Research PI Refuses to Write LOR

[where am i]

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I worked in a lab for a year and the first semester I worked there everything was fine and dandy. I was originally only supposed to do it for a summer, but he invited me back to his lab in the fall because I worked in his lab from sunup to sundown. The fall semester started back up and i don't want to go into details but three things happened: I spent 2 months trying to get a single reaction to work that never did, i got 2 part-time jobs, and I stopped showing up to his lab for the last 2 or 3 months because a family member was sick in a hospital and they ended up dying. He told me I could come back in the Spring so I did to redeem myself, but between classes and the job I was working it was impossible. I still tried, but he ended up telling in the end that although I made progress, he felt as though I should have done more. I went into his office to ask for a LOR today and he straight up said no. The vet school I'm applying to counts research hours as experience, but that means nothing without a LOR. I'm applying for this cycle and i dunno what to do.

 

[Staffie]

What do you mean you don't know what to do? You asked for a LOR and he refused. It's not like you're going to convince him to write you one anyway. In fact, absolutely do not try to push him to write you one as it would likely be negative and would hurt your application.

Be thankful that he said he won't write one. If he had said sure, he probably would have written you a damaging letter.

Move on and try to get letters from other people if you still need some. Good luck!

 

[where am i]

What do you mean you don't know what to do? You asked for a LOR and he refused. It's not like you're going to convince him to write you one anyway. In fact, absolutely do not try to push him to write you one as it would likely be negative and would hurt your application.

Be thankful that he said he won't write one. If he had said sure, he probably would have written you a damaging letter.

Move on and try to get letters from other people if you still need some. Good luck!

I was under the impression that most people who do research, especially for extended amounts of time, are expected to get an LOR from their PI. I've talked to other people and they said it would send up red flags if I claimed to have research experience, yet none of my LOR's came from my PI.

 

[SkiOtter]

You didn’t show up for months and you REALLY expect your research PI to write you a letter??? Really??? I’m sorry, but I’m with your PI on this one.
I understand that you had a family member that was sick, but it’s no different than one of your part-time jobs. You still showed up to those, right? You essentially had three part time jobs and only showed up to two of them. For two semesters.
I agree with staffie, at least he said no instead of saying yes and writing a bad letter. Move on from this, find more experience to put on your app, and get great letters from those people.

 

[where am i]

You didn’t show up for months and you REALLY expect your research PI to write you a letter??? Really??? I’m sorry, but I’m with your PI on this one.
I understand that you had a family member that was sick, but it’s no different than one of your part-time jobs. You still showed up to those, right? You essentially had three part time jobs and only showed up to two of them. For two semesters.
I agree with staffie, at least he said no instead of saying yes and writing a bad letter. Move on from this, find more experience to put on your app, and get great letters from those people.

The last few months i didn't show up to any of my classes or jobs. I stayed with my mom in the hospital who was in a different state. I drove 8 hours back to school only when I had exams and for finals. Also, I only didn't show up for 2 months at the end of the fall semester. I went to every group meeting, lab cleanup, presentation, etc, on top of the 15+ hours a week i spent in lab trying to figure stuff out in the spring second semester. I just had difficulties with the research.

 

[SkiOtter]

The last few months i didn't show up to any of my classes or jobs. I stayed with my mom in the hospital who was in a different state. I drove 8 hours back to school only when I had exams and for finals. Also, I only didn't show up for 2 months and the end of that one semester. I went to every group meeting, lab cleanup, presentation etc. in the spring second semester, i just had difficulties with the research.

You literally said spring semester between classes and work, doing research was impossible. That certainly sounds like not showing up. Research, whether paid or not, is another job. You need to show up when you’re supposed to show up and if your PI doesn’t tell you specific times when to show up, you need to discuss with them when to be there. They gave you a second chance for spring semester because they knew you had been going through a rough time. And then you blew it.
Having the reactions not work isn’t always something that can be helped when you’re researching. Did you ask for help when it didn’t? Or did you just keep trying the same thing? Did you start showing up less and less second semester after it wouldn’t work? Or did you just ghost because you had another job and put too much on your plate.
If you don’t show up, how can you expect that someone will respect you enough to write you a LOR when you didn’t respect them and their time enough to show up to help with research?

