Research?

[sazor2412]

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What areas of research are there for vets that have good job outlooks? Possible to do part time research after graduating to suppliment an equine vet income? What sort of salaries and hours are involved? What can you tell me about research as a vet in general?

 

[grumpycat]

What areas of research are there for vets that have good job outlooks? Possible to do part time research after graduating to suppliment an equine vet income? What sort of salaries and hours are involved? What can you tell me about research as a vet in general?

Take what I say with a boulder of salt because I am by no means an expert in the field but I would think that most research positions would require a Ph.D, or at the very least a Masters. Research funding is scarce nowadays, so most of it will be invested in projects for those with advanced basic science degrees who have a good understanding of what they are doing. If you really want to do research, maybe you should look into dual degree programs? You can't really jump into research without having previously done some extensive work yourself with a couple of publications to your name.

Research does not generally pay well either monetarily or in terms of recognition of efforts, all the while requiring borderline slavery-level hours in most cases.

 

[PetPony]

And it's not something for everyone. Do you have any experience with it yet at all?

 

[Foxhunter]

What areas of research are there for vets that have good job outlooks? Possible to do part time research after graduating to suppliment an equine vet income? What sort of salaries and hours are involved? What can you tell me about research as a vet in general?

I literally have no idea how you would do research part-time to supplement an equine vet income (if you have an appointment at a university it could be 50/50 clinical and research so I guess technically you would be supplementing your vet income with research income- this would require a PhD or Post-doc/, Clinician-Scientist fellowship, etc. though).

Hours are whenever you need to be there (i.e. the other day I was at a farm from 3 AM to 10 AM working a shift for a project that ISN'T mine). Sometimes I come in on weekends to do something. Some days I'm here from 10 am to 10 pm. Some days 8 or 9-5. Sometimes my boss will have a lab group meeting that lasts til 7 pm on a Friday.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Sometimes my boss will have a lab group meeting that lasts til 7 pm on a Friday.

Your boss kinda sucks... just sayin.

But yeah, vet school teaches you to become a clinician and not a scientist so it would be really difficult to make money with it "on the side." There's really no reason for anyone to hire a non-scientist clinical vet to do research.

 

[krist]

Purely anecdotal, but a friend of mine is a DVM/PhD and said his DVM is 98% useless and if he could re-do it he would just go get his PhD. Think about it this way...plain PhDs get research jobs, double DRs get research jobs, but has anyone heard of a plain old DVM in research (not board-certified)? The DVM added on (to the tune of 4 years/150+k), as far as i have heard, does not add much to your career options etc that you couldnt get with just a PhD.

 

[PetPony]

Unless you want to teach at a vet school, do research there and be in the teaching hospital. 🙂

 

[Elliott Garber]

There are actually a TON of cool ways to get involved in research as a DVM. Sure, you could do clinical research at a veterinary teaching hospital, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of veterinary research jobs pay very compared to their clinical medicine counterparts.

Here is one little article about my own yearlong research experience during vet school. I was in India through an NIH program studying zoonotic diseases. Pretty cool stuff.

http://www.elliottgarber.com/national-institutes-of-health-global-health-program/

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

There are actually a TON of cool ways to get involved in research as a DVM. Sure, you could do clinical research at a veterinary teaching hospital, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of veterinary research jobs pay very compared to their clinical medicine counterparts.

Here is one little article about my own yearlong research experience during vet school. I was in India through an NIH program studying zoonotic diseases. Pretty cool stuff.

http://www.elliottgarber.com/national-institutes-of-health-global-health-program/

As someone who is now fighting tooth and nail to get into even basic postdoctoral research, it's much more difficult than you imply.

Funding is extremely scarce. EXTREMELY. Especially now with the NIH budget revisions. I have not only a DVM, but will be completing a highly-competitive residency soon (complete with a CV over 2 pages long of research experience, papers, etc) , and I'n basically begging for people to hire me and pay me **** postdoc salary just so I can get the darned PhD, which is the only thing that will get me through the research door. PIs don't want vets - they want PhDs. They want someone with tailored training in their specific research arena, not a generalist.

