Research Ethical Dilemma

[purplesaurus]

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That's my concern too. I am skeptical that an undergrad lab would make enough of a contribution to science to justify the lives and deaths of these animals. Most undergraduate labs are about verifying things that are already known to be true, not about adding to the existing body of knowledge.

It is possible they were donated from a lab that had used them in previous experiments and was going to euthanize them anyway. My lab often did this for people who needed to learn certain techniques.

I feel that these particular researchers (and please don't assume I'm making a blanket statement here) did not care about the welfare of these animals whatsoever, and it was more about the money and churning out good results for them.

In my experience, I have found that a lot of people (though by no means all) need to develop mental callouses to be able to keep doing it day after day. It's just easier for them to see a lab animal as just another piece of lab equipment. Now, this isn't to say that they like to abuse their animals or truly don't care about their animals' conditions. It's just easier for some researchers to view lab animals as things.

I think what kills me the most (and this is probably projecting) is the thought of having to sit almost all day, everyday in a relatively small cage with nothing to do (I can only speak to how many [most?] rats are kept, so this might not apply to other animals). I know my rats hardly wanted to be reading Shakespeare or playing video games, but rats are intelligent creatures and, I'm sure, need more mental and physical stimulation that you get sitting in a plastic box with nothing more than pine chips for entertainment (of course, this is also the fate for many pet rodents). Well, this and the experiments where pain is not minimalized/eliminated because it is a part of what is being studied.

1. there's far less "unnecessary" use of animals in labs than most people would expect
2. there are lots of protocols and safeguards in place to ensure that animal use is as humane as it could be
3. euthanasia isn't the worst thing that can happen to lab mice
4. as long as there's not much pain involved while lab mice are alive, I don't think their quality of life is worse than most pet mice (so unless we start outlawing mice for pets, I don't see why it's such a big deal).

I also want to re-emphasize this. While I am conflicted personally about using animals in research, I feel that most of what goes on is not nearly as bad as people outside of research assume.

Also, I don't know about other schools, but at my school a lot of our labs didn't have known answers. The profs would typically re-write the labs each semester to investigate new questions while keeping the same general theme (so, for example, every year would do a "photosynthesis lab," but one year would do a lab that focused on how phenomena associated with global warming might affect photosynthesis, while another year would investigate the differences between native and non-native species or something). The profs would then keep all the data from the classes and scan through it to find things that might require more serious research. This was true even in the basic classes, and students in the upper level classes were actually doing some grunt work for research in progress.

*wistful siiiigh* I wish our undergrad labs were like this. And I know I'm supposed to be developing "lab skills," but in my undergrad labs, I don't think I've ever had a TA not say, at least once, "I don't know how to do that because we use more advanced/newer/better equipment/techniques in my lab." I've worked in a real lab, and I learned everything I needed to know on the job. Well, this is a personal problem, but I find it hard to get inspiration to write papers on experiments that have been done over and over by every other class and whose results and mechanisms behind them have already been covered in lecture and textbooks over and over. I like to write about new things!

 

[Tiktaalik]

I was thinking more along the lines of turning some of the those old run-down, vacant airfields into mouse paradise. Think Hangar 18 with cheese.

Local ecosystems might not hold up so well.

 

[August West]

Local ecosystems might not hold up so well.

has never deterred humans before.

 

[Tiktaalik]

has never deterred humans before.

Should probably now. 😛

 

[August West]

Should probably now. 😛

What if I charged admission for people to come visit my mouse circus? And dressed them all up in tiny outfits like they do in Disney movies?

 

[Tiktaalik]

What if I charged admission for people to come visit my mouse circus? And dressed them all up in tiny outfits like they do in Disney movies?

I'd go! 👍

They could make me a lovely dress for the ball.

 

[nyanko]

What if I charged admission for people to come visit my mouse circus? And dressed them all up in tiny outfits like they do in Disney movies?

PeTA would hate you just as much as they hate the researchers then.

edit: for the record, my three (agh) cats are all former research colony cats.

