Last edited:
Research/Coursework Mistakes in Undergrad so far
- Thread starter Cockasian
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 333
- Reaction score
- 1
This is going to sound really cliche, but I think that the real value in research lies in the journey and not the destination (at least while you are an undergrad and don't have faculty / administrators breathing down your neck to publish / submit grants / earn money / put food on the table). It's great that you want a publication (and this is a great goal), but as an undergrad I'd say it's a bit foolish to choose a lab based solely on your ability to get a publication there.
You said that Lab C was "very exciting," and that you won an award working there, but that then you picked up a second project at Lab D because you thought you could get a publication there. Here's what I'd do. Drop the Lab D job, and put all your effort into your job at Lab C. Work on getting to know the PI better, build his trust, show that you are a hard worker. You said your relationship with him was "so-so" but it sounds much better than in Lab D. Plus, when you ask the Lab C guy for the LOR, you can mention (if he doesn't know) about the award, about your interest in the research, etc etc.
Don't do two labs at a time. Very, very bad idea unless you are either not in school or are so on top of your academics that you just have time to kill. Also, it's hard to give your fullest in one lab when you know you have to go to the other lab that same day, do some really long procedure, then go home, do homework, wake up the next day, go to class, etc etc.
As far as LORs from the professors. Does your undergrad advising office have a service where the advisor will read through your letters and pick out the best ones to send along? We have a thing here where even though I sign a confidentiality statement, my advisor will read the letter and won't put something in my application that's just really bad. If this is the case for you, I'd ask ALL your PIs for letters and have the advisor sift through them. You might be surprised which ones are the best...sometimes PIs are just really tough on undergrads but are secretly proud / impressed. Some PIs can have really weird personalities, or just be not personable to your face.
I would definitely include the letter from Lab C given that you won an award for working there.
I know VERY well where you are coming from with regards to being frustrated by research opportunities. Are you a MD or an MD/PhD applicant? That would change my recommendations slightly. As an MD/PhD you want as much research experience as possible (probably more than most MD applicants would have) and you want to demonstrate that you can work independently (and hopefully successfully) on your own project, have a good knowledge of the field, can understand / interpret / present your results and understand their significance.
As an MD, research is great (and pubs are even better), but (and this is not true for all cases) you are unlikely to get grilled about it during the interview. You need to know it, obviously, in case they ask questions, but chances are it will be a "nice thing to have" rather than the conversation piece of the interview as it wold be for an MD/PhD.
Here are a few things you need to keep in mind:
-Take enough credits to be a full-time student at your school. Two classes is low, but I know people who do 4 classes + research for credit...I think that's probably OK. If you are a "part-time" student for a while, it's going to raise flags.
-Your GPA is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if you have a first-author pub but a 3.3 or something. Publications are GREAT, but they won't compensate for a low GPA unless you have a stellar MCAT, great LORs, really compelling story. If your GPA isn't where you want it to be right now, consider taking a gap year so that your senior year classes will be taken into account.
-When interview time comes around, brush up on the research that you did in all the labs you worked in. I don't think you have to say that you "got fired" from your first lab...you can just say that you felt like you wanted to move on and get some different experience.
-If you don't have publications, be able to discuss your research intelligently. Don't just be like "yeah, I made some LB, did a lot of PCR, made media, etc etc." Be able to discuss the particular projects that you worked on (review any relevant publications), the results you helped obtain, the purpose of the project, the limits of the project, how things might have gone if you did X or Y differently, how the results fit into the larger field of research and what future projects either you or the lab would like to pursue (i.e. what unanswered questions did the project dig up).
Sorry this post is so long and probably unorganized, but I have a good deal of experience dealing with PIs who are ... less than nice ... as an undergrad and my application is really research heavy because I want to do the PhD as well. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me.
You said that Lab C was "very exciting," and that you won an award working there, but that then you picked up a second project at Lab D because you thought you could get a publication there. Here's what I'd do. Drop the Lab D job, and put all your effort into your job at Lab C. Work on getting to know the PI better, build his trust, show that you are a hard worker. You said your relationship with him was "so-so" but it sounds much better than in Lab D. Plus, when you ask the Lab C guy for the LOR, you can mention (if he doesn't know) about the award, about your interest in the research, etc etc.
Don't do two labs at a time. Very, very bad idea unless you are either not in school or are so on top of your academics that you just have time to kill. Also, it's hard to give your fullest in one lab when you know you have to go to the other lab that same day, do some really long procedure, then go home, do homework, wake up the next day, go to class, etc etc.
