Residence Recruitment Costs

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gutonc

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While digging around looking for something complete different, I stumbled upon this paper (warning...PDF) that surveyed PDs across all program types and specialties.

It costs (in 2008-9 season):
~$1000/interviewed applicant
~$10K/matched applicant
~$150K/program each year (depending on size...obvs)

Community programs spend ~2x/spot what Univ programs do.

I don't really have any commentary here, just kind of a fascinating assessment.

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While digging around looking for something complete different, I stumbled upon this paper (warning...PDF) that surveyed PDs across all program types and specialties.

It costs (in 2008-9 season):
~$1000/interviewed applicant
~$10K/matched applicant
~$150K/program each year (depending on size...obvs)

Community programs spend ~2x/spot what Univ programs do.

I don't really have any commentary here, just kind of a fascinating assessment.

Why are there about 100k taken from our salary?
 
These numbers are pretty flawed, IMHO. The vast majority of the costs are in salaries - PD, APD, and support staff. Those tend to be fixed costs -- they are required by the ACGME based upon the size of the program. If PD's simply got to pick applicants (like a sports draft), the costs would be the same (perhaps minus some of the food).

I am somewhat amazed that the food costs are as low as they are. Any program that sponsors recruiting dinners the night beforehand has food costs that are much higher than those listed.
 
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I am somewhat amazed that the food costs are as low as they are. Any program that sponsors recruiting dinners the night beforehand has food costs that are much higher than those listed.

I always wondered whether a program really wouldnt be just as appealing if they did these dinners on the cheap -- eg pizza and a keg at someone's house. Nobody is picking a residency based on how nice a dinner they get or what restaurant they get taken to.
 
I always wondered whether a program really wouldnt be just as appealing if they did these dinners on the cheap -- eg pizza and a keg at someone's house. Nobody is picking a residency based on how nice a dinner they get or what restaurant they get taken to.

You're right that the food at the pre-interview dinner doesn't affect an applicant's rank list, but the feedback I receive every year indicates that after a long travel day (or series of travel days), they really appreciate the opportunity to have a nutritious meal rather than snack foods. I think it sends a subtle "we'll take good care of you" message that helps them have positive feelings about the program, even if they don't end up here.
 
I always wondered whether a program really wouldnt be just as appealing if they did these dinners on the cheap -- eg pizza and a keg at someone's house. Nobody is picking a residency based on how nice a dinner they get or what restaurant they get taken to.

By far the most memorable dinner from the interview trail last year (out of ~17 interviews) was where the program just sprung for catered indian (just like, the big aluminum tubs) and hosted a dinner at one of the chief resident's houses. Then invited all the interviewees and a whole grip of current residents over, we ended up spending most of the evening sitting around chatting followed by a ginormous game of tabboo.

Willing to bet that was cheaper than what a lot of programs do, and it left me with an awesome impression of the camraderie of the residents there.
 
I always wondered whether a program really wouldnt be just as appealing if they did these dinners on the cheap -- eg pizza and a keg at someone's house. Nobody is picking a residency based on how nice a dinner they get or what restaurant they get taken to.

I agree that no on is going to select a residency based on how nice a dinner is.

But they might ding a program based on how nice the dinner is not.

If the pre-interview dinner leaves a metaphorical or literal bad taste in one's mouth...it's going to affect the overall impression of the program.

Plus I would say that the major reason for programs to have a high quality dinner (and/or lots of booze) is to incentivize their own residents to show up for it in a good mood. The resident turnout and resident attitude makes a huge difference.
 
I agree that no on is going to select a residency based on how nice a dinner is.

But they might ding a program based on how nice the dinner is not.

If the pre-interview dinner leaves a metaphorical or literal bad taste in one's mouth...it's going to affect the overall impression of the program.

Plus I would say that the major reason for programs to have a high quality dinner (and/or lots of booze) is to incentivize their own residents to show up for it in a good mood. The resident turnout and resident attitude makes a huge difference.

I suspect in most locales there are reliable cost-effective take-out options, and plenty of residents who will show up for free food/ beer. If you have to do something upscale to get enough residents to show up, or vice versa, then doesn't that probably telegraph something?
 
It's less than 150k. Closer to 100k. Sometimes a little more (varies from program to program).

Part of the money goes towards your benefits. A typical resident has a salary of ~50k, but I would guess total benefits are typically at LEAST 15k.

