Research as a MD

[Platypus777]

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I was wondering whether anyone has some information about the possibility of medical research in aus with just a MD degree. I know in the US there are MD/PHD dual degrees, and that also research can be done with just an MD, even if it is more rare.


I absolutely see myself doing research throughout my medical career, and would love any information about this topic. Such as the possibility of getting research funding, and job opportunities that allow both clinical work and research.


Sorry if this has been answered before, but the search function hasnt been working for me. I haven't heard it come up before though.

 

[Phloston]

If you're asking whether someone can do research while enrolled in an MD program, while not concurrently enrolling in a PhD or MPhil, the answer is yes. UQ has an honor's track for students who want to do concurrent research while not pursuing a dual-degree. If you plan on a long-term research-based medical career, however, it's probably in your best interest to do a PhD in addition to the MD. Research is also as formal or informal as you want it to be. No one has restrictions on you. You just need to contact a potential advisor and say that you want to get involved, and then that's it. If you want to take it further and pursue a dual-degree, then yeah, you'll also need to file the appropriate application / paperwork in addition to the former.

 

[Leforte]

Agree with Phloston - you do not need to be involved in an advanced degree program to be involved with good research. That being said - if you are applying for highly competitive training programs in Australia - obtaining an advanced degree after your primary medical degree is a good way to get involved with the training program that you are interested, allows you time to fill the "points" required to make your CV more substantial, and allows you insight into your chosen career path. You will also make contacts within the specialty's community, and research involvement is definitely considered more favourably than PHO or Non-accrediated Registrar time.

Conversely, in the USA (which I know is not in this thread, but I put this out for information only) - NIH has demonstrated multiple times that there is no advantage to a combined MD/PhD vs MD in regards to obtaining NIH funding for projects (at the R01, R03 or K08 level). I am not too sure what the NHMRC data is.

 

[Platypus777]

Thanks for the response! I was more interested with the opportunity to do research after medical school / during residency (without the PHD at the time), as I am aware that research during medical school is definitely possible.



While getting a PHD would definitely be something I would want to do, from an international standpoint that would just cost too much if I am already paying international tuition until I would be able to qualify for PR unfortunately.

 

[Leforte]

Phloston may have some insight into getting an advanced degree as an overseas student. I got my PhD in Australia and my medical degree in the USA. I did not pay any tuition for my PhD. In fact, I was supported throughout it by UQ and had a very good lifestyle. So, there are ways to make it work.

As far as pursuing research in your PGY1+ years - there are ample opportunities in Australia. I wouldn't take too much on as an intern, but in your PGY2+ years, it is easy to get involved in clinical +/- bench work in your chosen field provided you are in a major centre. Obviously more difficult if you go regional. The plus side is that you are earning a wage as a resident. The down side is that you have to ensure that your clinical duties do not suffer. Personally, I feel that dedicated research time is always more beneficial as it allows you to focus, but I understand financial constraints. You'll have to sort that out for yourself. I'd recommend talking to your med schools combined degree coordinator and seeing if a MMedSci/MS/etc would be an option. You can always upgrade to a PhD if research suits you.

 

[Platypus777]

Thanks thats reassuring, as I am definitely sure I want to be involved in both clinical practice and research . I am actually considering taking the opposite route that you took and getting my PHD here in the states first so it will be fully funded, that way I guess I can see how the internship shortages turn out (even though I doubt I will be too pleased)

Out of curiosity are you practicing in the states now or aus?

 

[Leforte]

USA for residency and practiced there a few years - now in Australia.

 

[Phloston]

While Leforte may have been fortunate enough to have been supported by UQ, that's the exception rather than the rule. UQ talks a lot more than it gives. I'm paying (50k x 4) for the medical degree and (40k x 3) for the PhD at UQ = 320k; adding on living expenses of 30k/yr, my time at UQ = $530,000 in loans. Adding on the deferred loans from my previous 4-yr degree from the States = $730,000 to pay back after med school. I hope to Gd I get into plastic surgery residency 🙂xf🙂, otherwise I'll just have to change my identity.

 

[Platypus777]

Yeah I definitely dont want to have to take out more money for the phd there if I can get it free in the states. How useful would a PHD be as far as residency applications (and maybe even internship matching if I am looking into Umelb), assuming your research overlaps somewhat with the given field?

