Residency advice

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star.buck

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I’d like feedback and thoughts on a few things:

1. residency with extended inpatient shifts during 2nd year; excessive for real world family medicine, or great for learning and patient care?

2. Would connections to and training in high-reputation systems help future career options and contract negotiations?

3. How reliable is that “feeling” for choosing a residency, as it’s based only on 6 or so hours of interactions?

Any thoughts or suggestions from docs here? Thank you so much for any advice you have for me!
 
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I’d like feedback and thoughts on a few things:

1. residency with 24 + 4 hour q3 shifts during 2nd year; excessive for real world family medicine, or great for learning and patient care?

2. Would connections to and training in high-reputation systems help future career options and contract negotiations?

3. How reliable is that “feeling” for choosing a residency, as it’s based only on 6 or so hours of interactions?

Any thoughts or suggestions from docs here? Thank you so much for any advice you have for me!

1. Is that for multiple rotations or just a specific one or two? Q3 28s is rough. You never feel good at the end, your schedule is always messed up. That said, I've been through it, lots of people have been through it. I would only make a big deal of it if its a significant portion of 2nd year, and not just a few rotations.

I agree that the night float system is certainly more humane.

2. Meh, only in academia, and even then not really. You could always go for a Faculty Development fellowship (or apply outright) for academic jobs and if you have the drive, you'll be able to get the position you want. Its not like people are pounding the doors of those PD offices to get paid <1/2 of what attendings make for another year.

3. Pretty reliable, but you'll never get a sense of everything. The most important thing is the people. If people seem amiss or if something about the way it feels is off, I would trust that feeling.
 
I’d like feedback and thoughts on a few things:

1. residency with 24 + 4 hour q3 shifts during 2nd year; excessive for real world family medicine, or great for learning and patient care?

2. Would connections to and training in high-reputation systems help future career options and contract negotiations?

3. How reliable is that “feeling” for choosing a residency, as it’s based only on 6 or so hours of interactions?

Any thoughts or suggestions from docs here? Thank you so much for any advice you have for me!
Night float is better than q3 28s. And its necessity come down to what you're doing. Low acuity and less volume is not something you can compensate for by doing more hours. Whereas 50-60 hour weeks provide the same learning if they're very dense.
 
24 + 4 Q3 is a hell to the know, personally, but it all depends on career goals. If you're thinking hospitalist, I can see how that may be helpful. If you're thinking outpatient only like the majority of us, I fail to see how that can be helpful at all. Moreover, you're probably so damn tired all the time that the outpatient training that you really want/need will get underrepresented. Many inpatient heavy programs do so at the bidding of hospital administrators as it cuts back on the number of hospitalists they have to hire. They then feed you the line that being aptly abused somehow will make you a better doctor in the long run.
 
24 + 4 Q3 is a hell to the know, personally, but it all depends on career goals. If you're thinking hospitalist, I can see how that may be helpful. If you're thinking outpatient only like the majority of us, I fail to see how that can be helpful at all. Moreover, you're probably so damn tired all the time that the outpatient training that you really want/need will get underrepresented. Many inpatient heavy programs do so at the bidding of hospital administrators as it cuts back on the number of hospitalists they have to hire. They then feed you the line that being aptly abused somehow will make you a better doctor in the long run.
I don't think the level of outpatient exposure you need is necessarily high to become very good at it. Inpatient is a different ballgame given the drastically higher greater knowledge depth.
 
I also wonder if the 28’s would let me see more of the results and enable me to participate in decision making, whereas the night float’s I've been on as a med student seem to be more of a patient-sitting and let-the-day-shift-take-care-of-that scenarios.

The program that has the 28’s has off the charts resident satisfaction as well. I asked the residents if they felt overworked or abused, if they were cheap labor with those types of hours, they all said they preferred the 24’s over night floats for learning, life balance, and patient care. These would be 24+4 q3, for several months of inpatient after intern year. It’s the 24+4, then a recovery day, then a clinic day, then repeat.

Hmm, so just to clarify, you say start at 7AM Monday, work through 11AM Tues, have the rest of Tues off, and then work in clinic all day Wed, then repeat on Thurs? Total hrs aren't too bad, but that schedule would be a pain for me. Constantly having to go back and forth with clinic, having the service likely change quite a bit when you're off, etc.

The value of nightfloat is often that the buck stops with you. There's less staffing, you actually have time to review people, admit them, learn how the hospital works, etc. Even doing a 24+4 if you're handing off to other residents for 1.5-2 days, you're going to do some level of "let the day shift take care of that" because in the end, they are the ones that are dealing with those actions when you're gone. Plus, things run differently at night than they do during the day, so you have to weigh the benefit of doing something that may require further intervention without the necessary staff.

