory training necessary to make you competitive for your chosen niche.

Look at what @MAClinician shared and what I shared in terms of resources to get a better sense of the field. Also, don't be afraid to use your university's career services.

 

[MAClinician]

I actually have been looking into William James college, mainly because they came to represent at my university (Brandeis), and they seemed decent. I was going to talk to their admissions ppl to get more info. Is there a consensus on their quality in general ? Also o should mention that my general interest remains more clinical than neuro, it was just a thought. Yes obviously it’s better to do free, I’m just making sure I keep all my options open.

William James representing in your campus is like Ernie Bach Jr. showing up to your campus promising shiny new cars for everyone then shoving a $40,000 purchase contract in your hand and telling you to sign it just before you drive off campus. You said in your other thread you don’t want to attend a diploma mill...but WJC is exactly that kind of school. If you live near Boston I know you have heard Ernies commercial on the radio.

A quick perusal of your school’s undergrad website shows a psychology club AND Psi Chi chapter on your campus. Do they not have career workshops and the like? Are there not faculty you have taken courses with that you can discuss your interests with and get guidance on? There are many resources available both at school AND online as was posted earlier in this thread but you need to put the effort in to get the most of what is out there.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would second (or third/fourth/fifth?) the recommendation to broaden the search area and loosen the cultural restrictions/criteria, as much as is possible. Keep in mind, as a part of mental health practice, you're going to be working with people who hold views very different from your own. Some of these views may seem off-putting to you, and may not become apparent until you've worked with the person for some time. But as a mental health provider, it's still often your job to help that person, regardless of whether or not you agree with their views. And it would be your job to be aware of your own biases and reactions in this regard to ensure they do not negatively impact the therapeutic relationship.

Being exposed to cultures and people around whom you feel less comfortable, rather than those with whom you share the most interests, may actually be good for professional growth.

As was said, the public universities throughout the south (and in pretty much every state), such as UF, USF, UGA, LSU, UK, the U of Alabama system (Tuscaloosa and Birmingham) have excellent reputations and reasonable costs of attendance. Same goes for places throughout the midwest and southwest, such as UMich, MSU, UWisconsin, UKansas, UTexas, etc. Not to say you need to apply to the entire country, but there are gems everywhere. And college campuses in general tend to skew liberal. Your quality of life while in school is obviously very important, but I know many folks who were pleasantly surprised at how much they enjoyed areas about which they were initially hesitant.

I'm not as familiar with all the universities in the northeast, but folks above have covered many already. When in doubt, large state/public universities are going to be a safe bet for high-quality training.

 

[cara susanna]

I agree that research/clinical fit is more important than location. I went to grad school in a smaller town in a deep red state and it was fine. College towns are usually more liberal.

 

[Justanothergrad]

General good life/career advice below, feel free to ignore:
1. Worry about research/clinical fit and quality rather than location as a first line decision
2. Avoid debt. period.
3. Challenge your stereotypes. You may be amazed at what places, and the people there, are actually like.
4. Be open. You will also need to work with this skill in life and the profession.
5. Racism is everywhere, don't presume its limited to places not in the NE.

 

[Temperance]

A lot of your questions can be answered in APA’s graduate study in psychology or insider’s guide. I’d consult these in addition to SDN.

Seconding this. The guides can be helpful starting points when you're trying to consider a broad range of programs and don't yet have a way of narrowing them down. The Insider's Guide also has some information preceding the listings that can tell you about the process of identifying and applying to programs, and the listings themselves has self-reported information about the program, including clinical versus research emphasis in training.

• Graduate Study in Psychology | IndieBound.org
• Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology: 2020/2021 Edition | IndieBound.org

Once you've looked through and identified potential programs, go to the individual program websites; the books are starting points but are not always the most up-to-date, especially if programs have undergone changes recently. With regard to your question about "good pass and match rates", the way you can find this information for individual programs is to look for the Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other Data. APA-accredited programs are required to post tables with information about:

1. Time to completion
2. Program costs - Note that this information is not reported consistently; some fully-funded programs will report their tuition as zero while others will report the actual cost of tuition but give you a tuition waiver when you matriculate.
3. Internship placement - "Students who obtained APA/CPA-accredited internships" is what matters. Given that there are now more internship sites than applicants, you ideally want something 90%+. Also note the trend; if a program consistently is unable to place students in internships, then what's going on there?
4. Attrition - Was there one year when a bunch of students left the program? Is the program consistently losing one or two students per year or every couple of years? There are many reasons why people leave programs, including personal ones that have nothing to do with the program itself, but a trend would be something to look into.
5. Licensure - Some programs, especially research-intensive programs, will not have a 100% licensure rate if graduates go to academia instead of clinical practice. However, if a Psy.D. program whose stated mission is to train practitioners has a low licensure rate, then what's going on there?
6. (Optional) Admission statistics - Not all programs report this table, as it's not required by APA but is instead encouraged by CUDCP. However, if this table exists, it reports number of applications received, number of admissions offers, number of matriculants, number of funding offers, and average GREs and GPAs. If you want something that's less competitive, then this table can give you information about that; however, speaking as someone who obsessed over this at some point, it's not as useful as one would think!

To show an example of what this looks like in real life, this is from the University of Rhode Island.

As you're cruising through program websites, read the information in their about pages and in their clinical handbooks. A lot of it will all look the same at first, but those documents will tell you what a program values in terms of training, how they plan on training you as a clinical psychologist, and what you can expect, which can further guide where to send your applications.

Finally, a note on location: I can understand wanting to be careful about political climate. However, I agree with the others who have said that college towns tend to be liberal -- and psychology is fairly liberal, to boot -- but this is something that might be helpful to suss out by speaking with current graduate students. If there are specific things that concern you (e.g., gender, sexual, or any other minority status), then, depending on the cohort, you may or may not be able to find graduate students who can tell you what life is like as a member of that minority group. Regardless, students tend to be candid about what life is like or what they have observed if they're not of that minority themselves. Shoot them an email!