Both industry and academia have basically required one (or at least "highly prefer one" which we all know what that means) for vets interested in doing any sort of research.

If you have a DVM, PhD, and board certification, yes, you can get into industry and make some good pay. But the whole "DVMs are wanted in research!" line that I was fed throughout vet school has proven to be very false in the real world.

 

[parula]

As someone who is now fighting tooth and nail to get into even basic postdoctoral research, it's much more difficult than you imply.

Funding is extremely scarce. EXTREMELY. Especially now with the NIH budget revisions. I have not only a DVM but will be completely a residency soon, and I'n basically begging for people to hire me and pay me **** postdoc salary just so I can get the darned PhD, which is the only thing that will get me through the research door. PIs don't want vets - they want PhDs. They want someone with tailored training in their specific research arena, not a generalist.

Both industry and academia have basically required one (or at least "highly prefer one" which we all know what that means) for vets interested in doing any sort of research.

If you have a DVM, PhD, and board certification, yes, you can get into industry and make some good pay. But the whole "DVMs are wanted in research!" line that I was fed throughout vet school has proven to be very false in the real world.

That's really scary, HELPFUL, but scary... I decided not to apply to a dual degree program since so many people who had done it told me it wasn't worth the stress and being separated socially from your class. Wonder if I made a mistake with that one...

What is your residency in?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That's really scary, HELPFUL, but scary... I decided not to apply to a dual degree program since so many people who had done it told me it wasn't worth the stress and being separated socially from your class. Wonder if I made a mistake with that one...

What is your residency in?

Anatomic pathology.

Actually, I don't think you made a bad choice. I find dual degree programs weird because they intersperse the research during vet school....to me, those are two completely different animals. By the time you get back to clinics, you won't remember your first few years. I would advise doing the PhD afterwards.

Yeah, unfortunately, research is still biased against DVMs. If you know the right people and can pull the strings, ok. But all you have to do is look at the job market. Every job I look at in industry or academia wants a PhD. Obviously, every research job wants one too. And understandably in a way, because in all honesty vet school does not prepare you in any way for research. To be a clinician? Sure. But research is very different, and people want you to have that PhD.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

All the being said, I DO think there are careers out there for DVMs with PhDs. However, you really need both from what I've seen. Seeing DVM in an industry, research, or academia job without a PhD is getting rarer and rarer.

I don't try to be a wet blanket without cause...I guess it's just that I'm a little saddened that during school I heard all about how people in research want vets, only to find out no...they want vets with PhDs, or vets with specialties and PhDs.

 

[parula]

Anatomic pathology.

Actually, I don't think you made a bad choice. I find dual degree programs weird because they intersperse the research during vet school....to me, those are two completely different animals. By the time you get back to clinics, you won't remember your first few years. I would advise doing the PhD afterwards.

Yeah, unfortunately, research is still biased against DVMs. If you know the right people and can pull the strings, ok. But all you have to do is look at the job market. Every job I look at in industry or academia wants a PhD. Obviously, every research job wants one too. And understandably in a way, because in all honesty vet school does not prepare you in any way for research. To be a clinician? Sure. But research is very different, and people want you to have that PhD.

Would you mind if I PM you and ask a few more questions?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Would you mind if I PM you and ask a few more questions?

Sure. I swear I am not as grumpy in real life I am particularly sore on this subject recently because I'm trying to get into NIH-funded postdoc/PhD programs for DVMs, which are even fewer and farther between now, because after looking at all the job postings I realized I can't do much without a PhD.

 

[Minnerbelle]

For pathology, are there any NIH-postdoc funded programs that are combined residency/degree like there are in some lab animal programs? Or is it standard that you do a path residency for **** resident pay, and then have to find another postdoc program for a little less ****ty postdoc pay?

 

[Kwheezy]

My professor got his DVM, did clinical
work for a while, then went back to get a phd. I don't think he'd have his job now without a phd. I am interested in research, but more interested in clinical work so I'm going to see where life takes me!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

For pathology, are there any NIH-postdoc funded programs that are combined residency/degree like there are in some lab animal programs? Or is it standard that you do a path residency for **** resident pay, and then have to find another postdoc program for a little less ****ty postdoc pay?

