Research For General surgery

[Target55]

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I am an IMG with past Clinical electives at US, I am interested to get into an integrated 6 year CT residency as my first choice and my second choice to get into a GS residency.

I have Three questions:
first: I have an opportunity to do a 1 year of research in the field of cardiothoracic surgery at a prominent university based institution at US, but I am afraid that it turn useless if I failed to get an integrated 6 year CT residency because it is not in the field of main General Surgery (i.e. will it be a fine choice to choose a research at CT and try to apply to GS ?).

Second: How competitively is the integrated 6 year CT residency specially for FMG?.

Third: Can I just get into the first 3 year of GS in an ACGME approved GS training program that fulfill the requirement of the first 3 GS years of any integrated 6 year CT then jump to join a 3 year CT fellowship at any program ?. please review the attached website, item No.3 under Board Certification.
http://www.womensurgeons.org/education/CDR/thoracic.htm

thank you

 

[Blade28]

*Integrated CT residencies/fellowships are still quite rare and much more competitive than the usual CT fellowship
*Research in a surgical subspecialty isn't a bad thing when applying for G Surg
*Are you asking if 3 prelim years will count towards obtaining an integrated CT spot? Or are you looking to do 3 categorical years and then just leave the program?

 

[Winged Scapula]

*Integrated CT residencies/fellowships are still quite rare and much more competitive than the usual CT fellowship

Agreed. It would likely be much more difficult for the IMG.

*Research in a surgical subspecialty isn't a bad thing when applying for G Surg

Agreed. Your research doesn't need to be in CT Surgery; after all, general surgery is the basis for CTS.

*Are you asking if 3 prelim years will count towards obtaining an integrated CT spot? Or are you looking to do 3 categorical years and then just leave the program?

If you follow the link the OP provided, you can see that it talks about the requirements for getting into a *thoracic* fellowship is 3 years of general surgery; therefore, I assume he/she was asking if this was feasible. I'm not sure how many of these thoracic programs there are and how competitive they are.

 

[Target55]

Yes this is what I mint winged scapula, I means, according to what this website says, it is possible to get in CT residency after passing a 3 years of General Surgery after fulfilling special training requirements. I just wished to know if this is opened at all places or not ?.

So you both agree that it is ok and considered a strong addition to my CV to have a Research fellowship in CT if I am applying to GS & or integrated CT ?. (or you prefer to search for another type of research that include one of the subjects of GS. example: GIT , breast.....

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yes this is what I mint winged scapula, I means, according to what this website says, it is possible to get in CT residency after passing a 3 years of General Surgery after fulfilling special training requirements. I just wished to know if this is opened at all places or not ?.

It is certainly NOT open at all places. Most CT fellowships require that you be board eligible in general surgery which requires completion, in good standing, with required number of cases, of a full general surgery residency. This is what the vast majority require (as a matter of fact, I was not aware that there were any, except the integrated which only had 3 years of general surgery).

So you both agree that it is ok and considered a strong addition to my CV to have a Research fellowship in CT if I am applying to GS & or integrated CT ?. (or you prefer to search for another type of research that include one of the subjects of GS. example: GIT , breast.....

I don't think either of us said that it was a "strong addition" to your CV to have a research fellowship. These are not very competitive, but its better than sitting on your mum's couch eating granola. What we meant is that it doesn't matter to Gen Surg programs if your research is in CT, GI, Surg Onc, etc. Don't forget, CT IS a subject of general surgery; we all rotate on it during residency and it is the basis for good training in CTS.

 

[SocialistMD]

Honestly, I would not bet the farm on getting the integrated CT spot and would instead focus on getting a categorical general surgery spot. This is advice I would give any US medical grad and it especially applies to any international medical grad. Taking the research position will help to get you in the US system and maybe a letter from a US surgeon, but that is hardly enough to get the highly coveted integrated CT spots (of which there are barely a handful). If you want to apply to them, fine, but I would not mention them at all on your general surgery applications, and I would come to terms with the fact now that you are more than likely going to be doing the conventional 5+2 path to CT surgery (which, as it stands now, isn't going to be that difficult of a path). Again, I'm not trying to be negative, but integrated spots in any surgical subspecialty are so incredibly difficult to obtain. As an international grad, you have an even steeper (if not completely vertical) mountain to climb.

 

[Target55]

thank you very much for your replies...... I wish to know what is Dr Blade's opinion about what is written in item No. 3 under Board Certification in the following website:
http://www.womensurgeons.org/education/CDR/thoracic.htm

 

[deleted77919]

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[Blade28]

Agree with the above.

 

[Medicine16]

Hey all, quick question for everyone - so it's been pretty well established that research is not as essential for general surgery as it is for fields like ortho, plastics, neurosurgery, etc, although it certainly enhances the applicant's credentials, especially for academic programs.

The question I have is - how does it compare to other factors, like grades, step scores, LORs, etc. when applying to surgery residency programs? If a student has several publications but below average grades (3rd-4th quartile)/average step score, how does it balance out when applying to general surgery programs? Or are grades/board scores in essence a "prerequisite", and research experience/publications simply icing on the cake?

