Resentment toward MD/PhD students/graduates?

[solitude]

Oh I don't argue that at all. I'm all about the MD/PhD. I just was pointing out that a straight PhD isn't the only or, in some cases, even the best way to a Nobel, if that's what your gunning for.

Yeah you're right. I think a Nobel is so much luck, hard work, and occasionally brilliance, that it really doesn't matter what degree you do.

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[Hohenheim]

I maintain optimism because I love what I am doing and I look forward to a fulfilling career. Four years is nothing in the big scheme of things, but if it is a significant concern, you should not do a MD/PhD. Everyone would love to win a Nobel or do research worthy of recognition, but if that is your main goal, don't do the MD/PhD, keep doing your PhD and go for it. It's like saying "Why do the MD/PhD, because your MD classmates will be making big bucks for a few years before you do." People are motivated by different things.

Very true that people are motivated by different things: Which is my point: Is anyone at all really doing the MDPhD because they love basic science? i.e. Love of Science > Love of Cash? Seriously? Even a straight PhD who takes 8 years, ceteris paribus, has more time devoted to science than an MDPhD who has to cope with other demands.

 

[Circumflex]

Is anyone at all really doing the MDPhD because they love basic science? i.e. Love of Science > Love of Cash? Seriously?

Yes. That's why I did the MD/PhD. If I did not love science, I would have just done the MD. Love of science and love of medicine are not mutually exclusive. I obviously care more about enjoying my career than making as much money as possible, or I would not have chosen this route. In general, academicians make less than their purely clinical counterparts. The great thing is that you still get compensated well.

 

[TheCybermen]

About 3 years ago I was talking with a VERY famous breast cancer pathologist about my future goals and I commented that I felt like an MD/PhD would give me a solid background for a career in breast pathology. Maybe my tone was off I don't know, but this MD only became VERY irate a fact I didn't put much weight into at the time. Well recently when I mentioned the fact that the MD/PhD's I met in a certain residenty program were shaprest in the group (I didn't use that term specifically but that's the jist of it), and one of the MD only folks also seemed VERY irate.

I've spent a greater part of my profesisonal life in academia working around primarily PhD's, but also MD's and MD/PhD's but I'd never noticed any sserious angnst between the groups and with the exception of the 2 situations, I still haven't. But now I'm starting wonder is this "angst" common??? Do your MD or PhD only classmates "hate on" you guys? Are MD/PhD students intellectual elitist or assumed to be? Do you feel you have to keep a low profile because of professinal jealousy? If so, how pathetically sad!

it's important to remember that the MD-PhD track is a fairly recent innovation, and that the curricula of medical schools in the United States was much, much more science-heavy than it is at the present some 20, 30 years ago. the said, many established modern-day physicians were brought into being under a different pedagogy. this doctor with whom you spoke may be no exception, and may not see the reason for your decision to undertake what can easily present itself as an "overkill" course of education. i've come across the same problem numerous times, and this is almost always the case; e.g. "when i was training there was no such thing as an MD-PhD. MDs knew all they needed to. but back then, there was less to know."

 

[1Path]

it's important to remember that the MD-PhD track is a fairly recent innovation, and that the curricula of medical schools in the United States was much, much more science-heavy than it is at the present some 20, 30 years ago. the said, many established modern-day physicians were brought into being under a different pedagogy. this doctor with whom you spoke may be no exception, and may not see the reason for your decision to undertake what can easily present itself as an "overkill" course of education. i've come across the same problem numerous times, and this is almost always the case; e.g. "when i was training there was no such thing as an MD-PhD. MDs knew all they needed to. but back then, there was less to know."

Great points. The doc I was speaking with was probably in his 70's. And about all the info there is to know, well it's overwhelming in a exciting kinda way!

 

[greg12345]

gbwillner - I am a 4th year med student/8th year overall. I agree that the respect you get is directly proportional to how good you are...if you are some stud researcher with a science/cell/nature paper but clueless and without people skills once you get back to 3rd year, you will get scorned and ridiculed and generally looked down upon. But if you are good at both (research + clinical medicine) you will get a lot of respect...more so than either a straight grad or straight med student who is just as good as you are...at least in my opinion and from what i have seen.

QofQuimica - "If anything, MSTP students tend to be younger and LESS mature than the average MD-only student." I find that sort of surprising...at my institution while we do have some non-traditional med students (e.g. older ones who have PHDs or MBAs or JDs) most of our med students are either straight out of undergrad or only 1-2 years removed. By the time we get back to 3rd year (assuming a 3-5 year PhD) not only are we a lot of times older in terms of actual age, but we're older in the sense that we've been beaten down, brutalized, and humbled by 4 years of grad school. I don't know about you, but for me getting pimped by that mean surgery attending in the OR just isn't that big of a deal after being grilled at national meetings by people who know 100x more than you ever will, or sweating through that oral qualifying exam, or defending that dissertation. That's what I meant by being more battle tested. Obviously there are exceptions (like you who already has a PhD and is older/more mature) but in general the MD/PHDers I know are more laid back, less stressed about grades/performance during 3rd year than their straight 3rd year med student counterparts. I guess the demographic of your med school is way different than mine.