There are. Most anatomic pathology residencies are combined with a PhD now. However, the T32 portion is not always guaranteed (in general, you start out doing mostly residency type things and then transition into PhD). For example, we may not have any T32s (the NIH grant) for me and my co-residents this year when we all plan to begin our PhDs. Another reason I am trying to jump ship. We had other residents of ours apply for it and not get them. Can't remember how they ended up getting funded. T32 grants all have to be applied for independently - people from other schools can apply (which is essentially what I am doing).

I'ts not really a postdoc per se - the NIH T32 grants for vets are for pursuing PhDs, but they pay you on the postdoc scale. The idea of not being able to find a T32 funded program (maybe a bit over a dozen nationwide with a few positions each) and having to live on a normal PhD salary of ~17k or whatever it is now makes me nauseous....I'm 28 with tons of vet school debt. Seriously. No bueno. I want a livable wage.

It seems that with anatomic pathology, having a PhD is essentially required for most jobs (yet another thing I wasn't aware of when I started). This doesn't always hold for other specialties,though. Jobs at national/state diagnostic labs don't require them, but those are very few and far between right now,maybe a handful nationally.

I figured I would be easily able to land an industry/research or teaching hospital/academia job with a DVM and pathology board certification, but I was dead wrong :/

On the upside of all this, I do absolutely love my specialty. It's what keeps me going through all the financial and scholastic mess that advanced training has become.

 

[Minnerbelle]

However, the T32 portion is not always guaranteed (in general, you start out doing mostly residency type things and then transition into PhD). For example, we may not have any T32s (the NIH grant) for me and my co-residents this year when we all plan to begin our PhDs. Another reason I am trying to jump ship.

I'ts not really a postdoc per se - the NIH T32 grants are for pursuing PhDs, but they pay you on the postdoc scale. The idea of not being able to find a T32 funded program (maybe a dozen or so nation wide with a few positions each) and having to live on a normal PhD salary of ~17k or whatever for four years makes me nauseous....

hot damns, that sucks balls. i'm so sorry...

 

[DickVetPlease]

Yikes, it has been forever since I've posted on here, but this thread piqued my interest. I'm still a 3rd year vet student, looking into applying to lab animal residencies, specifically those with the T32 grant (Hoping to do a dual PhD). Do you have any advice as far as deciding on an institution to complete that sort of program, specifically with regard to how "solid" the T32 is?

I know my options are limited to begin with, because there are only a couple universities that offer combined programs such as the ones Minnerbelle was talking about, but I'd hate to end up somewhere that loses it's means of funding :-/

Really sorry to hear about your situation as well.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

Yikes WTF..you went to VMRCVM right? Did Dr. A teach immuno then as well. He definitely is all about DVMs in research. I'm actually applying for the summer research program to try and do immuno research after his class. I'm not at all sure I would want to do research as a career, just want some experience in the field. Knowing that a PHD is mandatory really turns me away from it. (Same with being a veterinary anatomist-I know some of y'all will hate me for it but I 😍 anatomy! Unfortunately DVM/PHD required.) I'm not interested in spending any more time in school after graduation. I'll be nearly 40 by then and my husband would really appreciate me having a job eventually🙄

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yikes, it has been forever since I've posted on here, but this thread piqued my interest. I'm still a 3rd year vet student, looking into applying to lab animal residencies, specifically those with the T32 grant (Hoping to do a dual PhD). Do you have any advice as far as deciding on an institution to complete that sort of program, specifically with regard to how "solid" the T32 is?

I know my options are limited to begin with, because there are only a couple universities that offer combined programs such as the ones Minnerbelle was talking about, but I'd hate to end up somewhere that loses it's means of funding :-/

Really sorry to hear about your situation as well.

I would straight out ask them what their record for residents acquiring T32s are. Usually schools have a few positions, but far as I know, T32s cannot be earmarked by the school for any specific candidate ahead of time. Usually, however, the "home residents" get them anyway because they already have mentors, etc (making them better candidates in the independent selection process). Which is why I'm on a little bit of an uphill road right now, because I'm an outsider. But then again, we had a resident last year who was beaten out by the other person (not from here) who applied for it. So it isn't as solid as I thought, either.

