Research is NOT veterinary experience

[CurrySpice]

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according to the newest VMCAS 🙁

I didn't read the fine print of previous versions, but Tufts told me to list anything even somewhat related to vet med.

2011 version: What does VMCAS consider a “Health Professional”? Veterinary schools define “Health Professionals” as veterinarians, & vet-techs. Experience (and research) that are supervised by a Dr. (ie PhD in Biology) is considered employment experience. Research involving animals is considered animal experience.

I'm trying to figure out whether I can squeeze my research in somewhere else... We didn't have live animal models and I wasn't paid...

🙁

 

[LetItSnow]

2011 version: What does VMCAS consider a “Health Professional”? Veterinary schools define “Health Professionals” as veterinarians, & vet-techs.

Well, at least they clarified what a health professional is.... Since we were just debating it in a different thread. I don't remember them being explicit before; nice to see it's improving.

 

[nyanko]

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[NStarz]

Ummm... I think I'm going to play ignorant and list it under vet experience anyways. They could always reclassify it if they so desire, and honestly, that is one of my biggest selling points as my other vet exp hours are low (only about 400 right now).

 

[nyanko]

.

 

[LetItSnow]

Ummm... I think I'm going to play ignorant and list it under vet experience anyways. They could always reclassify it if they so desire, and honestly, that is one of my biggest selling points as my other vet exp hours are low (only about 400 right now).

Eh... I got in with around 400. I wouldn't get too dismayed by the peeps with a bajillion hours.

@nyanko: clearly you have to split dvm/ph.d hours 50/50 into each category. 😉

 

[twelvetigers]

Yeah, and my research was at the vet school, under one DVM/PhD and another PhD (who teaches the parasit course at the vet school)... and it involved tick borne disease. How is that *not* veterinary experience?

Where's VMCAS001 or whatever when ya need 'em? Come tell us why you guys made this change!

 

[NStarz]

Yeah, I think they'd honestly be hard-pressed to tell me that my research, some of which involved tech skills (setting IV catheters in kittens, helping with necropsies on cats, monitoring anesthesia for electroretinograms, treating cats/kittens, etc), was not veterinary experience because my PI had a Ph.D. only. Research is a collaborative effort and I worked with DVMs on all of those projects, but wouldn't list them as my primary "supervisor." It's just not always that black and white.

Under those rules, one of my animal experiences, my lab animal husbandry job, would be veterinary experience because it was supervised by a vet tech. Yeah, my research was definitely more veterinary oriented than that was...

Additionally, I would say that research is more important/relevant to the veterinary profession that cleaning cages. *sigh*

 

[breenie]

Lame. My PI was a DVM, and all of our grad students that I worked with were DVMs or foreign veterinarians. Only our lab manager lacked some form of a veterinary degree. Our research was pretty clearly... veterinary.

Whatevz, VMCAS.

 

[LetItSnow]

@breenie and @tt:

I read that statement such that if you had research experience involving animals that was supervised by a DVM, you'd still put that under veterinary experience. (Not that it matters for you two, of course, but....)

I think that last statement about research involving animals is meant to clarify the sentence in front of it; i.e. non-animal research under a PhD is "employment experience" and animal research under a PhD is "animal experience." But animal research under a health professional (as they're defining it) would still be veterinary experience.

It's clearly open for interpretation. Sigh. 😕

 

[CurrySpice]

@breenie and @tt:

I read that statement such that if you had research experience involving animals that was supervised by a DVM, you'd still put that under veterinary experience. (Not that it matters for you two, of course, but....)

I think that last statement about research involving animals is meant to clarify the sentence in front of it; i.e. non-animal research under a PhD is "employment experience" and animal research under a PhD is "animal experience." But animal research under a health professional (as they're defining it) would still be veterinary experience.

It's clearly open for interpretation. Sigh. 😕

Unfortunately my bioinformatics project on reptile genetics supervised by a PhD is very clearly excluded.... 🙁

I might sneak my ecology project (supervised by the same PhD) into the honors section though b/c we were invited to present at a semi-prestigious conference.

 

[Bacci]

I agree with nyanko. My PI 'only' has a PhD but the research I am involved in includes surgeries, placing IV and urinary catheters, taking samples for histology, urinalysis, etc. How is that NOT vet experience?

I absolutely disagree with this new categorization.

 

[LetItSnow]

I might sneak my ecology project (supervised by the same PhD) into the honors section though b/c we were invited to present at a semi-prestigious conference.

Put it in both employment/animal (whichever makes sense) and the honors section!

In the former you can detail your hours, responsibilities, what you learned... whatever you feel is important. In the latter, you can note that you were invited to present at a prestigious conference. Since the honors section doesn't ask for 'hours' or anything, you aren't scamming the system by double-dipping or anything.

 

[pooter]

Yeah, if they won't let us put research under vet experience, they need to at least make it its own category. My research is not even remotely similar to flipping burgers or washing dishes. And what about those of us doing student research at small colleges without big grants? My grant covered materials and nothing else, so it wasn't a paid experience. Under the new rules, should I have demoted it all the way to "community activity"?