 

[QofQuimica]

QofQuimica - "If anything, MSTP students tend to be younger and LESS mature than the average MD-only student." I find that sort of surprising...at my institution while we do have some non-traditional med students (e.g. older ones who have PHDs or MBAs or JDs) most of our med students are either straight out of undergrad or only 1-2 years removed. By the time we get back to 3rd year (assuming a 3-5 year PhD) not only are we a lot of times older in terms of actual age, but we're older in the sense that we've been beaten down, brutalized, and humbled by 4 years of grad school. I don't know about you, but for me getting pimped by that mean surgery attending in the OR just isn't that big of a deal after being grilled at national meetings by people who know 100x more than you ever will, or sweating through that oral qualifying exam, or defending that dissertation. That's what I meant by being more battle tested. Obviously there are exceptions (like you who already has a PhD and is older/more mature) but in general the MD/PHDers I know are more laid back, less stressed about grades/performance during 3rd year than their straight 3rd year med student counterparts. I guess the demographic of your med school is way different than mine.

I'd guess about half of my classmates are trads, which I'm defining as 0-2 years out of college (under age 25). The average age is about 24-25 for allo students, and that describes my class too. We run the gamut from people in their late teens to us fogies in our thirties. There are two of us who already have PhDs and at least one other non-trad who worked for several years in research as a BS-level tech before returning to school. There are also several students who got MS degrees of various types before med school. They're right at that age border between being trads and nontrads, so I guess they could go either way.

I'm an M1, so the MSTP students who came in with me are for the most part fresh out of college and very young. I think that's the main reason for the difference in our perspectives; I wouldn't really come into contact with older MSTP students who are on the wards already any more than I would with any other M3s. I think we're basically in agreement with regard to maturity and perspective; we're just talking about two different populations of MSTP students here.

 

[Vader]

I'm an M1, so the MSTP students who came in with me are for the most part fresh out of college and very young. I think that's the main reason for the difference in our perspectives; I wouldn't really come into contact with older MSTP students who are on the wards already any more than I would with any other M3s. I think we're basically in agreement with regard to maturity and perspective; we're just talking about two different populations of MSTP students here.

Although we often do not have time for these types of reflections, it is quite astounding to note and appreciate the personal transformation and degree of maturation through the graduate school training.

I am preparing to return to the wards very soon and am amazed to think of how different my perspective is now compared to if I had gone straight through the MD program.

There really is something to be gained from grad school other than simply those three extra letters after your name.

 

[greg12345]

Yeah, I gained 15 pounds and about 200 gray hairs. You will find that having gone through the PhD process also makes you appreciate/enjoy 3rd year more than your straight med student counterparts. After being stuck in the lab for 4 years troubleshooting gels/blots and playing with mice getting back into the hospital waiting for traumas to roll into the ED or running to codes in the middle of the night just seems exciting and fun, and way cooler than even your prettiest western blot. Once you get over the fact that you will look like an idiot almost constantly 3rd year is a lot of fun.

 

[Celeritus]

Although we often do not have time for these types of reflections, it is quite astounding to note and appreciate the personal transformation and degree of maturation through the graduate school training.

I am preparing to return to the wards very soon and am amazed to think of how different my perspective is now compared to if I had gone straight through the MD program.

There really is something to be gained from grad school other than simply those three extra letters after your name.

While I get the main thrust of what you're saying, I'm curious about what you mean, specificially. Would you mind expanding on this a bit more?

 

[Circumflex]

Yeah, I gained 15 pounds and about 200 gray hairs.

I hear you, man. I've been using this last part of 4th to try and reverse the effects.

 

[Vader]

While I get the main thrust of what you're saying, I'm curious about what you mean, specificially. Would you mind expanding on this a bit more?

Sorry--my post was a bit of a general musing.

A bit of what Greg was saying.

One of the largest (and most intangible) changes is the gaining of perspective. Greg mentioned how one appreciates 3rd year of med school differently after years of doing experiments--and I am greatly looking forward to this aspect.

You can really tell, even in graduate school, the difference between a new medical/grad student and more senior students. In both pathways, wisdom (or some semblance of it) is gained through experience. I know that I feel quite a bit different now, having almost completed my PhD, and probably manifest this in more mature behavior, more careful thought and consideration of problems. I know better what it takes to collect, carefully evaluate and analyze data, publish papers, get grants, defend my work, put together a complete story, network among peers, present findings, answer questions in a careful, thoughtful way, etc. Much of this gets summed up in "learning how to think like a scientist." But of course there is much more to this process, which often receives little attention, and therefore little appreciation.

There is also a feeling of accomplishment in having completed a long-term, large project that has contributed in some way to our understanding of the world, and perhaps down the road to disease-related applications.

The bumps and bruises along the way also go a long way in building emotional and intellectual resiliency ("whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" comes to mind). There is a whole interesting line of research on how experiencing stress in a controlled setting enhances an animal's mechanisms for dealing with future uncontrolled stress. I think this most definitely applies here.