Yikes WTF..you went to VMRCVM right? Did Dr. A teach immuno then as well. He definitely is all about DVMs in research. I'm actually applying for the summer research program to try and do immuno research after his class. I'm not at all sure I would want to do research as a career, just want some experience in the field. Knowing that a PHD is mandatory really turns me away from it. (Same with being a veterinary anatomist-I know some of y'all will hate me for it but I 😍 anatomy! Unfortunately DVM/PHD required.) I'm not interested in spending any more time in school after graduation. I'll be nearly 40 by then and my husband would really appreciate me having a job eventually🙄

I did. And I really love Dr. A and like how he pushed for vets in research. I guess the problem is vets could be so useful in research - so yes, they are needed in that way. They just aren't wanted as much as I thought (or if you are wanted, PIs want additional experience or letters after your name)

I have nothing against research vets in the least - I love research and think we can contribute a LOT. But A PhD has become pretty much a necessity IMO, if you want to get into programs that do good work/publish/etc. And I think that point is glossed over a lot. I wouldn't say it is 100% mandatory, but it will be pretty darned hard to get into a good high -level research career without one.

 

[Camelidcrazy]

WTF: Please don't think I'm incredibly ignorant (although I probably am). But my current boss is in academic research (and trying to persuade me to get a basic sciences PhD after vet school) and keeps making comments about 'KO8' grant money from the NIH available to DVM grads. She insists that it is an overfull cup just splashing grant money onto whoever applies for it. I take it you looked into this grant and it's not as amazing as she claims?

[insert brainless statement here]

 

[Camelidcrazy]

Yup- a post doc is not the same as completing your PhD. These are things I know. Blarg.

 

[mnkyrat]

Just gotta chime in here so some important facts don't get lost...I am no expert, but I have a PhD and have been a post-doc for 3 years now (and I am currently wanting to go to vet school. Kinda backwards!)

You do get a stipend during grad school (you are cheap labor and a good investment!). This site has the 2012 NIH pay-scale for example
http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/notice-files/NOT-OD-12-033.html,

so a PI has to pay you AT LEAST the pre-doc salary, but most places are more because of area-to-area living expenses. For example, I went to UF and got 27K/year + insurance, you can live off that (personal opinion!), and your loans go into deferment. You don't get post-doc pay, although you can get paid a bit better with support, like as mentioned with the T32.

like I said, I am no expert, and you guys are in a different boat since you have clinical experience, but I would love to clarify any thoughts/questions/comments if you have any 😀

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

WTF: Please don't think I'm incredibly ignorant (although I probably am). But my current boss is in academic research (and trying to persuade me to get a basic sciences PhD after vet school) and keeps making comments about 'KO8' grant money from the NIH available to DVM grads. She insists that it is an overfull cup just splashing grant money onto whoever applies for it. I take it you looked into this grant and it's not as amazing as she claims?

[insert brainless statement here]

I'm not as knowledgeable about K08s. Considering the pay scale and the support ( $75K/year plus fringe benefits, $25K for research support, for 3-5 yrs), I'm sure they also want the MD/DO/DVM to have a research degree of some sort (or at least postdoc experience). I didn't even bother applying for one because I don't have the time to organize and write a huge grant for a 3-5 year research plan, with cost, support staff, budget, etc during residency. Just too much 🙁 So I'm not an expert on them, but I would definitely raise an eyebrow at someone who said if you just apply for you, you'll get one. I'd ask to see the statistics.


NIH is currently having to reconsider its entire budget this year, so I wouldn't call anything an overflowing cup. In addition, NIH will only support human-related research. So animal models of human disease, sure. But you want to sure dog cancer? Sorry. That cuts out a lot of veterinary projects (although other things like the AKC and Morris can help).

Now....this might sound a little controversial, but I think it is a lot harder for the older generation of vets in academia to understand how difficult things have become. It was much easier to get research money 20+ years ago. I don't mean in any way to call them ignorant, but when you aren't on the front lines (as we are) it's easy to think things have stayed the same.