 

[Niri]

And what about those of us doing student research at small colleges without big grants? My grant covered materials and nothing else, so it wasn't a paid experience. Under the new rules, should I have demoted it all the way to "community activity"?

Even at my *bigg* university, I've never gotten paid by my PI for my research work. I did get some funding from the program I applied through (1-time $500 stipend), but that was one semester out of five!

Yeah, I don't see how it's employment if I'm not employed. Didn't I also hear something that some schools really want to see research experience? Totally needs its own category..

 

[Trilt]

I would also check the specific schools you apply to - I know that NCSU specifically states what they call "veterinary experience," stating:

The work can be either paid or voluntary and must be completed under the supervision of a veterinarian (or PhD scientist if scientific research).

 

[LetItSnow]

I would also check the specific schools you apply to - I know that NCSU specifically states what they call "veterinary experience," stating:

I think this all goes back to: Use your best, honest judgment and it will all work out.

There's variation between schools.... VMCAS's own explanation is open to interpretation.... I don't think anyone can give you grief if you made a reasonable, rational attempt to classify something and the school believes it ought to count differently.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

So confusing I agree as veterinary experience is not research experience when applying to PhD program in sciences (from experience). Also veterinary experience is not healthcare experience when applying for human healthcare educational programs like being a PA when veterinarians leave the profession(a colleague's experience). Also in 2009 I listened at the AVMA convention a presentation on non practice avenues, the presenter had gotten a MPH from a human medical school where her DVM degree was not understood as being healthcare related. The presenter also noted that her DVM had not helped her much in gaining employment in public health agencies. So if it truly is all ONE MEDICINE where DVMs are going to be working in multiple fields outside of clinical practice, why does they type of experience really matter in the first place?

I give permission to use this argument with the VMCAS which is part of the AAVMC that is headed by Marguerite Pappanaiou who is a big ONE MEDICINE advocate and only practiced 2 years after receiving her DVM in the early 1970s. Ask to talk to her to to see if she can clear it up.

 

[jmo1012]

Yeah, I don't see how it's employment if I'm not employed. Didn't I also hear something that some schools really want to see research experience? Totally needs its own category..

VMRCVM is huge on applicants having research experience. So much so that its a points category on it's own (getting full credit is really hard though). Funny enough though, you get 60 characters on the supplemental to describe your research experience/duties (for all who haven't applied yet, get ready to HATE the words "character count," 60 characters is pretty much 1/2 a sentence!)

 

[RadRadTerp]

VMRCVM is huge on applicants having research experience. So much so that its a points category on it's own (getting full credit is really hard though). Funny enough though, you get 60 characters on the supplemental to describe your research experience/duties (for all who haven't applied yet, get ready to HATE the words "character count," 60 characters is pretty much 1/2 a sentence!)

Yep. Having done a few years at NIH and getting published while in undergrad/post-bac definitely helped me out on that part of the application. I do think it is valid for vet schools to look for specific, clinical veterinary experience and not just animal research. That's why after doing research for so long I went ahead and got jobs/internships at clincs, hospitals, and shelters with a DVM on duty to supervise. Being familiar with that aspect of veterinary medicine before you start school is helpful in absorbing some material during the program more rapidly.

 

[Daktari Tumbili]

Don't freak out about how your experiences are classified (veterinary or animal). The admissions commitees are going to look at the quality of the experience in the end. I only had 400 total veterinary experiences (SA clinic) on my application and was accepted. But I had 4000+ hours under Animal Experience that were all in research. Use the space you are allotted to explain each experience wisely. I specifically listed my skills and duties as related to vet med so they knew my animal experience was veterinary related. (Eg. Conducted research under DVM, performed technical skills like IV, SubQ, blood collection, etc. on these species...)

Another thing I did was divided some of my research experiences up between veterinary and animal. Eg. As an animal technician my daily duties were more along the lines of husbandry and things like giving injections or blood collection for research purposes so it was listed as Animal Experience. However, there were days in the same job when I worked with and assisted the lab animal vet so I put those few hours as a separate experience under Veterinary Experience.

 

[that redhead]

My belief is that there should be three categories: veterinary experience in which the person worked directly with a veterinarian; animal experience where the person worked with animals but NOT under a veterinarian; research, where the person participated in SOME type of research. I think especially with the way science is now with research continually growing and impacting science/the world as we understand it, research deserves its own category.

 

[heylodeb]

My belief is that there should be three categories: veterinary experience in which the person worked directly with a veterinarian; animal experience where the person worked with animals but NOT under a veterinarian; research, where the person participated in SOME type of research. I think especially with the way science is now with research continually growing and impacting science/the world as we understand it, research deserves its own category.