 

[Phloston]

People will tell you different things, but the PhD is always an unequivocal advantage. If anyone tells you it's not, it's because he or she doesn't have one or isn't/wasn't willing to pursue one. Its value is particularly high if you're applying to a heavy research institution (e.g. Yale). The vast majority of physicians become everyday altruistic ones with just mere clinical experience, but they don't change the field or have any impact on the future of the profession; one's research-drive dictates the latter. A PhD signifies that you're taking the steps to become a future career leader. That doesn't mean that a PhD is a prerequisite for career leadership, but with respect to residency applications, your publications and PhD will provide useful evidence.

 

[MR1990]

While Leforte may have been fortunate enough to have been supported by UQ, that's the exception rather than the rule. UQ talks a lot more than it gives. I'm paying (50k x 4) for the medical degree and (40k x 3) for the PhD at UQ = 320k; adding on living expenses of 30k/yr, my time at UQ = $530,000 in loans. Adding on the deferred loans from my previous 4-yr degree from the States = $730,000 to pay back after med school. I hope to Gd I get into plastic surgery residency 🙂xf🙂, otherwise I'll just have to change my identity.

I can't fathom having loans over even $400K let alone $700K. With interest I could see your debt easily getting over $1 million. What is your plan to pay this all off?

 

[cosycatus]

as he replied, plastic surgery, though, i dun see how a 700K loan , even without accounting for interest rates, can be easily paid at all. And to think about it, he took a 30K a year loan for living expenses? Must be living it up in Queensland.
Good luck man...and one thing, you definitely have to publish for PhD, so if u look at it, there is nothing special about a MBBS/Phd with publications, despite what he thinks. Yes, a MBBS/Phd > just MBBS alone all things equal, but if you are just a MBBS and you actually publish something within that 4 years you are studying ( ie, u actively seek our research and do something significant to publish WHILE doing med school at the same time) speaks a lot more volume about you, ie MBBS with publications > MBBS/PHD, imho

 

[Phloston]

as he replied, plastic surgery, though, i dun see how a 700K loan , even without accounting for interest rates, can be easily paid at all. And to think about it, he took a 30K a year loan for living expenses? Must be living it up in Queensland.
Good luck man...and one thing, you definitely have to publish for PhD, so if u look at it, there is nothing special about a MBBS/Phd with publications, despite what he thinks. Yes, a MBBS/Phd > just MBBS alone all things equal, but if you are just a MBBS and you actually publish something within that 4 years you are studying ( ie, u actively seek our research and do something significant to publish WHILE doing med school at the same time) speaks a lot more volume about you, ie MBBS with publications > MBBS/PHD, imho

Once again, this guy is an example of someone who falls into the category of persons who is not doing a combined MBBS-PhD (MD-PhD) himself, but says he knows the PhD won't help: clueless. It's only people who don't do the combined degree who talk it down. Very typical, no offense.

Until you actually do a combined degree yourself, you have no idea.

 

[cosycatus]

Once again, this guy is an example of someone who falls into the category of persons who is not doing a combined MBBS-PhD (MD-PhD) himself, but says he knows the PhD won't help: clueless. It's only people who don't do the combined degree who talk it down. Very typical, no offense.

Until you actually do a combined degree yourself, you have no idea.

i didn't say that it wouldn't help. I am saying it's low yield. And there isn't any relation in doing the combined degree and knowing what gets you into competitive programs ( infact, i know it's pointless, so i am not doing it.) I am saying that doing a MD/PHd for the sake of getting into a competitive specialty isn't really worth the effort be it in australia or maybe the US. It's ok to do a MD/Phd if you are genuinely interested in research.

I am not sure about the US, but i think good LORs, USMLEs and honours in clerkship counts more than a Phd, plus coming from a good medical school and being a US citizen.
In Australia, a Phd is even less use. It gives u a max of 5 points for consideration in the various surgical specialty. Of this section which is maximum of 5 points, you can earn the points in various other ways such as publications ( 2-3 points), presentation at national or international conference (2 points) or even a masters degree in medicine or surgery ( 2 points). Even teaching anatomy while as junior doctor to medical students gets you 1-2 points ( for orthopedics wannabes) .Doing the extra 3-4 years for a phd while as an undergrad is low value. You are better off spending 3 years as a junior doctor and doing relevant research, audit, improvement projects, part time phd and performing well clinically to stand a higher chance.