 

[Elliott Garber]

Wow, all good input here! I was fortunate to get accepted into a couple great research training programs during vet school, and those programs have opened doors for further work if I'm interested. My experience was that everyone can appreciate the contributions of veterinarians to research, but it's true that you need to have specialized training with board certification and/or another advanced degree if you want to get paid for your contributions.

If you want to be a straight-up biomedical researcher, sure, just go and get your PhD and give vet school a miss. If you want to be able to combine your clinical interests and hands-on animal work with research, then a DVM + lab animal would be ideal.

I haven't heard of any lab animal residents worried about getting the jobs they were promised, so maybe the demand is still better in that field.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Wow, all good input here! I was fortunate to get accepted into a couple great research training programs during vet school, and those programs have opened doors for further work if I'm interested. My experience was that everyone can appreciate the contributions of veterinarians to research, but it's true that you need to have specialized training with board certification and/or another advanced degree if you want to get paid for your contributions.

Exactly! You summed it up perfectly. I also had some great experienced in school including a T35. But that was three or four years ago 🙁 Things are definitely tighter now.

I haven't heard of any lab animal residents worried about getting the jobs they were promised, so maybe the demand is still better in that field.

I'm gonna have to disagree with that one. Lab animal is not that great at all right now. Maybe a little better than when it was floundering badly a year or two ago, but not great. A lot of newly minted residents are having trouble, mostly due to old hands not retiring (economy yet again). Same with anatomic path - the lack of people retiring from diagnostic jobs is pushing us into research/academia (ie hide out and have more school until the market gets better).

I'm not saying things may not change in the next few year, and don't mean to dissuade anyone from lab animal. But it's not in the best state right now based on who I've talked to. But hopefully on the upswing.

 

[Foxhunter]

Wow, all good input here! I was fortunate to get accepted into a couple great research training programs during vet school, and those programs have opened doors for further work if I'm interested.

Just curious as to what further work you could get from them? Does this mean a PhD spot if you wanted one, or actual jobs that would pay well?

 

[Elliott Garber]

Just curious as to what further work you could get from them? Does this mean a PhD spot if you wanted one, or actual jobs that would pay well?

I'm referring more to the former: standing offers to do further PhD work if I am ever interested.

However, I can count on the latter as well given my unique position as a vet in the Army. At this point in my career (3.5 years post DVM graduation), I need to decide what type of further training I want to go for if I stay in the Army. This could be a PhD (at the civilian institution of my choice), lab animal residency, pathology residency, or clinical residency.

For all those options, I would be in training for 3-4 years and then owe another 4-5 year commitment to the Army. During that entire period of residency/PhD work, plus my pay-back time, I would continue getting my regular salary and benefits (salary ~$90-100k).

So, I would be guaranteed an actual job that would pay well after my training, but that's just because of the Army and not because of the regular job market in the civilian world.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm referring more to the former: standing offers to do further PhD work if I am ever interested.

However, I can count on the latter as well given my unique position as a vet in the Army. At this point in my career (3.5 years post DVM graduation), I need to decide what type of further training I want to go for if I stay in the Army. This could be a PhD (at the civilian institution of my choice), lab animal residency, pathology residency, or clinical residency.

For all those options, I would be in training for 3-4 years and then owe another 4-5 year commitment to the Army. During that entire period of residency/PhD work, plus my pay-back time, I would continue getting my regular salary and benefits (salary ~$90-100k).

So, I would be guaranteed an actual job that would pay well after my training, but that's just because of the Army and not because of the regular job market in the civilian world.

Yeah, that's the difference.. The military will pay you very well to do research/residency, whereas in the civilian world it's a lot more grim. I get 30k as a resident, which is on the high end. PhD is about 18k for the average PhD student, and about 40k if I am lucky to get one of the NIH positions (or if the labs have funding that could pay me better)

I considered the military route, but after learning I would have to 1)spend 2-3 years being a clinical vet for the base pets, bomb dogs, horses (no way. I would be miserable as a GP vet) followed by 2) a mandatory year abroad in lord knows where before they would let me pursue residency....I dunno, I couldn't swallow it. Especially the abroad part. Don't know how I would manage my animals/SO.