 

[zeebra44]

peta would hate you just as much as they hate the researchers then.

Edit: For the record, my three (agh) cats are all former research colony cats.

haha!

 

[Chapelle]

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[sumstorm]

As for the animal care staff being advocates for the animals that will stand up to PIs...this may happen in labs that use dogs, monkeys, or other personable animals that staff get attached to but with mice this is very rarely the case. The people who usually work these jobs (non-students) don't do it because they love animals, they just need the money.

I think that may depend on the lab. Our rodent colonies, and the colonies I visited during seletive in the reserch triangle all had pretty protective techs in charge. One of the common complaints they had was the lack of skill/knowledge of the researces beneath the PI's.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I think that may depend on the lab. Our rodent colonies, and the colonies I visited during seletive in the reserch triangle all had pretty protective techs in charge. One of the common complaints they had was the lack of skill/knowledge of the researces beneath the PI's.

+1

I think this may really depend on the school. At my school, AC tech was an undergrad student work position, and it was usually filled up with pre-vets. Chastising inept student researchers and advocating for the rats was part of the job.

As for CO2, I'm not really sure about how I feel about it. On the one hand, it is certainly more humane than most alternatives (cervical displacement was probably the worst thing I've ever had to do) and the at high concentration the gas is supposed to function as an anesthetic, but I've actually been trapped in an enclosed space where oxygen is running out & CO2 was building up, and I can confidently say that it was definitely not a peaceful, comfortable place to be. The reaction I see in some CO2 euths seems similar to my own experience, but I think that I am probably projecting - it is also possible that what appears to be a fear reaction to the gas is actually fear of being placed in a very cold, unfamiliar environment. I agree that CO would probably be ideal method because it would avoid any questions we have about CO2 entirely, but it's too much of a liability to use. As for argon, according to the AVMA guidelines on euthanasia (2007), the problem is not with cost but mechanism - animals euthanized with argon die of oxygen deprivation, not the toxic effects of the gas, so all the oxygen must be replaced quickly or the animal will experience the sensation of suffocation, and if oxygen levels come up before death, the animal will recover right away.

Part of the problem with any attempt at humane euthanasia is (a) the body is set up to avoid death at all costs in most situations, so most things that would cause death are likely to also cause some suffering, and (b) it is impossible to get reports from the subjects about the quality of the experience, so even if suffering is not apparent, it may still be present.

 

[DVMDream]

I really have nothing to add to the lab animal side because I have never been in a lab. But while volunteering at the zoo I had to feed the alligators and crocs. They were feed baby mice and rats and since the public does not like to see these animals feeding on live prey (and because there was one blind albino alligator) we had to kill them before hand. The way we did that was to throw them against the ground really hard so that they would die instantly. The supervisor of the reptile area was very adamant that if you could not do it right then you were not allowed because it would cause the mice/rats to suffer. At first I was not sure if I agreed with it or not, but after seeing it done and seeing that the mice and rats really did die instantly and did not suffer I began to become ok with it over time. And since we have to feed these animals to other animals I am not sure if there is a more humane way of doing this.

 

[Chapelle]

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[sumstorm]

DVMDream: That sounds fine but I don't think it would work with adult rodents 🙁

Hate to say it, but it will, if done right, work with large rats, rabbits, and young pigs. I am not convinced I am ok with it or CO2, but given the risk to animals ingesting other euth chemicals...

 

[Chapelle]

Hate to say it, but it will, if done right, work with large rats, rabbits, and young pigs. I am not convinced I am ok with it or CO2, but given the risk to animals ingesting other euth chemicals...

That's a huge "if" though. Any lapse in precision when using this technique would lead to terrible suffering and such a lapse is more likely when you're dealing with a stronger, wigglier, and larger animal - which is why it's not recommended by the AVMA for any animals other than neonates with thin skulls. You would also need a great deal more strength to break an adult skull.

