Research during a pathology residency.

[Nanomed Dreams]

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What's the OT8? Class of 2008?

Exactly. It's a strange tradition here with the professional programs at UofT...at least engineering and medicine that I know of. It originated back when it made sense -- ie. 4T8 instead of '48.

 

[yaah]

Immunology is a huge area for path research. IMHO, if your ultimate goal is to be a department chair you should focus on immunology, because it seems like every other department chair is an immunologist.

 

[Gut Shot]

Ok, but how far does the variety extend? Does pathology as "the study of disease" hold out? What about immunology or genetics as related to disease processes? I'm just curious what types of research are "acceptable" for pathologists to do.

Any type they can get funding for.

 

[Nanomed Dreams]

Don't do it, man - even you're pets will hate you for being so poor.

Is that really true? What's the deal with AP vs. CP salaries? Does CP really pay that much more, and if so, why?

And does research really hurt your salary that much? I mean, I know that typically academic positions pay somewhat less that equivalent private ones (for whatever reason). But it doesn't seem to be true for research specifically at the teaching hospitals here, where all pathologists seem to get similar base salaries, regardless of whether they do research or not.

 

[Nanomed Dreams]

By the way, you guys are absolutely astonishing. I come back 2 hours after my post expecting to find a reply or two, if I'm lucky. And there's 40+?!? Of which only the first few are actually related to my question, of course....but it's still pretty amazing.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Excellent - pop quiz. When you match at your number 1 choice, do you respond by:

A) Jumping up and down and screaming hysteically
B) Crying like a baby and calling your mom
C) "GodDAMN! That's some good Colt 45!"

Most likely C)

Here's the thing. I don't jump up and down. I don't scream hysterically. I don't cry like a baby or a bitch. I probably will call my parents, if they don't call me first. When I find out the result, and if I get my #1 (it's IF geddy, not WHEN), I will request to be alone when I get the email. And if I get my #1, I'll just nod my head in affirmation, walk around with both thumbs up and just calmly tell the people and friends in lab, "It's done." I will give a few high fives here and there when necessary but that is the extent to which I will celebrate. Then it's on to the drinking.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Is that really true? What's the deal with AP vs. CP salaries? Does CP really pay that much more, and if so, why?

And does research really hurt your salary that much? I mean, I know that typically academic positions pay somewhat less that equivalent private ones (for whatever reason). But it doesn't seem to be true for research specifically at the teaching hospitals here, where all pathologists seem to get similar base salaries, regardless of whether they do research or not.

It is a well recognized that academia pays much less than the private practice sector. If you do private practice path, you can make some serious bank. $300,000+. If you do academics, mainly research, you'll make 6 figures but the first number will always be a 1.

 

[Gut Shot]

If you do academics, mainly research, you'll make 6 figures but the first number will always be a 1.

Indeed, it's not really a question of research vs. no research as it is academics vs. private practice. Often "research" and "academics" are used interchangeably, although there are academicians who do zero research.

 

[beary]

there are academicians who do zero research.

I have never understood why anyone would do this, given the salary differential between academics and private practice. Is it just sheer joy of teaching? Maybe being able to go to talks, having access to all the journals, etc.?

 

[geddy]

Here's the thing. I don't jump up and down. I don't scream hysterically. I don't cry like a baby or a bitch. I probably will call my parents, if they don't call me first. When I find out the result, and if I get my #1 (it's IF geddy, not WHEN), I will request to be alone when I get the email. And if I get my #1, I'll just nod my head in affirmation, walk around with both thumbs up and just calmly tell the people and friends in lab, "It's done." I will give a few high fives here and there when necessary but that is the extent to which I will celebrate. Then it's on to the drinking.

I'm very similar - when I got my letter to get into a competitive orchestra in high school, I opened the letter in the bathroom - I opened my MCAT scores in an empty room. I would really like to open my residency letter somewhere quiet. I like to react alone and then face the world.

But, I'd sip the Colt 45 before you find out - it works every time.

 

[deschutes]

I know that typically academic positions pay somewhat less that equivalent private ones (for whatever reason). But it doesn't seem to be true for research specifically at the teaching hospitals here, where all pathologists seem to get similar base salaries, regardless of whether they do research or not.

I am not familiar with the situation in Ontario (I think you guys have more community hospitals than we do?) but the PD at my home institution basically told me that all pathologists at the teaching hospitals get similar base salaries across the country.