 

[where am i]

You literally said spring semester between classes and work, doing research was impossible. That certainly sounds like not showing up. Research, whether paid or not, is another job. You need to show up when you’re supposed to show up and if your PI doesn’t tell you specific times when to show up, you need to discuss with them when to be there. They gave you a second chance for spring semester because they knew you had been going through a rough time. And then you blew it.
Having the reactions not work isn’t always something that can be helped when you’re researching. Did you ask for help when it didn’t? Or did you just keep trying the same thing? Did you start showing up less and less second semester after it wouldn’t work? Or did you just ghost because you had another job and put too much on your plate.
If you don’t show up, how can you expect that someone will respect you enough to write you a LOR when you didn’t respect them and their time enough to show up to help with research?

bruh are you even reading what I'm posting? I said it was impossible because of the fact that I couldn't get the reaction that he wanted to work working. i didn't blow it from lack of effort as i just clearly said that I was there the spring semester going to every meeting and spending 15+ hours a week in lab... I asked everyone I knew for help, I even became best friends with the chemistry stock room manager and the quantitative analysis lab director.

Did you ask for help?
yes

Or did you just keep trying the same thing?
No.

Did you start showing up less and less second semester after it wouldn’t work?
No.

Or did you just ghost because you had another job and put too much on your plate.
No.

The only time i didn't show up was when i was in a different state at the hospital looking after my mom.

 

[SkiOtter]

bruh are you even reading what I'm posting?

Bruh your edit wasn’t there when I quoted and said nothing about spring semester or 15 hours a week. Calm your tits. When you EDIT THINGS after the fact it doesn’t automatically reload my page.

You’re still not going to get them to write you one. So you may as well give up trying to get one. And if they DO write one it’s going to be a bad letter like staffie and I have already said. Go get more experience for your app, make good relationships, and get good LORs.

 

[where am i]

Bruh your edit wasn’t there when I quoted and said nothing about spring semester or 15 hours a week. Calm your tits. When you EDIT THINGS after the fact it doesn’t automatically reload my page.

You’re still not going to get them to write you one. So you may as well give up trying to get one. And if they DO write one it’s going to be a bad letter like staffie and I have already said. Go get more experience for your app, make good relationships, and get good LORs.

im applying now. this is where the frustration stems.

 

[Nalra095]

im applying now. this is where the frustration stems.

Couldnt you have tried asking him sooner for the LOR? That way you would’ve had more time to look for other references.

How are your other LORs looking? Vet, faculty,etc?

 

[where am i]

Couldnt you have tried asking him sooner for the LOR? That way you would’ve had more time to look for other references.

How are your other LORs looking? Vet, faculty,etc?

I have a vet, he was gonna be my professor, and I'm gonna have to beg someone else for one. We'll see, I just needed to vent.

 

[Nalra095]

I have a vet, he was gonna be my professor, and I'm gonna have to beg someone else for one. We'll see, I just needed to vent.

Honestly I think you should try your best with what options you have right now. Try to secure that LOR from the vet/professor and then maybe also some from your part time job supervisors that you had good relations with. Yeah it sucks to not be able to get a letter from the research PI but the research will still count as experience.

 

[where am i]

Honestly I think you should try your best with what options you have right now. Try to secure that LOR from the vet/professor and then maybe also some from your part time job supervisors that you had good relations with. Yeah it sucks to not be able to get a letter from the research PI but the research will still count as experience.

Yeah, I'm just going to try and get what I can, I was just worried it might throw up some red flags on an application. Thanks man.

 

[Caiter92]

I have a vet, he was gonna be my professor, and I'm gonna have to beg someone else for one. We'll see, I just needed to vent.

If you’re going to have to beg someone for a letter, now two?, it would be best to wait to apply to next cycle. LORs can carry a lot of weight, and you want to make sure all of them are as good as can be.