 

[Chapelle]

As for argon, according to the AVMA guidelines on euthanasia (2007), the problem is not with cost but mechanism - animals euthanized with argon die of oxygen deprivation, not the toxic effects of the gas, so all the oxygen must be replaced quickly or the animal will experience the sensation of suffocation, and if oxygen levels come up before death, the animal will recover right away.

AVMA says argon is ok for pigs and poultry (they will continue to eat and will not leave a chamber filling with gas - not the case with CO2) but not rats although they acknowledge that more research needs to be done with it.

 

[sumstorm]

That's a huge "if" though. Any lapse in precision when using this technique would lead to terrible suffering and such a lapse is more likely when you're dealing with a stronger, wigglier, and larger animal - which is why it's not recommended by the AVMA for any animals other than neonates with thin skulls. You would also need a great deal more strength to break an adult skull.

actually, the way I was trained, the goal was not a shattered skull. Then again, our feed animals from the live collection were also very accustomed to people...so I don't remember wiggly animals. Our techniques weren't governed by AVMA either, though.

 

[Tiktaalik]

AVMA says argon is ok for pigs and poultry (they will continue to eat and will not leave a chamber filling with gas - not the case with CO2) but not rats although they acknowledge that more research needs to be done with it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that argon/nitrogen is never useful, just that it is excluded from use in research rodent colonies for humane purposes, not financial ones.

Actually, nitrogen (same use as argon) costs about the same as CO2, if I remember right.

 

[nitheninny]

How about just the healthy ones, not the immunodeficient mice or the ones with induced genetic defects? Where do they go after they find the cheese in the maze? 😕

One of my animal science courses involved studies done with mice dealing with nutrition during pregnancy and following parturition. These mice were immunodeficient but otherwise completely healthy at the end of the experiment. The department donated them to a local raptor preserve to be fed to the birds.

 

[Minnerbelle]

As for the animal care staff being advocates for the animals that will stand up to PIs...this may happen in labs that use dogs, monkeys, or other personable animals that staff get attached to but with mice this is very rarely the case. The people who usually work these jobs (non-students) don't do it because they love animals, they just need the money.

The animal care staff here has been very vigilant about how our mouse colony is being treated. The one time that my boss and I forgot to leave food and water (which both of us felt awful about) for one cage of mice that were slated for euthanasia the next day... we got a huge chastising email from the animal facility the next morning about what cruel people we were for thinking that these mice weren't worth taking care of simply because we didn't need them anymore. From the response we got for accidentally neglecting a cage of mice, I have a feeling that anyone caught being cruel to their research subjects would be dealt with appropriately. Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't some researchers who get away with cruelty... but that's more an issue with individual immoral beings rather than a systematic issue IMO.

Also, a question for minnerbelle: you said the mice you use die a humane death. What method do you use?

The mice we use for any experiments are euthanized with iso. Obviously, it's difficult to feasibly provide 100% pain- and fear-free death to every mouse. But a 2-3 sec whiff of iso I think is about as humane as it gets. If you have a better idea I'm all game.

I guess my point is, I'm obviously not against responsible animal research, but it annoys me when people try to paint a rosy picture of it all or respond to calls for improvement of protocols with the same old speech about how animal research saved us all from polio. There is definitely LOTS of room for improvement even when all established protocols are followed.

I wasn't trying to paint a rosy picture of animal research, and sorry if I annoyed you... but because the thread started out on the uninformed and/or animal rightsy side of things (and believe me I've been there too) I just wanted to give the other side of the story from my personal experiences. My personal take on animal research is that to some degree it's necessary at this point in time. It's far from perfect (e.g. I hate seeing mice live out their lives in little tubs, or being CO2 gassed to death), but it's not nearly as bad as most people make it out to be.