Plus, Canada doesn't have the huge population of private hospitals that the US does.

 

[Gut Shot]

I have never understood why anyone would do this, given the salary differential between academics and private practice. Is it just sheer joy of teaching? Maybe being able to go to talks, having access to all the journals, etc.?

Could be a number of things. In a big medical center you can super-subspecialize. Some like to teach. In some places the environment is much more slack than private practice. You get to see all the weird stuff, too.

 

[yaah]

Well, the full tenured professors do allright. It is junior faculty that don't get paid well.

That being said, though, apparently the dermpath people get an extra $100k on top of what other faculty get just so they aren't tempted to leave for private practice. Amazing.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I'm very similar - when I got my letter to get into a competitive orchestra in high school, I opened the letter in the bathroom - I opened my MCAT scores in an empty room. I would really like to open my residency letter somewhere quiet. I like to react alone and then face the world.

But, I'd sip the Colt 45 before you find out - it works every time.

Yep same here. When I got the early decision acceptance from Hopkins, I opened up the envelope in the privacy of my own room. I saw the good news and just sat there and let it sink in. Then I came out of my room, told my parents, and they were like, "now if this was an acceptance letter from Hahbahd-duh, then we'd be proud of you." just kidding. they were ecstatic.

I remember opening up my MCAT scores in my apartment with the lights down and all being quiet.

Unfortunately, when I got my step 1 score in the mail, a few housemates were peering over my shoulder (which is easy cuz i'm short) as i was opening up the score report. that's what happens when you live with 30 other people.

I'll take your advice on the Colt 45. This would be a first. I just found a dive liquor store literally 2 min 18 seconds away from my apartment. I'm gonna have to go shopping there soon. Pick up mah fohty of colt fohty-five.

 

[Nanomed Dreams]

I am not familiar with the situation in Ontario (I think you guys have more community hospitals than we do?) but the PD at my home institution basically told me that all pathologists at the teaching hospitals get similar base salaries across the country.

Plus, Canada doesn't have the huge population of private hospitals that the US does.

I'm not sure what you mean by community hospitals. There are no "public hospitals", per se. They are all private, to the best of my knowledge, unless I'm missing some legal distinction. In general, medical care in canada is "publicly funded", and "privately delivered". So every doctor, clinic, and hospital is privately owned or employed. But the majority of all their fees (those covered by public health insurance) comes from the government. So its and interesting situation. It's gets even more interesting since the above only applies to "billing", whereas many hopstial-emplyed pathologists are salaried. But I get the impression they can often supplement their salaries by billing...not exactly sure how this is done. Anyway, if you're interested, you can see the salaries (ie paid directly by the hospital) for everyone in ontario paid by a hopsital who made more than 100,000 in 2004. Find pathologists by searching for "pathologist", "M.D.", "MD" or "Physician" (the naming is arbitrary by institution). You'll find a couple salaried radiologists, oncologists, etc., but mostly pathologists.

The teaching hospitals in toronto are "Mt. Sinai, St Michael's, Toronto General, Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto Western, and Sunnybrook". Many of the other hospitals are not academic.

It's funny because their salaries vary a lot, but I think it's due to location (ie. ruralness) and seniority. Plus we don't know how much they can supplement their salaries.

I'm interested in the US as well, though, not just canada.

 

[Nanomed Dreams]

Well, the full tenured professors do allright. It is junior faculty that don't get paid well.

That being said, though, apparently the dermpath people get an extra $100k on top of what other faculty get just so they aren't tempted to leave for private practice. Amazing.

Heh, does that mean that dermpath is about as hard as derm to get into?

 

[Nanomed Dreams]

It is a well recognized that academia pays much less than the private practice sector. If you do private practice path, you can make some serious bank. $300,000+. If you do academics, mainly research, you'll make 6 figures but the first number will always be a 1.

What accounts for this difference? How much you can bill? How much the group takes off the top? The types of things you're doing?

 

[PathOne]

Heh, does that mean that dermpath is about as hard as derm to get into?

In a word: Yes.

Both derms and paths can apply for dermpath fellowship, and stats on the path side are generally roughly equal to the derms, and certainly uniformly above your average path resident.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

What accounts for this difference? How much you can bill? How much the group takes off the top? The types of things you're doing?

Well I dunno how billing works in academic path. But in research, there is no billing. You apply for grants, do research, publish, get promoted, etc.