Residencies Combining

[pshock7]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Currently a senior in college waiting to hear back from schools. I have a DO school acceptance as of now and was just curious on the implications for residency if I choose to attend since the residencies will be combined when I graduate in 2020. I know there's probably no way of knowing how it's going to pan out just yet, but do you think it will be harder for DO's to match into competitive residencies now that they are all open to both MD's and DO's. Also, what would the best option for me be going forward? (i.e. taking USMLE/COMLEX, how is that going to work?) I know this is very hypothetical, just curious if anyone has any insight. Thanks!

 

[deleted407021]

I know there's probably no way of knowing how it's going to pan out just yet

This is the problem right now, unfortunately. Basically your answer.

It's been talked about a ton on the pre-osteo and DO student forums and there are as many opinions as people with two broad camps of "it might be good for DOs" and "it might be bad for DOs".

 

[GUH]

Currently a senior in college waiting to hear back from schools. I have a DO school acceptance as of now and was just curious on the implications for residency if I choose to attend since the residencies will be combined when I graduate in 2020. I know there's probably no way of knowing how it's going to pan out just yet, but do you think it will be harder for DO's to match into competitive residencies now that they are all open to both MD's and DO's. Also, what would the best option for me be going forward? (i.e. taking USMLE/COMLEX, how is that going to work?) I know this is very hypothetical, just curious if anyone has any insight. Thanks!

Not even the AOA leadership really knows what's going to happen. Either that or they have just been refusing to communicate it with the public. There has been absolutely no signal from them that they have even considered the possibility that it may be harder for DOs to match into competitive specialties after the GME takeover. So the only thing we can really do is wait and see what happens.

That being said, you will probably still match somewhere if you take the admission offer and become a DO.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Do not turn down the acceptance, this could potentially ruin your career unless you know for absolute certain that you can get into a MD school. Seeing as you only have a DO acceptance I doubt that this is the case.

And plan on taking both USMLE and COMLEX.

 

[Dustbowl12]

Take acceptance, celebrate and relax. DO GME expansion in 2015 was beautiful and the spots will be ready for ACGME.

 

[QueenJames]

Another one! *Dj Khaled Voice*

 

[Goro]

Come back in 2021 and we can give you an answer. I might be Professor Emeritus by then!

Look, you're going to be a doctor. At the bare bones minimum, you'll be in Primary Care. Is that so bad?

Currently a senior in college waiting to hear back from schools. I have a DO school acceptance as of now and was just curious on the implications for residency if I choose to attend since the residencies will be combined when I graduate in 2020. I know there's probably no way of knowing how it's going to pan out just yet, but do you think it will be harder for DO's to match into competitive residencies now that they are all open to both MD's and DO's. Also, what would the best option for me be going forward? (i.e. taking USMLE/COMLEX, how is that going to work?) I know this is very hypothetical, just curious if anyone has any insight. Thanks!

 

[pshock7]

Come back in 2021 and we can give you an answer. I might be Professor Emeritus by then!

Look, you're going to be a doctor. At the bare bones minimum, you'll be in Primary Care. Is that so bad?

Not at all, I'm honestly humbled and excited for the opportunity to go into the medical field. I have nothing against DOs and do not view them as a lesser field than MDs. I do, however, acknowledge that there is a stigma around the title and that it will require more work if aiming for certain specialties. I'm just trying to be realistic and get an idea of what my next four years will look like. Thank you for all of your feedback, I understand that it's impossible to predict. Just trying to see if anyone that has been in the osteopathic field for awhile had any insight based on their experiences.

 

[Goro]

The so-called stigma exists only among ignorant premeds, elderlyMDS and a couple of ******* residents on these forums.

Patients could care less about your title.,

Not at all, I'm honestly humbled and excited for the opportunity to go into the medical field. I have nothing against DOs and do not view them as a lesser field than MDs. I do, however, acknowledge that there is a stigma around the title and that it will require more work if aiming for certain specialties. I'm just trying to be realistic and get an idea of what my next four years will look like. Thank you for all of your feedback, I understand that it's impossible to predict. Just trying to see if anyone that has been in the osteopathic field for awhile had any insight based on their experiences.

 

[GrapesofRath]

The consensus on this forum in terms of trying to "guess" what the short term impact of the merger will be is that DO's will likely take a beating at the more competitive fields where those DO residencies are now open to MDs. Even if they still take many DOs, having say 30% of MDs in those residencies where it was previosuly 0%, still has a very real impact on DOs. In particular, those looking to be surgeons with the upcoming merger it's particularly advisable to try to go the MD route at all costs. The MD residencies with bias to DOs arent particularly likely to change that bias by and large. So for those MD programs that either flat out dont consider DOs or very rarely take them, that isnt likely to change. As for DO positives, there are many who suggest getting fellowships might be more readily accessible for DOs amongst other things. Likewise, plenty of fields that are still readily accessible to DO's will still be such.