As far as LORs from the professors. Does your undergrad advising office have a service where the advisor will read through your letters and pick out the best ones to send along? We have a thing here where even though I sign a confidentiality statement, my advisor will read the letter and won't put something in my application that's just really bad. If this is the case for you, I'd ask ALL your PIs for letters and have the advisor sift through them. You might be surprised which ones are the best...sometimes PIs are just really tough on undergrads but are secretly proud / impressed. Some PIs can have really weird personalities, or just be not personable to your face.
I would definitely include the letter from Lab C given that you won an award for working there.
I know VERY well where you are coming from with regards to being frustrated by research opportunities. Are you a MD or an MD/PhD applicant? That would change my recommendations slightly. As an MD/PhD you want as much research experience as possible (probably more than most MD applicants would have) and you want to demonstrate that you can work independently (and hopefully successfully) on your own project, have a good knowledge of the field, can understand / interpret / present your results and understand their significance.
As an MD, research is great (and pubs are even better), but (and this is not true for all cases) you are unlikely to get grilled about it during the interview. You need to know it, obviously, in case they ask questions, but chances are it will be a "nice thing to have" rather than the conversation piece of the interview as it wold be for an MD/PhD.
Here are a few things you need to keep in mind:
-Take enough credits to be a full-time student at your school. Two classes is low, but I know people who do 4 classes + research for credit...I think that's probably OK. If you are a "part-time" student for a while, it's going to raise flags.
-Your GPA is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if you have a first-author pub but a 3.3 or something. Publications are GREAT, but they won't compensate for a low GPA unless you have a stellar MCAT, great LORs, really compelling story. If your GPA isn't where you want it to be right now, consider taking a gap year so that your senior year classes will be taken into account.
-When interview time comes around, brush up on the research that you did in all the labs you worked in. I don't think you have to say that you "got fired" from your first lab...you can just say that you felt like you wanted to move on and get some different experience.
-If you don't have publications, be able to discuss your research intelligently. Don't just be like "yeah, I made some LB, did a lot of PCR, made media, etc etc." Be able to discuss the particular projects that you worked on (review any relevant publications), the results you helped obtain, the purpose of the project, the limits of the project, how things might have gone if you did X or Y differently, how the results fit into the larger field of research and what future projects either you or the lab would like to pursue (i.e. what unanswered questions did the project dig up).
Sorry this post is so long and probably unorganized, but I have a good deal of experience dealing with PIs who are ... less than nice ... as an undergrad and my application is really research heavy because I want to do the PhD as well. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2009
- Messages
- 57
- Reaction score
- 0
I can sort of feel your pain. I had an undergraduate thesis advisor who was the laziest bastard I've ever met and I argued with him constantly because I did not trust him and he generally was not interested much in giving me the help I needed. Needless to say I did not ask for a letter of rec from him.
Unfortunately for you it seems that you just aren't cut out for bench work from what you posted. If that's really the case you should re-evaluate your goal of publishing because it's a difficult thing to do especially as an undergrad, and you really need to be good at what your doing to get there. If your ultimate plan is med school your focus should have been elsewhere. It's ok to admit you don't like research or weren't stellar at it. Most MD's don't do research anyway. I say don't ask for a letter unless you can somehow screen before sending it to AMCAS(maybe ask your pre-med advisor to read it and comment?). If you absolutely need one, then I guess you have no choice so ask anyway.
As far as the rest goes, grades should always be your priority followed by shadowing, volunteering (unless the plan is MD/PhD) and then research and other stuff. If your grades are suffering stop pursuing the research until you can get them up. B's are not necessarily horrible assuming you've maintained a cum of >3.5.
Just to warn you about research: I'm a masters level student with a publication as second author and one to come as first author. I've been doing good quality work on several projects with good letters of rec (from all but the one PI that I mentioned) since my freshman year. So far I've had only 2 interview invites from Baylor and Uconn with a 3.8 GPA and 36 MCAT. I am absolutely convinced that it is because neglected volunteering and shadowing in favor of research. Research alone isn't going to get you in. I hope you aren't setting yourself up for the same situation I'm in.
Unfortunately for you it seems that you just aren't cut out for bench work from what you posted. If that's really the case you should re-evaluate your goal of publishing because it's a difficult thing to do especially as an undergrad, and you really need to be good at what your doing to get there. If your ultimate plan is med school your focus should have been elsewhere. It's ok to admit you don't like research or weren't stellar at it. Most MD's don't do research anyway. I say don't ask for a letter unless you can somehow screen before sending it to AMCAS(maybe ask your pre-med advisor to read it and comment?). If you absolutely need one, then I guess you have no choice so ask anyway.
As far as the rest goes, grades should always be your priority followed by shadowing, volunteering (unless the plan is MD/PhD) and then research and other stuff. If your grades are suffering stop pursuing the research until you can get them up. B's are not necessarily horrible assuming you've maintained a cum of >3.5.