I'm curious to know people's opinions, first because I think that this would probably be considered a relatively rare scenario, and second because I keep hearing that general surgery "isn't that competitive to get into" but that it's also "getting more competitive every year". Thanks everyone. 👍

 

[filter07]

This answer won't make you feel any better, but basically, the answer is that there is no magic formula for how research fits in with your other factors. Every institution handles things differently and weighs certain factors differently. At my institution it is one of many factors that contribute to your overall "score". Lots of little things will get you a high or low score, not the least of which is whether the interviewer thought you'd be a "good fit" whatever that means. If he/she has a positive impression of you, he/she will score all your subsections higher, and vice versa. Highly variable... and not objective at all. I will also add that the score doesn't really guarantee a certain spot on the rank list either; people get moved up and down based on whatever the committee deems important at that particular moment. And then the order gets shuffled again a few weeks/months later, before the rank list deadline. Bottom line is that this is all subjective and changes often. Research at my institution is one of those things that we look for, and we tend to rank people with a research background higher, but at the same time, if we have an applicant we really like that doesn't have research, we might still rank that applicant highly also. Long story short, I don't know how it compares, even at my own institution, where I've sat in on ranking meetings.

 

[Buzz Me]

The question I have is - how does it compare to other factors, like grades, step scores, LORs, etc. when applying to surgery residency programs? If a student has several publications but below average grades (3rd-4th quartile)/average step score, how does it balance out when applying to general surgery programs? Or are grades/board scores in essence a "prerequisite", and research experience/publications simply icing on the cake?

If you're asking if research will make up for poor USMLE scores and/or poor letters and grades, then your answer is no.

 

[Medicine16]

This answer won't make you feel any better, but basically, the answer is that there is no magic formula for how research fits in with your other factors. Every institution handles things differently and weighs certain factors differently. At my institution it is one of many factors that contribute to your overall "score". Lots of little things will get you a high or low score, not the least of which is whether the interviewer thought you'd be a "good fit" whatever that means. If he/she has a positive impression of you, he/she will score all your subsections higher, and vice versa. Highly variable... and not objective at all. I will also add that the score doesn't really guarantee a certain spot on the rank list either; people get moved up and down based on whatever the committee deems important at that particular moment. And then the order gets shuffled again a few weeks/months later, before the rank list deadline. Bottom line is that this is all subjective and changes often. Research at my institution is one of those things that we look for, and we tend to rank people with a research background higher, but at the same time, if we have an applicant we really like that doesn't have research, we might still rank that applicant highly also. Long story short, I don't know how it compares, even at my own institution, where I've sat in on ranking meetings.

Cool, thanks for the detailed response. So basically what I'm taking away is that applying to residency is very similar to the whole GPA/MCAT/interview formula for medical school - research is nice, but it does not even come close to what grades and Step 1 scores mean.

That kind of makes me wonder though - why do so many medical students put so much time into research, particularly between 1st and 2nd years of medical school? They could utilize that time to better study for Step 1/school material, which seems like it would be a much better use of time considering how much more important grades and USMLE scores are in the residency application process compared to research. And then maybe get involved in some clinical research (case studies, etc.) during rotations.

 

[DrNick Riviera]

reread BuzzMe's comment....research wont make up for POOR grades/Steps. The issue is that atleast for the competitive residency spots, which most of them are now, EVERYONE has great board scores and grades. Of course there are gradations, but in order to stand out from the crowd (in a good way), you need something special. Many med students use research and publication record for this purpose. You should view it as supplemental to your app, not supplantive (?). Also, dont bother doing research if you have no interest in it or if it is only to improve your CV. That is a pretty clear red flag.

 

[filter07]

To explain why people do research during 1st/2nd year:

In my limited experience, the ones with research tend to be the ones with high scores already. They are motivated people to begin with - who else would take such a hectic study schedule and voluntarily add research time to it? So we don't seem to have to choose between research vs scores, b/c they go hand in hand most times.

 

[Buzz Me]

reread BuzzMe's comment....research wont make up for POOR grades/Steps. The issue is that atleast for the competitive residency spots, which most of them are now, EVERYONE has great board scores and grades.

Exactly. Research (publications and presentations) help you stand out from the other high-Step 1-scoring applicants. If you're applying to something competitive like Derm or Plastics, you can be damn sure everyone's got high scores.

 

[Medicine16]

To explain why people do research during 1st/2nd year:

In my limited experience, the ones with research tend to be the ones with high scores already. They are motivated people to begin with - who else would take such a hectic study schedule and voluntarily add research time to it? So we don't seem to have to choose between research vs scores, b/c they go hand in hand most times.

Yeah, that's true. So if you're a a student in between first and second years of medical school (like me), it would probably make sense to not focus on research as much this summer and focus on Step 1 instead, if grades are lacking? Thanks.

Exactly. Research (publications and presentations) help you stand out from the other high-Step 1-scoring applicants. If you're applying to something competitive like Derm or Plastics, you can be damn sure everyone's got high scores.

Yeah, I was referring more to for general surgery...obviously there are many community-based general surgery programs which are miles away in terms of competitiveness from plastics and dermatology programs, and if you also consider the fact that many students (referring to the average) who match into general surgery come from the middle quartiles of the class with decent but not killer average step 1 scores (see NRMP data), my question was why it wouldn't be a good idea those students to focus more on grades/Step scores between 1st and 2nd years of medical school, as opposed to research. Or maybe some of them do do that, I don't know, that's why I was wondering. Just curious since the medical students from my class even remotely interested in surgery, or any field that isn't primary care for that matter, are all doing research, and it seems like many of them would benefit from focusing on Step 1 this summer and holding off on research until 3rd year rotations.