Then the program has to pay for the program staff. The ACGME requires at LEAST 50% of the program directors salary (and his/her time) be paid for by the program. If the program is above a certain size, they also have to provide salary support for the associate program directors. Then no matter the program size, they also have to pay the program administrators. And then the chief residents (who get no subsidy from Medicare).

That still leaves probably $20k or $25k subsidy per resident unaccounted for. What this money goes towards depends on who you ask. If you ask the AHA and similar groups (see the Mayo briefs in the "are we students or employees case"), residents make everything very inefficient and they need the money to subsidize that. For example, residents may keep patients longer and order more tests, therefore increasing LOS and hospital expenses when the hospital may be getting paid a flat amount for a specific diagnosis related group. On the other hand, you have groups like MEDPAC that say (more or less) residents actually make money for the hospitals and that the government subsidy is way too high (and should be cut, with some advocating for cuts as high as 60%). There's no real evidence either way on those claims, but that's the way the arguments go.
 
It's less than 150k. Closer to 100k. Sometimes a little more (varies from program to program).

Part of the money goes towards your benefits. A typical resident has a salary of ~50k, but I would guess total benefits are typically at LEAST 15k.

Then the program has to pay for the program staff. The ACGME requires at LEAST 50% of the program directors salary (and his/her time) be paid for by the program. If the program is above a certain size, they also have to provide salary support for the associate program directors. Then no matter the program size, they also have to pay the program administrators. And then the chief residents (who get no subsidy from Medicare).

That still leaves probably $20k or $25k subsidy per resident unaccounted for. What this money goes towards depends on who you ask. If you ask the AHA and similar groups (see the Mayo briefs in the "are we students or employees case"), residents make everything very inefficient and they need the money to subsidize that. For example, residents may keep patients longer and order more tests, therefore increasing LOS and hospital expenses when the hospital may be getting paid a flat amount for a specific diagnosis related group. On the other hand, you have groups like MEDPAC that say (more or less) residents actually make money for the hospitals and that the government subsidy is way too high (and should be cut, with some advocating for cuts as high as 60%). There's no real evidence either way on those claims, but that's the way the arguments go.

It's a lot higher than 100k. And benefits-what benefits? We have to pay our own health insurance, like 60 or 100 something bucks per check. We also have to pay parking AND food! So what benefits? Chief residents normally are given like 1k stipend, that's it, and they are typically in their final year so I think your statement is incorrect. My chief is simply the 5th year resident.

And residents make tons of $$ for the hospital, bc if there were no residents programs would have to pay attendings $$ to take care of patients, which would cost them a lot more.
 
It's a lot higher than 100k. And benefits-what benefits? We have to pay our own health insurance, like 60 or 100 something bucks per check. We also have to pay parking AND food! So what benefits? Chief residents normally are given like 1k stipend, that's it, and they are typically in their final year so I think your statement is incorrect. My chief is simply the 5th year resident.

And residents make tons of $$ for the hospital, bc if there were no residents programs would have to pay attendings $$ to take care of patients, which would cost them a lot more.

There's something like $9.6 billion total subsidy from Medicare that funds ~100k total residents. If you take into account all the subsidies (medicaid, state funding, VA money), you're still only getting about $13 billion. And there's something like ~112k total residents (many are not medicare funded). That's not counting the fellows either. Even if you stretch it quite a bit, you don't get to much more than $120-130k or so total subsidy per resident. And really, it's probably a fair bit closer to $100k than $150k. I'd love to see a citation saying otherwise. (Note that some programs get quite a bit less money per resident than others. Two thirds of medicare subsidy is "indirect" medical education funding, and that's not distributed equally. I don't know the specifics of how that formula is put together, but I know it's complicated.)

For the other points, if you think your $60/check covers your health insurance premium, I want some of what you're smoking. Not to mention it sounds like you're at a crappier program, because quite a few of them have much better benefits than that. Out of the 17 programs I interviewed at last year, 15 completely and totally paid for parking. Almost all of them had at least some kind of food subsidy, with a few hospitals basically providing up to almost $10,000 worth of food per resident per year (if you took advantage of the daily food budget). A large portion of them covered at least the cheaper plan for individual healthcare benefits in total, including my own. Trust me, if you add up even just the health/vision/dental/disability/life insurances, not to mention the employer portion of payroll taxes, you'd end up with AT LEAST $15k worth of benefits per resident per year. That's not counting the stuff like food.