Just to warn you about research: I'm a masters level student with a publication as second author and one to come as first author. I've been doing good quality work on several projects with good letters of rec (from all but the one PI that I mentioned) since my freshman year. So far I've had only 2 interview invites from Baylor and Uconn with a 3.8 GPA and 36 MCAT. I am absolutely convinced that it is because neglected volunteering and shadowing in favor of research. Research alone isn't going to get you in. I hope you aren't setting yourself up for the same situation I'm in.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 333
- Reaction score
- 1
Sorry to hijack the thread -- but are you an MD applicant or an MD/PhD applicant?
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2009
- Messages
- 57
- Reaction score
- 0
I was convinced the PhD was not necessary by a post-doc I work with so I applied MD. I'm currently trying to have my application moved to the MD/PhD pool, at least for Uconn anyway (I'm on the MD waitlist).
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 333
- Reaction score
- 1
That's funny...I've talked to postdocs who have told me the same thing (just do a post-doc...worth just as much as a PhD). Good luck with the application process and getting it moved to MD/PhD. Looking at your stats, I think you'd be really competitive for MD/PhD programs. I wouldn't give up hope for MD either though. Great stats + masters student + publication seem to me like they'd hold a good bit of weight.
Yeah, that's a lot of pinballing. I have been at the same lab I started at for the past 1.5 years. I don't think it was the lack of effort, but I do think you should only focus on working in just one lab. Putting all your efforts there will probably lead to more fruitful results and get more notice from you PI than if you have to split your time between multiple labs, not to forget all the other course and volunteer commitments you might have.
I have to admit that bouncing from lab to lab like you have done would raise flags for me. It shows a lack of commitment, and perhaps a bit of "greener grass" syndrome. One lab experience with an excellent letter would mean more than three experiences where you're not even certain of a positive letter, much less an excellent one.
A further bit of advice from someone with a lot of lab experience... NEVER work for two labs simultaneously. Labs are jealous mistresses. Both PIs will be angry that you're giving time to another lab which could be devoted to theirs. After all, our PIs would prefer that we lived in their lab, if possible. All of this will result in lack of trust and poor letters, overall.
A further bit of advice from someone with a lot of lab experience... NEVER work for two labs simultaneously. Labs are jealous mistresses. Both PIs will be angry that you're giving time to another lab which could be devoted to theirs. After all, our PIs would prefer that we lived in their lab, if possible. All of this will result in lack of trust and poor letters, overall.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 248
- Reaction score
- 0
I think the PI can sense that you're not really in the lab for the sake of doing the research, but merely to put it on your app for medical school. I think they form that opinion the moment you tell them that you are "pre-med". But this can't be avoided, and the best you can do is put in an honest effort so that they can avoid thinking about such issues. I had a similar situation, but my current PI is much more understanding and actually supporting of me decision to go to medical school. In other words, she doesn't dislike the fact that my ultimate goal is an MD. I still like research, and I make sure never to portray an attitude that reflects a nonchalant, resume monger personality. I think that you have enough research, and you should now focus on getting in some clinical experience, as this is a BIGGIE when it comes to M.D apps. Join a local hospital, or get a job at a clinic, shadow, E.R scribe, whatever. Get some clinical experience. And VOLUNTEER. Whatever ignites your passion. Balance out your activities. After all, you're not aiming for a PhD, or even an M.D/PhD.
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2008
- Messages
- 208
- Reaction score
- 0
Not to hijack this thread too much, but I have conducted some research in an ER testing the effects of treatment XYZ for chronic headaches. I say some because the project was temporarily put on hold while the physician leading the project was out of the country. At any rate, will this research suffice, assuming it is more lengthy or should I also be pursuing research in a lab setting? It's already been quite meaningful but I am not even exactly sure when everything will resume. I only ask this here because there seems to be a great wealth of knowledge floating around. I remember reading somewhere that the exact type of research is not all that important so long as some research is done it shows that an applicant has a certain skills set and way of thinking that is desirable. I wanted to double check before its too late to correct on time. Thanks
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 333
- Reaction score
- 1
It definitely sounds valuable to me. It's clinical rather than wetlab research, but I'd say it "counts" for sure if that's what you're worried about. You could hunt for a "bench" research position if you wanted to see another side of research but it depends. I'd do it if you enjoy it. If you are just so-so about it and prefer volunteering / community service, go for that instead. You've probably fulfilled the "research quota," and since you led the project it sounds like you can get a good LOR from the physician when he gets back.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 33
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm sorry but what does PI mean?
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2008
- Messages
- 1,471
- Reaction score
- 8
PI stands for principal investigator -- in other words, the bigwig of a particular research project.