 

[JaynaAli]

Not having a letter from a PI you're claiming a lot of hours from is a red flag, yes, but that lack is probably not quite as damaging as them writing you a bad letter. I feel like he honestly did you a favor by declining. Do expect to have to explain what happened should you progress to interviews. From what you've said, it's unclear to me how many other letters you have already arranged...if you don't have other people lined up who will write you great ones (especially a DVM), I agree with @Caiter92 that it may be time to consider cutting your losses on this application cycle and waiting a year. LORs are one of the most important parts of your application...if they are weak they certainly won't help you and will more likely actively hurt your chances. It also seems to be getting a bit late in the application cycle to be scrambling and asking all new people...I admit I don't follow the deadlines now that I graduated but doesn't VMCAS close in like a month?

 

[SkiOtter]

It also seems to be getting a bit late in the application cycle to be scrambling and asking all new people...I admit I don't follow the deadlines now that I graduated but doesn't VMCAS close in like a month?

Yes, yes it does. September 15th.

 

[where am i]

Not having a letter from a PI you're claiming a lot of hours from is a red flag, yes, but that lack is probably not quite as damaging as them writing you a bad letter. I feel like he honestly did you a favor by declining. Do expect to have to explain what happened should you progress to interviews. From what you've said, it's unclear to me how many other letters you have already arranged...if you don't have other people lined up who will write you great ones (especially a DVM), I agree with @Caiter92 that it may be time to consider cutting your losses on this application cycle and waiting a year. LORs are one of the most important parts of your application...if they are weak they certainly won't help you and will more likely actively hurt your chances. It also seems to be getting a bit late in the application cycle to be scrambling and asking all new people...I admit I don't follow the deadlines now that I graduated but doesn't VMCAS close in like a month?

I have a DVM, and I was going to ask the head of somewhere I volunteer at for another one, but yeah, I'm probably going to have to beg a random professor for another LOR.

 

[Caiter92]

I have a DVM, and I was going to ask the head of somewhere I volunteer at for another one, but yeah, I'm probably going to have to beg a random professor for another LOR.

It’s really late to be asking for letters, and having to “beg” for a letter doesn’t bode well for it being a strong one.

 

[where am i]

It’s really late to be asking for letters, and having to “beg” for a letter doesn’t bode well for it being a strong one.

i agree

 

[Ashgirl]

I have a DVM, and I was going to ask the head of somewhere I volunteer at for another one, but yeah, I'm probably going to have to beg a random professor for another LOR.

Do you have someone that could write you a strong letter, even if they aren't a professor? (Unless the particular program you are applying to requires one of them to be from a professor?). Getting diverse letters (one dvm, one PI, one professor, etc) is great, but stronger, positive letters are way more important. For example, I never asked a professor or my PI for one because I knew it would never be a great, unique letter. So I asked the old leader of a 4-H club that I took over instead and he wrote me a fabulous letter. Could you ask another vet? Or someone who can speak to your leadership skills?

 

[SkiOtter]

Do you have someone that could write you a strong letter, even if they aren't a professor? (Unless the particular program you are applying to requires one of them to be from a professor?). Getting diverse letters (one dvm, one PI, one professor, etc) is great, but stronger, positive letters are way more important. For example, I never asked a professor or my PI for one because I knew it would never be a great, unique letter. So I asked the old leader of a 4-H club that I took over instead and he wrote me a fabulous letter. Could you ask another vet? Or someone who can speak to your leadership skills?

Even a boss you’ve worked for for a while outside of vetmed could be a good option if they know you well and could write a strong letter

 

[where am i]

Do you have someone that could write you a strong letter, even if they aren't a professor? (Unless the particular program you are applying to requires one of them to be from a professor?). Getting diverse letters (one dvm, one PI, one professor, etc) is great, but stronger, positive letters are way more important. For example, I never asked a professor or my PI for one because I knew it would never be a great, unique letter. So I asked the old leader of a 4-H club that I took over instead and he wrote me a fabulous letter. Could you ask another vet? Or someone who can speak to your leadership skills?

It states I have to have one LOR from a professor for the main school I'm looking at.... I was close with the post-doc in that lab. Can a LOR come from a post-doc?

 

[SkiOtter]

It states I have to have one LOR from a professor for the main school I'm looking at.... I was close with the post-doc in that lab. Can a LOR come from a post-doc?