 

[krist]

@Elliot - did you do the army HPSP program during vet school? I'm in the middle of applying for it and would love to ask you some questions, if that's the army route you went!

 

[Elliott Garber]

@Elliot - did you do the army HPSP program during vet school? I'm in the middle of applying for it and would love to ask you some questions, if that's the army route you went!

Yep, I had a three year HPSP scholarship. I would love answer any questions you have about the program! Feel free to ask away on here or get in touch via my website if you would rather e-mail.

I'm starting a series of articles about my experiences with the Army, the first of which you can find here:

http://www.elliottgarber.com/army-veterinarian-part-1-lets-start-at-the-very-beginning/

 

[CrazyCatLady77]

If you want to be a straight-up biomedical researcher, sure, just go and get your PhD and give vet school a miss. If you want to be able to combine your clinical interests and hands-on animal work with research, then a DVM + lab animal would be ideal.

Agreed -- however, IMHO, I feel that the best biomedical/translational research is derived from those with dual degrees (MD/PhD, DVM/PhD).... The medical degree gives an in-depth physiological understanding (or so I'd hope?), while the Ph.D teaches the ins and outs of research science (which is another beast entirely and is difficult to appreciate without experience). Combining the two allows one to design most relevant and informative experiments and perform more accurate data analysis.

Also, doesn't necessarily have to be lab animal based research -- truly depends on the type of research you're interested in pursuing.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

View attachment NatureDVMPhD.pdf

This seems to be an article relevant to the discussion

 

[StartingoverVet]

View attachment 22027

This seems to be an article relevant to the discussion

A bit on the sunny side of the street.

Pfizer here I come!

 

[CrazyCatLady77]

A bit on the sunny side of the street.

Pfizer here I come!

That was certainly a very optimistic article! And in Nature nonetheless, so it must be trustworthy right? I hope so!

Not to be the rainy cloud, but I was discussing this subject with a lab animal veterinarian just the other day... Industrial and pharmaceutical companies are notorious for job instability. :cry: A wife of one of the comparative med faculty members here was just recently laid off from her pharma job (that she previously held for 9-10 years). Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident (spoken with other DVMs with similar stories). I know this is most definitely the case for PhD scientists - where the turnover rate is enormous (many are attracted to the higher pay, and overlook the potential job instability). However, I do think there is more stability through institutions like the NIH... but rumor has it those are far more difficult jobs to come by. (?) Pretty encouraging though that more DVM/PhD's are needed in academia...

I'm wondering, are there positions where research (by DVM/PhD) is covered by institutional grants if the veterinarians also maintain clinical responsibilities? Or is it pretty much standard that DVM's wishing to conduct research must apply for & win their own grant funding?

 

[Elliott Garber]

Wow, I hadn't seen that article from Nature. Interesting that they would report on our specific little field and its career possibilities!

They basically summarize the findings of the two big "future of the veterinary profession" reports that came out this year: there is no shortage of clinical vets, but there is of pretty much every other kind.

I like this quotation from Dr. Buntain:

“People have a very narrow view of what veterinarians do,” says Bonnie Buntain, a public-health expert at the University of Calgary in Canada who started out as a horse veterinarian. “Who would have thought that a horse vet from Hawaii would be guiding national regulations on food safety and humane animal treatment in Washington DC at the USDA, and then be offered a tenured professor position?”

 

[Elliott Garber]

Here's an interesting opportunity for a funded MSc or PhD at the University of Saskatchewan for research on zoonotic parasites in wildlife, domestic animals, and humans in northwest Canada.

It sounds like their ideal candidates are North American veterinarians, but they're open to anyone with at least a bachelor's degree, including international vets.

http://bit.ly/TBYBj3

 

[AnneofGrnGables]

.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and so appreciative of all the insight you all have been sharing. Frankly, I'm finding these veterinary-research career-outlook "promises", if you will, really disheartening (and confounding) when assessing it from multiple angles. I've come across several reports, such as the NPG one posted earlier, forecasting these incredibly "positive", wildly optimistic job outlooks in the veterinary research fields and even claiming that there's a huge demand/deficit existing right now in the way of veterinary researchers. Then I hear anecdotes (both primary and secondary) from people such as WhtsThFrequency that certainly are valid in their own right as well but clearly are difficult to reconcile and polar to the claims of these reports.