You skipped right past all the (required by the ACGME) salary subsidies and nitpicked regarding chief residents. I meant in particular the chief residents in specialties like Medicine and Pediatrics, where they stay on an extra year as junior faculty members in administrative roles. Their salary needs to be paid for by the program. Mind you, that's chump change compared to all the program directors and administrators and such, but it is an expense.

As for whether residents make money for the programs, this is very controversial. A typical resident team in medicine handles ~15-20 patients. For that, you will frequently have 2 interns, a senior resident, and an attending. Mind you, the wards attendings will often have some other duties as well (administrative stuff, clinics, whatever), but that's still quite a bit of pay for the team. On the other hand, a hospitalist can see 15-20 patients alone with only one salary being paid. That hospitalist is a lot more confident in their care, and might get patients out with a lower length of stay and use less diagnostic tests. Depending on the insurance of the patient, that may actually get the hospital MORE money by using less diagnostic tests (if there's a global payment for a diagnosis related group, the hospital gets paid per visit, not piecemeal). As someone in a 5 year specialty (I presume something surgical), your patients are almost certainly getting the hospital money based on global payments. If you keep them a day longer than they would be kept in the community, that's costing the hospital (not the program) significant cash.

You can see a similar pattern in many specialties. A surgeon can most certainly do the procedure on their own (+/- a PA or other individual trained to primarily first assist) faster than walking the resident through it. Is the resident cheaper than a PA? Sure. But if the surgeon could conceivably fit an extra operation in each day, that more than wipes out the difference. Is it easier to be an academician when you have residents to do a lot of your scut? Yes. But they take lower pay for that "ease". Some of the difference in pay actually subsidizes the educational program (or so the claim goes).

I don't honestly know who's right. Maybe MedPAC is and the subsidies are too large and hospitals just pocket the difference. Maybe the hospitals are right and we overall cost them money. But you can't legitimately say the only expense in training residents is our actual salaries, that's utter nonsense.

Edit: Oh, and the malpractice insurance mentioned at the following post is a huge point. That's a major expense that probably chews up a fair bit of the subsidy.
 
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Don't forget hospitals/programs have to pay our malpractice too.. that gets expensive.
As far as $2k/applicantn this is very specialty dependant.. interviewing EM all we got was 1 decent meal and one cheaper meal..no hotels or rentals or other transportation provided. Def not 2k/app.
 
It's a lot higher than 100k. And benefits-what benefits? We have to pay our own health insurance, like 60 or 100 something bucks per check. We also have to pay parking AND food! So what benefits? Chief residents normally are given like 1k stipend, that's it, and they are typically in their final year so I think your statement is incorrect. My chief is simply the 5th year resident.

And residents make tons of $$ for the hospital, bc if there were no residents programs would have to pay attendings $$ to take care of patients, which would cost them a lot more.

It's not a whole lot higher than $100k. The big costs are resident salary, GME/administrative and PD personnel salary, and med mal. Smaller costs are things like book funds, supplies, recruitment costs, various books and databases the program pays for, meeting costs it reimburses, board and board review costs, chief resident stipends, subsidized benefits, 401k, etc. It can add up fast. Nobody is getting rich off of you.
 
Out of the 17 programs I interviewed at last year, 15 completely and totally paid for parking. .

Although I agree with most of what you are saying, most employees would not consider free parking at their place of employment a benefit.

I consider this arbitrary budget-shifting between the hospital and residency program, and not a true benefit.
 
There's something like $9.6 billion total subsidy from Medicare that funds ~100k total residents. If you take into account all the subsidies (medicaid, state funding, VA money), you're still only getting about $13 billion. And there's something like ~112k total residents (many are not medicare funded). That's not counting the fellows either. Even if you stretch it quite a bit, you don't get to much more than $120-130k or so total subsidy per resident. And really, it's probably a fair bit closer to $100k than $150k. I'd love to see a citation saying otherwise. (Note that some programs get quite a bit less money per resident than others. Two thirds of medicare subsidy is "indirect" medical education funding, and that's not distributed equally. I don't know the specifics of how that formula is put together, but I know it's complicated.)