Are they a professor who had you in class and can talk about your academic abilities

 

[where am i]

Are they a professor who had you in class and can talk about your academic abilities

they're a nice asian lady that i would talk to about how my day was going and stuff when i was stressed out

Actually, I could just ask my favorite stockroom manager or quant lab director now that I think about it

 

[SkiOtter]

Actually, I could just ask my favorite stockroom manager or quant lab director now that I think about it

Better.

A random postdoc you just talked to about your day is more of a friend than a LOR writer.

 

[battie]

Also give them September 10th or earlier as their deadline. Dont take the risk on them flaking.

i agree

With it being so late in the game, heavily consider a gap year over taking subpar letters. I'm not sure what your stats are, but a subpar letter could mean the difference between an acceptance and a wait list spot.

With that in mind, also keep bettering your application even if/after you hit submit. If you need to reapply next cycle, ask your letter writers in April or May so you can avoid these shenanigans.

 

[pp9]

they're a nice asian lady

irrelevant, but anyways...

If VMCAS closes in a month and you still have 2/3 letters up in the air, I have to agree that it may be best to wait until next year to apply. Not only will you be looking foolish and unprofessional for asking busy people to save your a** and write you a letter in a month, but you run the (likely) risk of them sitting down and writing your letter in 10 minutes the night before it's due. I'd take a year and develop professional relationships while adding to your experience.

As for the lab...I would sit down and think whether or not you truly want to stay in that lab for reasons beyond getting a letter. The PI already isn't your biggest fan and I'm certain they know that you're pissy about not getting a letter from them. Ignoring your story about when you did/didn't show up, you still let the lab down and blew off your assignment. It would be hard to come back from that imo.

For future reference, if you're given a project and can't/won't get it done and are unable/choosing not to do your work for months at a time...it is far better to quit or ask for a hiatus of some sort compared to just not showing up.

 

[cdo96]

Do you have someone that could write you a strong letter, even if they aren't a professor? (Unless the particular program you are applying to requires one of them to be from a professor?). Getting diverse letters (one dvm, one PI, one professor, etc) is great, but stronger, positive letters are way more important. For example, I never asked a professor or my PI for one because I knew it would never be a great, unique letter. So I asked the old leader of a 4-H club that I took over instead and he wrote me a fabulous letter. Could you ask another vet? Or someone who can speak to your leadership skills?

I was similar to this! I built my LORs to strengthen my weaker points (lack of vet experience and young age (I had just turned 20).

I asked the vet I’ve known and worked for for years, an Agricultural communications professor I had just had because we developed a great relationship in the semester and she would testify to my academic acuity. The last was actually my HS band director- I had a fantastic relationship with him, he knew me as a student for 7 years, and he’s good friends with my family now (I went to his wedding last month). I knew he would be the best person to write about my maturity, character, dedication, and overall give-em-hell mentality.

I don’t know if I would pick the same ones if I applied (or if it actually even made a difference) but it worked for me

 

[Minnerbelle]

im applying now. this is where the frustration stems.

Unfortunately this is called life, and it is what it is. It's not always 'fair,' whether you agree with your PI or others who have chimed in here or not. What's done is done, and the ship has sailed.

Yes, it's a red flag to not have a LOR from the PI from a research experience if it's one that you are highlighting on your app as a big significant experience. If you had multiple other more important experiences and you could make it look like you just had too many more important LORs that this one just didn't make the cut, then no one will notice. It would look really weird to make a big point about how interested in research you are, or how much this research impacted you or whatever, and not have a LOR.

If this research experience is a major part of your experiences (as in without it, your app is not strong), then your options are kind of the following.

*Take a gap year or two to gain more experience. I was ink a sort of similar situation, where I did a whole summer of wildlife work and it was so great I took a semester off to do another 7 months. Well things crapped out, and I left after 5 months (it was more their problem than mine, but it still sucked). I could still get LORs from there, but I felt like this was supposed to be a big part of my apps and it fell flat and I didn't want that. So I committed 2 years to biomedical research at a research powerhouse institution to get a glowing LOR from an important person while also running a cat rescue to build leadership experience. Did I "waste 2 yrs"? Maybe. But applying when you're not ready with the idea that you can then move on wastes a lot of time too IMO. By the time you give up after holding out hope and waiting for rejections and look for something else to really bolster your app during the gap year, you've wasted a year. Other people may see it differently. I ended up with my pick of vet schools and the experience made me competitive with scholarships.