I agree with you. I actually chose not to put my research experience under veterinary experience even though it was done with a veterinary genetics laboratory. Absolutely none of my experience taught me anything about the vet field. We were doing DNA analysis from scat and my PI was a Ph.D but not a DVM. I didn't feel it was really appropriate to pad my vet hours with research hours since it wasn't veterinary related.

 

[bre8162]

I put my research experience under vet experience. I did a lot of work with mice and a lot of surgeries involving anesthetics. I sure was not passing that up. I feel like a lot of lines are not well defined for where stuff can go and I just went about it the way I thought was best. Seemed to work...

 

[twelvetigers]

I put my research experience under vet experience. I did a lot of work with mice and a lot of surgeries involving anesthetics. I sure was not passing that up. I feel like a lot of lines are not well defined for where stuff can go and I just went about it the way I thought was best. Seemed to work...

Last year's instructions were different than what curryspice posted above. They have changed the directions.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Last year's instructions were different than what curryspice posted above. They have changed the directions.

Yeah, for this year's applicants it might be best to actually follow the VMCAS guidelines IMO. I'm sure the vet schools will be aware of the change and will evaluate your experience accordingly. If you had experience in research that is very relevant to vet med regardless of whether it's classified as "vet" or "work" experience, I'm sure adcoms will give you the same credit for it. I'm not sure I'd personally risk seeming like someone who can't read directions or ignores them for my own perceived gain...

Research is so broad and nebulous anyway, that each experience just has to be evaluated individually. I don't see how someone who just filled pipets, made buffers, and ran gels for a postdoc in a lab that is technically under a vet PI supervision (vet experience), would be seen more favorably than someone who authored a major paper in cancer research under a PhD (work experience).

 

[VMCAS001]

Yeah, for this year's applicants it might be best to actually follow the VMCAS guidelines IMO. I'm sure the vet schools will be aware of the change and will evaluate your experience accordingly. If you had experience in research that is very relevant to vet med regardless of whether it's classified as "vet" or "work" experience, I'm sure adcoms will give you the same credit for it. I'm not sure I'd personally risk seeming like someone who can't read directions or ignores them for my own perceived gain...

Research is so broad and nebulous anyway, that each experience just has to be evaluated individually. I don't see how someone who just filled pipets, made buffers, and ran gels for a postdoc in a lab that is technically under a vet PI supervision (vet experience), would be seen more favorably than someone who authored a major paper in cancer research under a PhD (work experience).

Hey all... interesting thread here. Before defining "health professional" we made a series of calls to some of the larger veterinary schools to ask them what their definition was. To our surprise, they said that a Dr. of Biology is *not* a health professional, despite the fact that they may be teaching a "health related" course.

It is directly due to the replies we received from the schools that we added this definition to the application.

My advise to you would be to follow the directions as best you can, and if you feel the classification is *that* fuzzy, please put a short line in your explanation statement to clarify your selection.

Hope this helps a little...

 

[equitate]

This is an interesting discussion. When I applied this past cycle, I included my research experience under Veterinary Experience. Yes, I did some labmonkey work like ELISAS, plating, making broth, etc., but the majority of my time was spent doing chicken necropsies and trimming the resulting tissues for histology. Furthermore, the necropsies were in the presence of a DVM/PhD and the rest of it was all very closely supervised by her and we met frequently to discuss the tissues and lesions, etc.. So since the vast majority was hands-on veterinary pathology with a DVM/PhD, I feel pretty comfortable putting it under the Veterinary Experience category (and I'll do the same thing if it turns out I have to apply again in the fall).

 

[labanimaltech]

according to the newest VMCAS 🙁

I didn't read the fine print of previous versions, but Tufts told me to list anything even somewhat related to vet med.

2011 version: What does VMCAS consider a “Health Professional”? Veterinary schools define “Health Professionals” as veterinarians, & vet-techs. Experience (and research) that are supervised by a Dr. (ie PhD in Biology) is considered employment experience. Research involving animals is considered animal experience.

I'm trying to figure out whether I can squeeze my research in somewhere else... We didn't have live animal models and I wasn't paid...

🙁

Okay but what about research experience that was with animals AND under the supervision of a PhD? I didn't get paid... sooo I just don't see why it should be under employment... and anyways my research project was supervised by a professor, but I did the work in the humane societies and vet clinics...so is it vet experience?

 

[Minnerbelle]

Okay but what about research experience that was with animals AND under the supervision of a PhD? I didn't get paid... sooo I just don't see why it should be under employment... and anyways my research project was supervised by a professor, but I did the work in the humane societies and vet clinics...so is it vet experience?

Sounds like animal experience according to this new categorization... unless maybe your research mentor was a PhD but your research involved observing/assisting veterinarians?

 

[heylodeb]

Sounds like animal experience according to this new categorization... unless maybe your research mentor was a PhD but your research involved observing/assisting veterinarians?

agreed. sound slike animal experience according to the new rules.

It would be nice for their to be a "research" tab. Or is there and I've just blocked out any and all memories of the VMCAS?