I personally don't like being a part of animal research, but because it came attached to my job (and it would happen in this lab regardless of whether I refused to do it or not), I decided to learn from it as much as I can. I treat my mice with as much kindness and love as I possibly can, and I've found that at least the other mouse investigators in my lab also do as well. We don't just blindly follow protocol just because it's been "approved." We often talk about how painful what we are doing to the mice might be, and try to adjust accordingly so that we are minimizing pain as best we can (and we rarely do anything on a live mouse). That's really the best we can do. For me, this is good enough justification for my conscience, especially for it being a temporary 2 year gig. That doesn't mean I glorify it or even like it. If I did, I would much rather get paid a stipend to get a PhD, rather than go insanely in debt to get my DVM.

 

[Electrophile]

One of my animal science courses involved studies done with mice dealing with nutrition during pregnancy and following parturition. These mice were immunodeficient but otherwise completely healthy at the end of the experiment. The department donated them to a local raptor preserve to be fed to the birds.

Yes, our mice were either donated to the vet school's raptor rehab program or to the herpetological exhibit maintained by the biology department for education. They also went towards my old snakes' meal plan. 😉 Someone asked about transgenic animals. If I remember correctly, they cannot go out of the building alive without some sort of special transport due to the risk of getting into wild populations, so I don't think transgenics can be allowed to be adopted out. Our animal care and use committee likewise has forms to adopt out research animals and our lab animal medicine class has a handling lab where students can adopt out the animals (mostly pocket pets) that are spares from research labs. My husband may or may not have owned a pair of non-transgenic mice from my research lab as well. *ahem*

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I euthanized mice for a study I did using Iso to fully amnesthetize followed by immediate cervical dislocation. Have no problem with that. It's quick and painless.

I also worked as a lab animal care technician for the school and agree that CO2 does not seem to be as quick or humane as people say. Had to euth a few that way as well.

I also disagree that the majority of technicians don't really care about rodents....all the other techs I worked with (majority were non-students) were wonderful advocates for the animals. I'm sorry it doesn't seem to be the case there 🙁 I am sure such a lack of interest does happen with some people doing that type of job. Sure its tedious and you need to develop a thick skin, but you never stop knowing that you are the only voice these little guys have, from pigs to goats to rabbits to gerbils.

 

[Chapelle]

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[eringobraugh]

I euthanized mice for a study I did using Iso to fully amnesthetize followed by immediate cervical dislocation. Have no problem with that. It's quick and painless.

I also worked as a lab animal care technician for the school and agree that CO2 does not seem to be as quick or humane as people say. Had to euth a few that way as well.

I also disagree that the majority of technicians don't really care about rodents....all the other techs I worked with (majority were non-students) were wonderful advocates for the animals. I'm sorry it doesn't seem to be the case there 🙁 I am sure such a lack of interest does happen with some people doing that type of job. Sure its tedious and you need to develop a thick skin, but you never stop knowing that you are the only voice these little guys have, from pigs to goats to rabbits to gerbils.

I totally agree with this, especially about the CD. I have worked in a lab for the past two years doing cancer and drug biodistribution research. The common belief around here is that CD is the more humane way to sac a 20g rodent. This belief is held by the 3 veterinarians that run our HUGE research animal facility, as well as the IACUC certifying officers at my University. I'm not saying I agree, and I hate doing it, but for us, it's the only option. When you have a 5 minute time point after injecting a drug, sacrificing the mouse with CO2 just isnt an option, we need an EXACT time of death, not an estimation.

Also, the techs at our facility are not students, they are all required to be RVTs and if we have a three strike policy in that if you have more than three health reports filed with the vets about your animals your privledges are revoked. We do surgeries where we innoculate mice with ovarian tumors and seriously, 5 minutes after I put the cages back I got a call about why our mice were lethargic (still coming out of anesthesia). I don't know if we are just lucky to have awesome techs or if it's becuase of the Peta sting operation that went on here last fall 🙂. Probably a mixture of both.

I'm not going to lie, I love the reasearch we do and without our mice our lab would be nonexistant and I'd be out of the job. I hate sacrificing the mice but it's a necessary evil, at least for us. 😳