I know it's a huge investment for you and you really do not like to hear otherwise...but dude, if u are plonking down an additional few hundred k and few years of precious time just thinking a Phd is going to magically open the doors to plastic surgery , good luck. Have a look at the credentials of surgeons ( in australia at least), few of them have phD behind their names. My interaction with young surgical registrars so far is that most of them are really clinically strong and good communicators ( even better than their medical registrar counterparts ) and the consensus is that what gets you into surgical training is not a Phd but being good clinically, because u are , after all , a doctor, not a researcher.

 

[Phloston]

i didn't say that it wouldn't help. I am saying it's low yield. And there isn't any relation in doing the combined degree and knowing what gets you into competitive programs ( infact, i know it's pointless, so i am not doing it.) I am saying that doing a MD/PHd for the sake of getting into a competitive specialty isn't really worth the effort be it in australia or maybe the US. It's ok to do a MD/Phd if you are genuinely interested in research.

I am not sure about the US, but i think good LORs, USMLEs and honours in clerkship counts more than a Phd, plus coming from a good medical school and being a US citizen.
In Australia, a Phd is even less use. It gives u a max of 5 points for consideration in the various surgical specialty. Of this section which is maximum of 5 points, you can earn the points in various other ways such as publications ( 2-3 points), presentation at national or international conference (2 points) or even a masters degree in medicine or surgery ( 2 points). Even teaching anatomy while as junior doctor to medical students gets you 1-2 points ( for orthopedics wannabes) .Doing the extra 3-4 years for a phd while as an undergrad is low value. You are better off spending 3 years as a junior doctor and doing relevant research, audit, improvement projects, part time phd and performing well clinically to stand a higher chance.

I know it's a huge investment for you and you really do not like to hear otherwise...but dude, if u are plonking down an additional few hundred k and few years of precious time just thinking a Phd is going to magically open the doors to plastic surgery , good luck. Have a look at the credentials of surgeons ( in australia at least), few of them have phD behind their names. My interaction with young surgical registrars so far is that most of them are really clinically strong and good communicators ( even better than their medical registrar counterparts ) and the consensus is that what gets you into surgical training is not a Phd but being good clinically, because u are , after all , a doctor, not a researcher.

Once again, clueless. You have no idea what you're remotely talking about and your statements couldn't be more misguided, uninformed and misrepresenting, and not to mention, full of insecurity and stupidity.

 

[Leforte]

I can give some insight from my experiences.

I have an MD and a PhD. My MD is from a US med school and my PhD is from an Australian institution (UQ). I had a Fulbright, which allowed me to get my PhD. I had a USMLE Step I score of 241. At the time, it was about 1.5 STD above the norm. I applied to 35 programs, and got 32 interviews, obviously this was in ENT. I had 6 publications and 2 patents from my PhD. I did my PhD in just under 2 years. I had 5/6 3rd year clerkship honours. I matched well.

That being said - I do not think that my PhD was what gave me my interviews. In fact, to be honest, it almost was a detriment, as many clinically oriented programs wondered why I was applying to them. Some even said that I should not rank them. Seriously.

It really comes down to your USMLE scores, LOR, 3rd year grades and med school. That is it. The PhD is a bonus - but not a deal maker. In fact, having spent a few years as academic faculty in the USA, I can tell you that when we were ranking candidates, it really never came up. Yes we talked about what publications someone did - but if 2 people each had 3 publications from respected journals - if one had a PhD or not, it was a moot point. In fact, there seemed to be a preference to the person who could do it while going the typical MD route.

That being said - there were faculty who advocated for someone who had a PhD - IF they knew their mentors and could vouch for their work ethic.

In Australia, I am finding that a PhD is of even less importance, provided you max out your points in research and presentations. In fact, there is actually an advantage to not having a PhD, provided that you are strong in research, and are willing to take a clinician-investigator slot. These seem to be allocated separately from the normal pathway and can be an additional way to get into a program.

While I commend anyone who pursues a PhD - as I found it far more difficult than my MD to get. I would not recommend it as a pathway to get into any surgical specialty. Yes - some programs may look at it favourably, but, in my experience as both an applicant and as a former faculty member, there are far more other aspects that are weighted higher in the overall scheme - including the interview and LORs, provided your USMLE score meet the minimum for an interview. In Australia - it is all about he points. You need to max out your points for each section, while ensuring you have met their requirements for entry (ICU, ED, Etc). An advanced degree, while nice to discuss in the interview, is of limited value in the overall points scheme.