*Having a postdoc or another non-PI faculty researcher in the lab write a LOR for you if you have one rooting for you and thinks it's sad the PI won't write you one (this is a desperate move, but if you really need one from this particular lab...). I would avoid one from a grad student or lab manager... If everyone kind of agrees with your PI, and you're that one student everyone kind of shrugs and shakes their heads when they think of you, don't do it. Make sure to explain the situation and ask if they can honestly write you a great LOR. Do NOT beg because your mean PI refuses to do so and they should feel bad for you because you had extenuating circumstances.

*Dont make excuses, and don't say anything about not getting a LOR or talk about your PI. But incorporate that you were not able to do your best in school and that your research experience suffered and that you were not able to commit as you would have liked to because of extenuating circumstances with your family. Even here, write what you learned from it if you really did crumble from the experience, or if you were resilient and the noncommiyment to extracurriculars were because you were trying to still maintain your academics then highlight that as a strength. Family/life issues often become more common as you get older and many people in vet school are affected, so if you can, you don't want to just blame it as justification for doing poorly and do nothing else.

 

[supershorty]

Take another year before you apply, and start getting your ducks in a row NOW for letters of rec for next year. Like @Minnerbelle , I took 2 years off after finishing undergrad to work in biomed research, which ultimately changed the course of my career. A year or 2, or even 3, isn't a big deal. You'd rather be a competitive applicant than waste your money applying when you aren't going to have solid LORs.

Did you just stop showing up to this research job, or did you at least let your supervisor (be it grad student, postdoc, or PI) know that your life was in shambles? Because if it's the first, that's super uncool and you need to make sure you never do something like that again - in any job. A big part of research is failure, not being able to get something to work is normal, but if you have a situation that prevents you from coming in, you need to communicate that. It's part of being professional.

 

[Vet2022-20224]

If from the start of summer-end of spring you only missed two months because your MOM was dying (Im sorry btw 🙁) then that PI is a jerk. I understand what the other people are saying, but if you were clear about having to take leave for that reason and tried your hardest the following semester, then that really sucks. Like the others said, I would just move on. Prove yourself somewhere else and make sure they have a good heart or something? I was once taking a summer class at a community college and I had to be absent for my brothers funeral and my mom's surgery and had to provide PROOF just for missing class even though I was doing good in exams. If your situation is how im thinking it is, that is unfortunate, but it happens. Hope you had goodluck moving forward! (Just noticed this was an old post LOL)

 

[SkiOtter]

that PI is a jerk.

No one is required to write you a letter of recommendation if they don’t feel they are able to write a strong positive one. If someone tells you no, you should be thankful that they aren’t just going to write you a ****ty or bland one instead. OP got a second chance after their family member died to come back spring semester. If someone gives you a second chance and they don’t feel you've put in enough effort to warrant a LOR, they’re not a jerk for refusing to write you a letter. If someone isn’t able to speak to your professional capabilities, they shouldn’t be the one writing your letter and you should just be glad they told you no instead of getting a crappy letter.

 

[ajs513]

If from the start of summer-end of spring you only missed two months because your MOM was dying (Im sorry btw 🙁) then that PI is a jerk. I understand what the other people are saying, but if you were clear about having to take leave for that reason and tried your hardest the following semester, then that really sucks. Like the others said, I would just move on. Prove yourself somewhere else and make sure they have a good heart or something? I was once taking a summer class at a community college and I had to be absent for my brothers funeral and my mom's surgery and had to provide PROOF just for missing class even though I was doing good in exams. If your situation is how im thinking it is, that is unfortunate, but it happens. Hope you had goodluck moving forward! (Just noticed this was an old post LOL)