I definitely get the life-balance, but like I said, I personally wouldn't like all my inpatient experience to be like that.

It doesn't sound like abuse, but to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I question the "patient care" side. When you have the same teams in the AM and PM, that means that each patient has basically 2 residents taking care of them usually throughout the length of their stay (assuming most inpatient stays are on average 4-6 days). Switch that to a system where 3 residents trade 28s, and you already have more residents taking care of the same patient. I hope hand-off and documentation are good enough to account for that.

The other issue I see is continuity. Chances are you're not admitting people for a day and a half, if you are, that sounds like an Obs unit. So to me, you'd be missing out on a lot of their longitudinal management. You'd admit someone, and then the next time you see them they'd be stable and ready to DC. You don't see how they were managed day-to-day. Now if your service is such that you have a ton of time to delve into everything that happened when you were gone and learn why certain decisions were made, great, but that's not how our service runs with how busy and acute it tends to be, during the day its kind of a sprint.

That all said, its still only several months of 2nd year, so its not like its the entire time. Plus, if it means you don't have call outside of say holiday call, great! It probably also depends a lot on how busy those nights are. If most people are able to sleep a few hrs each night, that's one thing, but on our service you're lucky if you sleep 1 hr. Everyone is also different, so while I would hate 28s, you may not. Ultimately, you have to decide what you would like best. You could potentially get good training in each system, but you have to be truthful to yourself and decide what system will fit most with your learning style.
 
Hmm, so just to clarify, you say start at 7AM Monday, work through 11AM Tues, have the rest of Tues off, and then work in clinic all day Wed, then repeat on Thurs? Total hrs aren't too bad, but that schedule would be a pain for me. Constantly having to go back and forth with clinic, having the service likely change quite a bit when you're off, etc.

The value of nightfloat is often that the buck stops with you. There's less staffing, you actually have time to review people, admit them, learn how the hospital works, etc. Even doing a 24+4 if you're handing off to other residents for 1.5-2 days, you're going to do some level of "let the day shift take care of that" because in the end, they are the ones that are dealing with those actions when you're gone. Plus, things run differently at night than they do during the day, so you have to weigh the benefit of doing something that may require further intervention without the necessary staff.

I definitely get the life-balance, but like I said, I personally wouldn't like all my inpatient experience to be like that.

It doesn't sound like abuse, but to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I question the "patient care" side. When you have the same teams in the AM and PM, that means that each patient has basically 2 residents taking care of them usually throughout the length of their stay (assuming most inpatient stays are on average 4-6 days). Switch that to a system where 3 residents trade 28s, and you already have more residents taking care of the same patient. I hope hand-off and documentation are good enough to account for that.

The other issue I see is continuity. Chances are you're not admitting people for a day and a half, if you are, that sounds like an Obs unit. So to me, you'd be missing out on a lot of their longitudinal management. You'd admit someone, and then the next time you see them they'd be stable and ready to DC. You don't see how they were managed day-to-day. Now if your service is such that you have a ton of time to delve into everything that happened when you were gone and learn why certain decisions were made, great, but that's not how our service runs with how busy and acute it tends to be, during the day its kind of a sprint.

That all said, its still only several months of 2nd year, so its not like its the entire time. Plus, if it means you don't have call outside of say holiday call, great! It probably also depends a lot on how busy those nights are. If most people are able to sleep a few hrs each night, that's one thing, but on our service you're lucky if you sleep 1 hr. Everyone is also different, so while I would hate 28s, you may not. Ultimately, you have to decide what you would like best. You could potentially get good training in each system, but you have to be truthful to yourself and decide what system will fit most with your learning style.


All VERY good points, thank you! As I understood it, the 28's were on the regular inpatient side of things, rotating with 2 other residents. I hadn't thought of the fact that I'd not see the patients the 2 days in between my long shift, which is now quite an obvious hitch in the system. Thank you for bringing my awareness to this!

I guess we'll see what happens on Match day, this conversation has definitely helped. Thank you everyone for your input!!
 
I also wonder if the 28’s would let me see more of the results and enable me to participate in decision making, whereas the night float’s I've been on as a med student seem to be more of a patient-sitting and let-the-day-shift-take-care-of-that scenarios.

The program that has the 28’s has off the charts resident satisfaction as well. I asked the residents if they felt overworked or abused, if they were cheap labor with those types of hours, they all said they preferred the 24’s over night floats for learning, life balance, and patient care. These would be 24+4 q3, for several months of inpatient after intern year. It’s the 24+4, then a recovery day, then a clinic day, then repeat.
A great point was brought up above. So a patient is admitted by you but then you basically miss out on everything that happens for 2 days. and the constant back and forth of inpatient and clinic doesn't really allow for concentrated learning.