The merging of residencies will cause many DO residencies to shut down as they dont meet the ACGME standards. You can look at this in two ways. In one way it means the training DOs will go through will on average be higher quality. The weak programs that are part of what create bias against DOs to some will no longer be there "dragging" down the DO name. But at the same time, closing DO residencies while continuously making more DO schools and having more medical schools also means the % of DOs who dont match into residency is very likely to go up. It could even go up to rather uncomfortable levels. The increase in unmatched DOs in particular is hard to estimate. But even what look like small increases, say from 3% unmatched now to 10% in 10 years is still significant.

As far as I know DOs will still have to take COMLEX in the future. In short I think all can agree in the long run this merger is for the better. But in the short term, a number of the biases DOs face certainly arent just going to magically evaporate. In fact the whole term "merger" is kind of a misnomer; in many ways its just a hostile take over of the MDs of the DO residencies, particularly in fields theyve been trying to pry.

 

[pshock7]

Good to know, I'm still not fully aware of residency match specifics and how fellowships work, so I guess my first step would be to do more research about that. But let's say I wanted to purse cardiology or nephrology, would this be a bit more attainable since an internal medicine residency I might pursue will likely be considered at a higher standard allowing me a better chance for fellowships? Sorry if I'm being naive or am at a point where I should know this already. I'm definitely going to take the DO acceptance if no options closer to home come up, but I'm just one of those people that likes having a plan/visual of what my next few years will look like.

 

[DNC127]

My thought is... why do people assume that MDs can just "take over" previously DO residencies? These residencies are ran by predominantly DO program directors. Isn't it logical to assume they will have a bias AGAINST MDs? Yes losing some of the "lesser quality" residencies will hurt chances for DO's, but I doubt that MDs are going to take over these residencies. My uneducated prediction is that DOs (motivated and highly qualified ones) who want to pursue fellowships after residency will benefit from the merger. Real losers of the merger will be IMGs and MD/DO's will feel no major effects.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My thought is... why do people assume that MDs can just "take over" previously DO residencies? These residencies are ran by predominantly DO program directors. Isn't it logical to assume they will have a bias AGAINST MDs? Yes losing some of the "lesser quality" residencies will hurt chances for DO's, but I doubt that MDs are going to take over these residencies. My uneducated prediction is that DOs (motivated and highly qualified ones) who want to pursue fellowships after residency will benefit from the merger. Real losers of the merger will be IMGs and MD/DO's will feel no major effects.

Personally I think the status quo will remain largely unchanged, with maybe an slight increase in parity over the next decade or so. DOs who would have matched a competative specialty or location previously will still match and those who wouldn't have probably won't. I think the real hit will be felt by the DOs who traditionally snuck into an AOA FM (example) program in some rural area, like the really low scorers and those with some red flags. They might find a little more trouble getting into programs because those low quality AOA programs will probably be gone

 

[gerges]

This is the problem right now, unfortunately. Basically your answer.

It's been talked about a ton on the pre-osteo and DO student forums and there are as many opinions as people with two broad camps of "it might be good for DOs" and "it might be bad for DOs".

Its funny to see how much theorizing goes around when it ultimately boils down to exactly this. The one thing I can't understand is how it can have anything 'worse' than a null effect for DOs. It would not make sense that the AOA would throw the people its meant to serve under the bus in this agreement.

 

[deleted731525]

My thought is... why do people assume that MDs can just "take over" previously DO residencies? These residencies are ran by predominantly DO program directors. Isn't it logical to assume they will have a bias AGAINST MDs? Yes losing some of the "lesser quality" residencies will hurt chances for DO's, but I doubt that MDs are going to take over these residencies. My uneducated prediction is that DOs (motivated and highly qualified ones) who want to pursue fellowships after residency will benefit from the merger. Real losers of the merger will be IMGs and MD/DO's will feel no major effects.

How so? If anything there will be more programs they can apply to.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How so? If anything there will be more programs they can apply to.

Because that assumes that former DO PDs will take high stat IMGs over DOs. There is a reason that most PDs avoid IMGs and former AOA programs will be no different. Not to mention this is actually one of the purposes of the merger

 

[235009]

The so-called stigma exists only among ignorant premeds, elderlyMDS and a couple of ******* residents on these forums.

Patients could care less about your title.,

Grow up. Your level of knowledge about the residency match is extraordinarily shallow and at the level of a pre-med.