I think you’re missing the point of view of the PI. Like Ski said, this is a job like anything else. It’s entirely possible that OP didn’t properly communicate what would be happening as far as how often they’d miss lab, when they’d be back, etc. That PI is still trying to complete their research and needs a research assistant to do it. In the real world, you need to properly communicate even when bad things are happening in your life. If OP had told them that they were going to out for a couple months because their mom was dying, then the PI would be a jerk for thinking OP was being irresponsible. But if OP was just calling out Day after day, jerking the PI around with different expectations of when they’d be back and making it difficult to continue with the research project, then that’s on OP. And at the end of it all, OP came back to the lab in the Spring semester and gave subpar performance due to classes and other jobs. That’s definitely unacceptable. It’s obvious that they were unable to handle the workload they were putting themselves through, but it sounds like that wasn’t properly communicated to the PI. They were just taking the fake it til you make it approach and they didn’t make it. The PI already has every right to say they don’t want to write a LOR if they don’t think it’ll be helpful, but this PI definitely wouldn’t be able to write a good LOR. What would they say? “OP was going through a tough time, didn’t come in for a few months, came back, and didn’t perform up to the mark. It’s obvious they weren’t able to handle the workload and stress appropriately. They would be an excellent candidate for vet school.”

And yea, this has already been fleshed out last year. But what I’m saying is this is likely the point of view of the PI, and the letter would only reflect that OP was unable to handle stress and a high workload.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

No one is required to write you a letter of recommendation if they don’t feel they are able to write a strong positive one. If someone tells you no, you should be thankful that they aren’t just going to write you a ****ty or bland one instead. OP got a second chance after their family member died to come back spring semester. If someone gives you a second chance and they don’t feel you've put in enough effort to warrant a LOR, they’re not a jerk for refusing to write you a letter. If someone isn’t able to speak to your professional capabilities, they shouldn’t be the one writing your letter and you should just be glad they told you no instead of getting a crappy letter.

This would be my issue if I were a PI as well.

I completely understand needing to take time off for family issues. But if I invite you back, and you accept but then find it "impossible" to work because you are devoting attention to another job that you have freely chosen to do (a job other than my lab, which is a job itself) I would be a little miffed to say the least. I always tell students that their academics have to come first, but if you agree to come back and then purposefully overload yourself with both academics and a second job, and then don't make progress.....I'm not going to be inclined to write you a strong letter.

Think of it this way. A vet clinic gives you the time off for your family and then invites you back. You agree. They are now counting on you to honor that commitment. They stuck their necks out for you are are volunteering their own time, effort, training, and resources to help you out. They're gonna be a little pissed if you find it impossible to work for them because you voluntarily took on another job at Panera or whatever on top of all your classes.

Contrary to what many students believe, you actually do require extra time and resources to train and monitor. Sometimes you are "negative help". Having students always slowed me down (even though I liked them and wanted to help them learn and succeed) and I had to invest in them. I had to plan my day around when they would come in, have stuff ready for them to do, etc. If they come in sporadically or unprepared due to other obligations, my own preparation was for nothing and a big waste of my time.

They don't feel prioritized - so why should they prioritize you? There's nothing jerkish about it.

 

[supershorty]

No one is required to write you a letter of recommendation if they don’t feel they are able to write a strong positive one. If someone tells you no, you should be thankful that they aren’t just going to write you a ****ty or bland one instead. OP got a second chance after their family member died to come back spring semester. If someone gives you a second chance and they don’t feel you've put in enough effort to warrant a LOR, they’re not a jerk for refusing to write you a letter. If someone isn’t able to speak to your professional capabilities, they shouldn’t be the one writing your letter and you should just be glad they told you no instead of getting a crappy letter.

Also, 2 months is a really long time to miss. It's an extremely unfortunate situation, and I feel for the OP, but you have to be professional in your communications and in doing your job. Unfortunately, the world doesn't stop turning whether you experience a major loss or not, and you're expected to still carry out your responsibilities. It's not fair to the other people in the lab to make them cover for someone beyond a reasonable time frame.

I'd just be glad that the PI declined to write a letter, rather than writing a negative one.

 

[Trilt]

I don't necessarily agree that not having the strongest of letters means you can't apply, though. I personally knew one of my three letters was just OK, but had two others who loved me and just applied to my IS my first round not really expecting to get in.

I got in, but even if I hadn't, the experience of writing the supp essays, could have gotten feedback on my app, etc, is hardly a waste.