For instance, this article states, "Meanwhile, veterinary schools in the United States and the United Kingdom say that they struggle to find candidates that have both clinical and research experience. According to the NRC report, roughly 11% of the veterinarians with faculty positions will be retiring by 2016." I mean, really??? Are we all still talking about the same US and UK on planet Earth? As WhtsThFrequency said earlier and based on my own personal observations, with the unhealthy state of our economy, there is simply decreased turnover happening for research/faculty positions all across scientific academia, and quite possibly more sectors. Anyone understand why there's this discrepancy between these fairly recent reports and what's actually going on in the field, as far as job opportunities for DVM graduates going into lab animal/research/etc? It's frustrating when things are being inaccurately portrayed about the job market and meanwhile misleading so many more aspiring veterinary students in the pipeline. I hope to not get screwed over - savvy, career journalists? 😉

They have claimed the need for DVM researchers for years - I heard the same thing when I entered school in 2006. But all you have to do is look for the jobs,and they aren't there. Is there a NEED for us? Yes, we could contribute so much.But the jobs aren't there unless you have a DVM,PhD,papers,postdoc experience, etc. We have to prove ourselves a lot more because a DVM is a clinical degree - it doesn't say anything about research ability in their mind. They don't care about your 4 years of vet school, they want a research degree that has put out papers, physically done research for years, etc to join their lab. Trust me, I've been snubbed by enough of them. Now, are there jobs if you are willing to get a PhD (5 more years after vet school, getting paid pittance) a postdoc or two (2-3 more years)? Yeah. But it's a long expensive road.

The reason they are having trouble recruiting faculty is because academic positions almost always require a PhD (or PhD and board-certification in a specialty), and most vets do not get one. Decreased turnover is one of the biggest players IMO, even in academia. The 11% of people that will retire (and I find this a high guess) are most likely all people who are Directors, Deans, high-level professors, etc. The positions that will become available are not for newly minted specialists, they want old hands- this is why they are having trouble filling them. It's a catch-22...they want experienced profs or diagnosticians, but we can't gain experience because there are no jobs at the bottom.

 

[AnneofGrnGables]

The reason they are having trouble recruiting faculty is because academic positions almost always require a PhD (or PhD and board-certification in a specialty), and most vets do not get one.

Oy. Is this also true for teaching/faculty positions among vet schools? I only know this to be generally the case for biomedical (Tier 1) research universities.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Oy. Is this also true for teaching/faculty positions among vet schools? I only know this to be generally the case for biomedical (Tier 1) research universities.

Unfortunately true, especially for the bigger vet schools. Look at any vet school's faculty rosters - most of them have PhDs or at least MSs and almost all are board-certified in their respective specialty/teaching area. There are sometimes assistant professorships for those without PhDs (I have applied to some myself) but not too many. Problem is,schools are hurting for research monies,and if you have a PhD they assume you can bring in grant $$. If you don't, they have less faith. There are ways around it,like there are ways around anything, but an advanced degree is quite common if not the norm in academia.

 

[485501]

But the jobs aren't there unless you have a DVM,PhD,papers,postdoc experience, etc. We have to prove ourselves a lot more because a DVM is a clinical degree - it doesn't say anything about research ability in their mind. They don't care about your 4 years of vet school, they want a research degree that has put out papers, physically done research for years, etc to join their lab. Trust me, I've been snubbed by enough of them. Now, are there jobs if you are willing to get a PhD (5 more years after vet school, getting paid pittance) a postdoc or two (2-3 more years)? Yeah. But it's a long expensive road.

I would agree with this. One of the vets I just started shadowing for told me that if she could bear going back to school for that long, she would do it, because she sees jobs available for DVM/PhDs a lot. She told me that going the dual-degree program route was really smart, and that from what she's seen of the field recently, she expects more and more jobs to be available largely for people with two degrees, especially once the economy picks up again and research money is more available. And yes, it is a LOT of school. I'd say if you want to go into research, try to get in to a dual-degree program; the stipend may be tiny but the program pays your fees and tuition (not sure if this is true for all programs, btw). But only do that if you know you want to go into research. There is no way to stay sane in one of those programs if you only kind of want it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yup.