 

[Phloston]

I don't think anyone was ever debating that one shouldn't do a PhD simply for the sake of applying to residency. If someone does it for that reason alone, then he or she is also just as clueless as those who talk it down. Yet again, it's true that the USMLE Step1 score (and 2CK to a lesser degree) is the defining factor of any application; no PhD or strong LoRs will make up for a mediocre Step1 performance. It also depends on where you're applying. Heavy research institutions (e.g. Harvard, Yale) specifically select applicants based on their research and potential for future career leadership (I have a relative who's MS4 at HMS who's reiterated this), and this couldn't be more true when it comes to surgery residencies, particularly plastics. If you take a look at the academic profiles of the PDs of these programs, they do tons of research. At the same time, most surgeons/physicians around the country/world don't do research; it's only a small fraction, so that explains why PDs at the majority of programs wouldn't consider it heavily. It's a more impactful application factor at high-tier research institutions.

 

[gethscout]

While Leforte may have been fortunate enough to have been supported by UQ, that's the exception rather than the rule. UQ talks a lot more than it gives. I'm paying (50k x 4) for the medical degree and (40k x 3) for the PhD at UQ = 320k; adding on living expenses of 30k/yr, my time at UQ = $530,000 in loans. Adding on the deferred loans from my previous 4-yr degree from the States = $730,000 to pay back after med school. I hope to Gd I get into plastic surgery residency 🙂xf🙂, otherwise I'll just have to change my identity.

Let me get this right.... you borrowed $200K for undergrad? 😱
You are PAYING tuition of $120K for a science Ph.D with no subsidy whatsoever? 😕
Borrowing $320K for the medical degree?
AND you're gunning for plastic surgery in the USA? 👎
Speechless...

 

[cosycatus]

Let me get this right.... you borrowed $200K for undergrad? 😱
You are PAYING tuition of $120K for a science Ph.D with no subsidy whatsoever? 😕
Borrowing $320K for the medical degree?
AND you're gunning for plastic surgery in the USA? 👎
Speechless...

lol...shssshh, dun burst his bubbles. I really know of very few pple who pays for a phd. Most of the time, they get PAID to do a phd. Makes you wonder about his grades...and UQ , being UQ, how can they turn down the $$$? But oh well, to each his own. 730K!!! Haha, he is a mini-subprime crisis by himself. Junk bond with a self indulgent triple AAA rating ( I am Ph.D, therefore, i can be a plastic surgeon and no problem paying 730K!)

just curious, does any one in UQ know this guy in person? I can't really believe such an obnoxious guy exists. So many of us , including US medical school faculty has come and point out the fault in his thinking...and he still goes on about his relative in HMS, oh pls, if u need to go to UQ for medical studies with over 100 medical schools in the States, stop dreaming about HMS.

 

[Phloston]

Let me get this right.... you borrowed $200K for undergrad? 😱
You are PAYING tuition of $120K for a science Ph.D with no subsidy whatsoever? 😕
Borrowing $320K for the medical degree?
AND you're gunning for plastic surgery in the USA? 👎
Speechless...

Interestingly, I'm actually not even really concerned about the debt, nor do I think "gunning" for plastics in the USA is a big deal. We're all responsible for making our own futures happen, and these pecuniary/academic obstacles I don't see as particularly onerous.

lol...shssshh, dun burst his bubbles. I really know of very few pple who pays for a phd. Most of the time, they get PAID to do a phd. Makes you wonder about his grades...and UQ , being UQ, how can they turn down the $$$? But oh well, to each his own. 730K!!! Haha, he is a mini-subprime crisis by himself. Junk bond with a self indulgent triple AAA rating ( I am Ph.D, therefore, i can be a plastic surgeon and no problem paying 730K!)

I studied abroad at USyd and worked at a Sydney hospital during part of my undergrad. Because I had graduated a semester early, I was able to launch an Australian med application for curiosity sake. Melbourne didn't have a class the year I applied; Sydney wasn't taking applications till mid-year (even though I had originally been considering them over UQ); UQ was accepting applications early. Anyway, when I got the invite letter just two months later and knew that I could spend the rest of my 20s in Australia, the decision wasn't a very difficult one at all.