 

[Vet2022-20224]

Yes, I understand what everyone was/is saying. It was my understanding that he did work well the following semester, if he did not then obviously I’m with the PI. If he did work extremely well the following semester and was still told no then that is unfortunate, I’m sure we can all agree. Also, by “work” is it paid or volunteer? Because wouldn’t that make a small difference, if it’s volunteer then he should get a bit of a slack as opposed to paid work. If it’s paid then yes 2 months is a lot, but if he wants to spend the dying months with his mom well then..I’m sure we would all take that too. Anyways, yes I agree to most points.

 

[cbucks]

I don't necessarily agree that not having the strongest of letters means you can't apply, though. I personally knew one of my three letters was just OK, but had two others who loved me and just applied to my IS my first round not really expecting to get in.

When OP started this thread they said that they had one letter from a veterinarian and would have to "beg someone else" for another one. With 1 month to go before the application cycle closed, it can be super hard to get a solid letter from someone (I personally did ask a vet I was working with at a shelter for a letter a month before I applied, but I also already had 4 others letters (one of them being another veterinarian) and thought that a letter would be a nice extra bit to have with my application). With so many schools having requirements for multiple letters and who should be writing the letters, having only one letter figured out towards the end of the application cycle means there are a lot of schools you can't apply to, and also means that there aren't many professionals that can testify to who you truly are. In this case, it would have definitely been beneficial to gain more experience/become closer with professors/etc. so that there could be multiple solid letters of recommendation.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yes, I understand what everyone was/is saying. It was my understanding that he did work well the following semester, if he did not then obviously I’m with the PI. If he did work extremely well the following semester and was still told no then that is unfortunate, I’m sure we can all agree. Also, by “work” is it paid or volunteer? Because wouldn’t that make a small difference, if it’s volunteer then he should get a bit of a slack as opposed to paid work. If it’s paid then yes 2 months is a lot, but if he wants to spend the dying months with his mom well then..I’m sure we would all take that too. Anyways, yes I agree to most points.

Nobody is saying taking time off to spend with a dying family member was wrong. I would gladly allow a student that much time off for a serious thing like that, assuming proper communication lines were followed. The issue is the OP stated that it was "impossible" to work in the second semester because of their other job and classes, but then turned around and said they spent 15hrs/week in the lab....so I'm going with gross overestimation of worthwhile time spent here. It's not adding up. I consider 10-15 hours a week a minimum requirement to be able to get anything worthwhile done in the lab. And that is IN THE LAB - not on your phone messing about, or doing your homework, or studying for your classes (which I see too many people doing).

However, I disagree that whether the research is paid or unpaid should make a difference. If a student works in my hypothetical lab, I invest time and effort in them (as well as resources that I have to buy for them out of MY grant money to perform their experiments). Students cost time and money. Working in research isn't like volunteering at a shelter and its no big deal if you don't show up, show up at odd hours, or show up unprepared/frazzled, etc. I expect them to treat it as a job, even if I am not paying them directly - especially if their end goal is an LoR.

 

[ajs513]

Yes, I understand what everyone was/is saying. It was my understanding that he did work well the following semester, if he did not then obviously I’m with the PI. If he did work extremely well the following semester and was still told no then that is unfortunate, I’m sure we can all agree. Also, by “work” is it paid or volunteer? Because wouldn’t that make a small difference, if it’s volunteer then he should get a bit of a slack as opposed to paid work. If it’s paid then yes 2 months is a lot, but if he wants to spend the dying months with his mom well then..I’m sure we would all take that too. Anyways, yes I agree to most points.

Being paid or unpaid shouldn’t make a difference in the quality of the work you give. Most research positions as an undergrad are unpaid, but you do it because it’s something to get under your belt, to gain experience and exposure, and to add to your resume for whatever venture you’re heading towards.

I worked 20+ hours a week through undergrad. I also did research for a few hours a week. I signed up for as many research slots as I could so that they’d know I was available and dependable, and I always tried my best to stay a little later if I could and they needed the help. I dug spent 20 minutes digging my car out of the snow to get to the farm for research after telling the researcher that I may not be able to make it. It was last minute and I felt that I could get there, and I wanted to make sure she knew I could be counted on. In semesters that I felt like I couldn’t handle it, I let them know and didn’t sign up to be on the team.