Finally, going through this process has given me a new appreciation for listening to and understanding the experiences of others through careful observation and thought, qualities which I hope will be of value on the wards, during residency and in the future as a physician-scientist.

 

[TheCybermen]

Sorry--my post was a bit of a general musing.

A bit of what Greg was saying.

One of the largest (and most intangible) changes is the gaining of perspective. Greg mentioned how one appreciates 3rd year of med school differently after years of doing experiments--and I am greatly looking forward to this aspect.

You can really tell, even in graduate school, the difference between a new medical/grad student and more senior students. In both pathways, wisdom (or some semblance of it) is gained through experience. I know that I feel quite a bit different now, having almost completed my PhD, and probably manifest this in more mature behavior, more careful thought and consideration of problems. I know better what it takes to collect, carefully evaluate and analyze data, publish papers, get grants, defend my work, put together a complete story, network among peers, present findings, answer questions in a careful, thoughtful way, etc. Much of this gets summed up in "learning how to think like a scientist." But of course there is much more to this process, which often receives little attention, and therefore little appreciation.

There is also a feeling of accomplishment in having completed a long-term, large project that has contributed in some way to our understanding of the world, and perhaps down the road to disease-related applications.

The bumps and bruises along the way also go a long way in building emotional and intellectual resiliency ("whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" comes to mind). There is a whole interesting line of research on how experiencing stress in a controlled setting enhances an animal's mechanisms for dealing with future uncontrolled stress. I think this most definitely applies here.

Finally, going through this process has given me a new appreciation for listening to and understanding the experiences of others through careful observation and thought, qualities which I hope will be of value on the wards, during residency and in the future as a physician-scientist.

have to say -- what a great way of both looking at this and conveying its rewards to others...

grey hairs (or no hair) is a woe that is elusive as far as preventing them is concerned. but i try to hop on the treadmill or go for a few miles outside while the bacteria are incubating...it keeps me feeling fairly well.

 

[Celeritus]

have to say -- what a great way of both looking at this and conveying its rewards to others...

Agreed - many thanks, Vader.

 

[QofQuimica]

Yeah, I gained 15 pounds and about 200 gray hairs. You will find that having gone through the PhD process also makes you appreciate/enjoy 3rd year more than your straight med student counterparts. After being stuck in the lab for 4 years troubleshooting gels/blots and playing with mice getting back into the hospital waiting for traumas to roll into the ED or running to codes in the middle of the night just seems exciting and fun, and way cooler than even your prettiest western blot. Once you get over the fact that you will look like an idiot almost constantly 3rd year is a lot of fun.

Groan. I already "look like an idiot almost constantly" relative to all of these bio majors I'm in school with. When I took intro bio in 1993, scientists didn't even know yet about half of the stuff we've been learning in med school. And I'm not so good at doing Western blots; even the ones I got to work were definitely not pretty. I tried running some a few times just for fun over the summer. The lab manager trained me along with her undergrads, and I was scribbling down the steps as fast as I could while we went through the procedure. The first Western worked great. Naturally, of course, I missed writing down a few steps, and the next one didn't work. I finally got the third one to work on my own, and it was completely crooked. But it worked! That will be the last Western I ever run though. There's a good reason why I didn't get a PhD in molecular bio.

 

[1Path]

A bit of what Greg was saying.

One of the largest (and most intangible) changes is the gaining of perspective. Greg mentioned how one appreciates 3rd year of med school differently after years of doing experiments--and I am greatly looking forward to this aspect.

You can really tell, even in graduate school, the difference between a new medical/grad student and more senior students. In both pathways, wisdom (or some semblance of it) is gained through experience. I know that I feel quite a bit different now, having almost completed my PhD, and probably manifest this in more mature behavior, more careful thought and consideration of problems. I know better what it takes to collect, carefully evaluate and analyze data, publish papers, get grants, defend my work, put together a complete story, network among peers, present findings, answer questions in a careful, thoughtful way, etc. Much of this gets summed up in "learning how to think like a scientist." But of course there is much more to this process, which often receives little attention, and therefore little appreciation.

There is also a feeling of accomplishment in having completed a long-term, large project that has contributed in some way to our understanding of the world, and perhaps down the road to disease-related applications.

The bumps and bruises along the way also go a long way in building emotional and intellectual resiliency ("whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" comes to mind). There is a whole interesting line of research on how experiencing stress in a controlled setting enhances an animal's mechanisms for dealing with future uncontrolled stress. I think this most definitely applies here.

Finally, going through this process has given me a new appreciation for listening to and understanding the experiences of others through careful observation and thought, qualities which I hope will be of value on the wards, during residency and in the future as a physician-scientist.

THIS post is the reason I can walk into ANY conference or seminar and almost immediatelly tell who the MD/PhD folks are. But when I SAY that, some people, irronically NOT MD/PhD folks, "hear" me say MD/PhD's are smarter. Smarter, more intellectual, whatever, the approach to addressing clinical problems is almost certainly enhanced by looking at them from a "scientific" point of view, which I think MD/PhD training helps you do. And quite well, I might add!