For the other points, if you think your $60/check covers your health insurance premium, I want some of what you're smoking. Not to mention it sounds like you're at a crappier program, because quite a few of them have much better benefits than that. Out of the 17 programs I interviewed at last year, 15 completely and totally paid for parking. Almost all of them had at least some kind of food subsidy, with a few hospitals basically providing up to almost $10,000 worth of food per resident per year (if you took advantage of the daily food budget). A large portion of them covered at least the cheaper plan for individual healthcare benefits in total, including my own. Trust me, if you add up even just the health/vision/dental/disability/life insurances, not to mention the employer portion of payroll taxes, you'd end up with AT LEAST $15k worth of benefits per resident per year. That's not counting the stuff like food.

You skipped right past all the (required by the ACGME) salary subsidies and nitpicked regarding chief residents. I meant in particular the chief residents in specialties like Medicine and Pediatrics, where they stay on an extra year as junior faculty members in administrative roles. Their salary needs to be paid for by the program. Mind you, that's chump change compared to all the program directors and administrators and such, but it is an expense.

As for whether residents make money for the programs, this is very controversial. A typical resident team in medicine handles ~15-20 patients. For that, you will frequently have 2 interns, a senior resident, and an attending. Mind you, the wards attendings will often have some other duties as well (administrative stuff, clinics, whatever), but that's still quite a bit of pay for the team. On the other hand, a hospitalist can see 15-20 patients alone with only one salary being paid. That hospitalist is a lot more confident in their care, and might get patients out with a lower length of stay and use less diagnostic tests. Depending on the insurance of the patient, that may actually get the hospital MORE money by using less diagnostic tests (if there's a global payment for a diagnosis related group, the hospital gets paid per visit, not piecemeal). As someone in a 5 year specialty (I presume something surgical), your patients are almost certainly getting the hospital money based on global payments. If you keep them a day longer than they would be kept in the community, that's costing the hospital (not the program) significant cash.

You can see a similar pattern in many specialties. A surgeon can most certainly do the procedure on their own (+/- a PA or other individual trained to primarily first assist) faster than walking the resident through it. Is the resident cheaper than a PA? Sure. But if the surgeon could conceivably fit an extra operation in each day, that more than wipes out the difference. Is it easier to be an academician when you have residents to do a lot of your scut? Yes. But they take lower pay for that "ease". Some of the difference in pay actually subsidizes the educational program (or so the claim goes).

I don't honestly know who's right. Maybe MedPAC is and the subsidies are too large and hospitals just pocket the difference. Maybe the hospitals are right and we overall cost them money. But you can't legitimately say the only expense in training residents is our actual salaries, that's utter nonsense.

Edit: Oh, and the malpractice insurance mentioned at the following post is a huge point. That's a major expense that probably chews up a fair bit of the subsidy.

I am not in a surgical program, I'm in rads. We make around 55k, and the only benefit we have is health insurance and I think disability/death insurance. We pay like 60 bucks or something like that for insurance. Parking is charged by ALL the programs in the near vicity and trust me, the programs where I am are heavy hitters name wise. The other employees also pay for parking, not just residents - at my hospital and all surrounding hospitals. My program actually is the cheapest of all the other programs around when it comes to parking. We also pay for our food which I think is lame but so do the residents in the other programs nearby. I have rotated at even high end nearby programs and their residents are paying for food. And like someone said, parking is not a "benefit."

As far as chief residents, I don't know how it works in other specialties, I can only speak to my own. Our chiefs are regular 4th year residents who get a small 1-2k stipend added on to their regular pay.

As far as the PD, the person who is the PD is also a regular attending, with clinical duties just like the rest of the attendings. So even if they were not the PD, they would still work and get paid. So it's not like our Medicare $ is paying exclusively for them.
 
Don't forget hospitals/programs have to pay our malpractice too.. that gets expensive.
As far as $2k/applicantn this is very specialty dependant.. interviewing EM all we got was 1 decent meal and one cheaper meal..no hotels or rentals or other transportation provided. Def not 2k/app.

Agreed. Of all the rads programs I interviewed for, only one paid for one night hotel and that's it. No other program paid for hotel, any type of rental, etc. and most of the lunches were simple.
 
So I think we can all say this number is way skewed. Reduce the salaries you're already paying, the stipend to new residents you have to pay as a salary, etc the cost to recruit each applicant probably barely tips $200/applicant.
 
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