I’m not trying to say that I’m the shining example of what a research assistant should be, but I’m saying that I always gave my best and if I couldn’t, I didn’t sign up. It’s extremely important to view unpaid research experience as highly as other paid experiences once you’re a part of them. If you can’t give your all to an unpaid experience, don’t sign up for it.

 

[dyachei]

Nobody is saying taking time off to spend with a dying family member was wrong. I would gladly allow a student that much time off for a serious thing like that, assuming proper communication lines were followed. The issue is the OP stated that it was "impossible" to work in the second semester because of their other job and classes, but then turned around and said they spent 15hrs/week in the lab....so I'm going with gross overestimation of worthwhile time spent here. It's not adding up. I consider 10-15 hours a week a minimum requirement to be able to get anything worthwhile done in the lab. And that is IN THE LAB - not on your phone messing about, or doing your homework, or studying for your classes (which I see too many people doing).

However, I disagree that whether the research is paid or unpaid should make a difference. If a student works in my hypothetical lab, I invest time and effort in them (as well as resources that I have to buy for them out of MY grant money to perform their experiments). Students cost time and money. Working in research isn't like volunteering at a shelter and its no big deal if you don't show up, show up at odd hours, or show up unprepared/frazzled, etc. I expect them to treat it as a job, even if I am not paying them directly - especially if their end goal is an LoR.

All of this, basically.

OP should be glad that the PI refused instead of writing a bad LOR. I've seen that happen before.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yep.

I had a former student approach me for a letter, and I had to decline as well. Not because they were awful or anything, but I just wasn't super thrilled about them and knew my letter would reflect that. They always put in their hours, but those hours were not well spent. Others I've written glowing ones about. It's hard to hide your true concerns about a person when you write, because you'll come off sounding disingenous. In a way, OP dodged a bullet here and can work on getting more experience and stronger letters next time.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don’t understand the logic that if you volunteer hours, then you “deserve” a strong rec letter. You earn a strong rec letter by being awesome and doing a good job. It’s as simple as that. Not all volunteers are helpful.

You can spend 40 hrs a week “volunteering” and doing a ****ty job. And if someone is evaluating you in a LOR, they have to be honest and say that despite your time commitment, you are incompetent/lazy/unpleasant/etc... The kindest thing they can do is tell you honestly that you should look elsewhere for a recommendation because they can’t give you a good one.

 

[Vet2022-20224]

I don’t understand the logic that if you volunteer hours, then you “deserve” a strong rec letter. You earn a strong rec letter by being awesome and doing a good job. It’s as simple as that. Not all volunteers are helpful.

You can spend 40 hrs a week “volunteering” and doing a ****ty job. And if someone is evaluating you in a LOR, they have to be honest and say that despite your time commitment, you are incompetent/lazy/unpleasant/etc... The kindest thing they can do is tell you honestly that you should look elsewhere for a recommendation because they can’t give you a good one.

if this is a reply to my earlier post, I was just posing a question and slack meaning the time frame OP can spend with his mom. If that should be no different between volunteer/paid then okay, to each their own. I never intended to say that anyone at all deserves a letter. Of course, a person needs to earn a letter of rec. OP did get lucky by getting denied instead of a bad rec letter. There seems to be a lot of assumptions on this thread (myself included, on what did or did not actually happen to OP) and more clarity might have helped provide a more helpful answer to OP. 🤔

 

[Adamawavet]

I think it is worth noting that this post was from a year ago, but wanted to lend my perspective on having a post-doc rather than a PI write a letter. The first time I applied I had a post-doc I worked closely with on a project for 600+ hours write me a letter. While I was professional and fulfilled my commitment, the PI often wasn't professional, so I respected the post-doc much more. She wrote me a great letter, better than what the PI would have written, and I got in. I ended up not attending and re-applying two years later, without using a research letter at all. I felt a letter from my current employer meant more, and got into my top school. Neither time did it come up in interviews. As long as you put your best foot forward and try to choose your letters to tell your whole story, titles don't matter.