I don't mean to come off like a wet blanket. But when you look at how detailed our profession has become in the past 10-20 years....if you want to do anything other than being a general practitioner at a private clinic (and there's nothing wrong with being a GP in the least!) you're going to have to do extra schooling, whether it be a PhD, a residency, an MPH, or some sort of other training.

 

[AnneofGrnGables]

.

 

[Camelidcrazy]

Hey there, WTF!

The language in this document seems kind of vague as to what includes 'public service' as it includes 'high need health professionals' and academics but not specifically veterinarians. Do you happen to know if it includes vets who go straight into academia? I really would like to do a Therio residency/PhD and land in academia which I realize is just about the least lucrative thing I can do with my education. Trying to strategize ways to help feed my family 😀

http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml

 

[Foxhunter]

Hey there, WTF!

The language in this document seems kind of vague as to what includes 'public service' as it includes 'high need health professionals' and academics but not specifically veterinarians. Do you happen to know if it includes vets who go straight into academia? I really would like to do a Therio residency/PhD and land in academia which I realize is just about the least lucrative thing I can do with my education. Trying to strategize ways to help feed my family 😀

http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml

Haha... My brazilian man friend did a therio residency and is now doing a PhD....

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hey there, WTF!

The language in this document seems kind of vague as to what includes 'public service' as it includes 'high need health professionals' and academics but not specifically veterinarians. Do you happen to know if it includes vets who go straight into academia? I really would like to do a Therio residency/PhD and land in academia which I realize is just about the least lucrative thing I can do with my education. Trying to strategize ways to help feed my family 😀

http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml

I will be honest in that I don't know, but I suspect not. The difference is,unlike highschool or college teachers (or teachers in training), the bulk of the duties of a resident is diagnostics. We teach on the side, but not enough to "qualify" if that makes any sense. Same with PhD, it is more research,not teaching. I think those forgiveness programs are for people that want to go teach colleges,high schools,elementary schools, etc (or are in government or public health jobs where diagnostic and research work is minimal). I've never heard of a veterinary resident in this type of program, but I guess you could ask.

Also, this sucks:"Forms for canceling the remaining debt are not yet available, since the soonest any borrower would obtain public service loan forgiveness is 2017."

 

[Camelidcrazy]

I will be honest in that I don't know, but I suspect not. The difference is,unlike highschool or college teachers (or teachers in training), the bulk of the duties of a resident is diagnostics. We teach on the side, but not enough to "qualify" if that makes any sense. Same with PhD, it is more research,not teaching. I think those forgiveness programs are for people that want to go teach colleges,high schools,elementary schools, etc (or are in government or public health jobs where diagnostic and research work is minimal). I've never heard of a veterinary resident in this type of program, but I guess you could ask.

Also, this sucks:"Forms for canceling the remaining debt are not yet available, since the soonest any borrower would obtain public service loan forgiveness is 2017."

Blarg. Everything is hard.

I guess I will go back to hoping I win the lottery.

 

[Elliott Garber]

I think those forgiveness programs are for people that want to go teach colleges,high schools,elementary schools, etc (or are in government or public health jobs where diagnostic and research work is minimal). I've never heard of a veterinary resident in this type of program, but I guess you could ask.

I actually just learned a little more about a loan repayment program through NIH that is available for vets who are involved in public health-related research. My first podcast interview is with Jonathan Epstein, a DVM/MPH who works for the EcoHealth Alliance in NYC. This is a non-profit that does research and training around the world on emerging infectious diseases, and Jon has been working with them ever since he graduated. He participated in this program through NIH and got all his Tufts loans paid off through it.

I think all of you interested in veterinary research careers will be interested to hear him talk about his own educational and career track, as it is somewhat non-traditional. He has successfully been published in some of the biggest journals and is widely recognized as an expert even without a PhD.