The "merger" is a positive only for those above average DO students who participated in the AOA match just to play it safe and can now apply to ACGME residency programs without the risk of missing out on the AOA programs. This "merger" will likely be terrible for below average and particularly the lowest achieving DOs who were previously guaranteed a backdoor into residency through the AOA match. Now those programs will likely shut down and the ones that remain will have a torrent of more qualified IMG and FMG candidates. It's silly to just assume that PDs at these programs that have had to go through the scramble to fill will not jump on the opportunity to fill during the match by interviewing IMGs/FMGs with stats that are equal to or better than the residents they were getting and not have to go through the hassle and uncertainty of the scramble.

Its funny to see how much theorizing goes around when it ultimately boils down to exactly this. The one thing I can't understand is how it can have anything 'worse' than a null effect for DOs. It would not make sense that the AOA would throw the people its meant to serve under the bus in this agreement.

The AOA was forced into this "agreement" when the ACGME declared that AOA trained residents were ineligible for ACGME fellowships.

 

[gerges]

Grow up. Your level of knowledge about the residency match is extraordinarily shallow and at the level of a pre-med.

The "merger" is a positive only for those above average DO students who participated in the AOA match just to play it safe and can now apply to ACGME residency programs without the risk of missing out on the AOA programs. This "merger" will likely be terrible for below average and particularly the lowest achieving DOs who were previously guaranteed a backdoor into residency through the AOA match. Now those programs will likely shut down and the ones that remain will have a torrent of more qualified IMG and FMG candidates.

I'm experiencing deja vu I feel like I've seen this same exact discussion involving the same exact people before.

 

[IslandStyle808]

My thought is... why do people assume that MDs can just "take over" previously DO residencies? These residencies are ran by predominantly DO program directors. Isn't it logical to assume they will have a bias AGAINST MDs? Yes losing some of the "lesser quality" residencies will hurt chances for DO's, but I doubt that MDs are going to take over these residencies. My uneducated prediction is that DOs (motivated and highly qualified ones) who want to pursue fellowships after residency will benefit from the merger. Real losers of the merger will be IMGs and MD/DO's will feel no major effects.

There was a point where they were going to replace DO PDs with MD PDs, so in a sense the ACGME was trying to "take over." However, luckily it wasn't to be.

Yes, DOs will now benefit from the merger because those that go to former AOA programs will now be able to apply to ACGME fellowships. However, we don't know where these former AOA residencies land in the pecking order yet. The tier system dominates ACGME residencies and fellowships. Matching into a higher tier residency will mean an easier time matching into a fellowship. It is not like going to a former AOA residency now turned ACGME will substantially increase their chances. It is yet to be seen.

However, here is where the good news really lies. With these former residencies switching to the NRMP match system, it now means DOs can apply to both former AOA programs and ACGME programs without the repercussions of being dropped form the ACGME match. This will mean those stellar DO student can push the bounds with their rank lists. Thus matching into more competitive residency programs. This in turn will mean an easier time matching into competitive fellowships. It is the strongest benefit of the merger pre-residency.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Grow up. Your level of knowledge about the residency match is extraordinarily shallow and at the level of a pre-med.

The "merger" is a positive only for those above average DO students who participated in the AOA match just to play it safe and can now apply to ACGME residency programs without the risk of missing out on the AOA programs. This "merger" will likely be terrible for below average and particularly the lowest achieving DOs who were previously guaranteed a backdoor into residency through the AOA match. Now those programs will likely shut down and the ones that remain will have a torrent of more qualified IMG and FMG candidates. It's silly to just assume that PDs at these programs that have had to go through the scramble to fill will not jump on the opportunity to fill during the match by interviewing IMGs/FMGs with stats that are equal to or better than the residents they were getting and not have to go through the hassle and uncertainty of the scramble.



The AOA was forced into this "agreement" when the ACGME declared that AOA trained residents were ineligible for ACGME fellowships.

I agree with the top portion of your second paragraph, but not necessarily the bottom portion. The former DO PDs may take stellar FMGs/IMGs, but they just like ACGME program directors can also filter out those students. Initially we will probably see FMGs/IMGs taking these spots (more specifically the unfilled ones), but US schools are still expanding. So in another 10 years, that FMG/IMG filter could be used more often by the PDs of these former AOA programs. Only time will tell though.

 

[Dr. Death]

Its funny to see how much theorizing goes around when it ultimately boils down to exactly this. The one thing I can't understand is how it can have anything 'worse' than a null effect for DOs. It would not make sense that the AOA would throw the people its meant to serve under the bus in this agreement.

It's all about the money. The AOA has shown by reckless DO school expansion and lack of regulation on residency and schools that the almighty dollar is all it cares about. Who cares about the product? Give me that dough