How good of a night float exp you have is entirely dependent on the patient population.
 
Slightly off-topic, but asking as a lowly second year here: what are the typical hours in residency for FM? As brutal as other residencies?
 
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Varies significantly from program to program. Under the new work hour rules, our interns were hitting 80 hours for 9 months. 2nd years only did that for 6 months, but 4 of those were night float months which are particularly unpleasant. 3rd year only had 4 call months which was nice.
 
Slightly off-topic, but asking as a lowly second year here, but what are the typical hours in residency for FM? As brutal as other residencies?
Any sort of inpatient block will have tough hours. If it doesn't, your training is in someway (very) deficient. Clinic blocks are 8-5. Other offservice is variable.
 
Any sort of inpatient block will have tough hours. If it doesn't, your training is in someway (very) deficient. Clinic blocks are 8-5. Other offservice is variable.

As an applicant, naturally I'd like to attend some residency where it's magically not brutal. That said, I was very wary of programs that specifically advertised "how we don't have to work a lot like those other programs."
 
As an applicant, naturally I'd like to attend some residency where it's magically not brutal. That said, I was very wary of programs that specifically advertised "how we don't have to work a lot like those other programs."
Find somewhere where you don't have useless hard rotations.
 
Any sort of inpatient block will have tough hours. If it doesn't, your training is in someway (very) deficient. Clinic blocks are 8-5. Other offservice is variable.

Is it because residents need that many sheer hours of training to learn? Especially if attending hours are considerably easier?
 
What do you mean useless though?
If you're in the NICU (and likely doing 65 hour weeks at least), that probably isn't going to help you. Nor is a surgical subspecialty that has you in the OR and/or shadowing. Although the latter may just be an easy rotation on purpose sometimes...
Furthermore, surgical specialty rotations in unopposed programs usually just have you shadowing and not doing much. So be wary of that.

Is it because residents need that many sheer hours of training to learn? Especially if attending hours are considerably easier?
An inpatient service is run 24/7 and for 365 days a year. When you go home, someone else (whoever it may be) has to be running that service. Meaning, someone is admitting your patients from the ER and someone is managing them on the floor.

So you come in and start early (lets say 7am) so that the night person can go home at a reasonable time. Then you stay until whatever time that you will signout your patients. If you just go home at 4pm, then who is taking care of your patients? Another resident, right? Sign out at 6pm, and the night resident comes on.
The point is, residents run the service 24/7 for 365 days a year. The hours are long simply because your inpatient service, just like the hospital itself, doesn't ever close down. And as long as it's there, residents have to be present.

Now "easy" inpatient FM residencies have a set up where the attending just signs out and residents go home early. That's an awful way to learn because it eliminates patient ownership, autonomy and many other things. Generally at those places, you aren't making the plan at all and are doing the attending's notes and other scutwork. You'll finish residency being as good at inpatient medicine as a July PGY2 from a good residency (if even that tbh). They also may not do call or nights; and that means you get little to no experience being autonomous.

As for whether those hours are necessary to become good (and not just necessary because they have to be), the answer is yes. You need lots of months on a very busy, high acuity and very high complexity inpatient service plus at least couple months in ICUs taking care of vented patients to become proficient at inpatient medicine.
 
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If you're in the NICU (and likely doing 65 hour weeks at least), that probably isn't going to help you. Nor is a surgical subspecialty that has you in the OR and/or shadowing. Although the latter may just be an easy rotation on purpose sometimes...
Furthermore, surgical specialty rotations in unopposed programs usually just have you shadowing and not doing much. So be wary of that.

Hol' up, for real? Why's that--they don't trust the residents to do anything on their own?
 
Hol' up, for real? Why's that--they don't trust the residents to do anything on their own?
Definitely not in community programs when you're seeing attendings' private patients. You may get to see them on your own, present, then go back in with the attending. But even that will depend on the staff and rotation (more so on things like cardio/pulm, less so with surgical rotations). University programs vary on this but generally you'll be seeing patients on your own to some degree and writing notes.

You'd actually be surprised how much shadowing there is in residency at bad programs. Even good programs will have you shadow a little bit here and there when you're offservice.
 
I rotated at a program that has no night float if that is your “less brutal residency” jam.

Honestly though, everyone will tell you that you learn a ton on night float. I definitely did on a sub-i i had to work a week of nights on.
 
I rotated at a program that has no night float if that is your “less brutal residency” jam.

Honestly though, everyone will tell you that you learn a ton on night float. I definitely did on a sub-i i had to work a week of nights on.

Honestly I've stopped asking people about call because unless it's a Q3 death march, everyone seems to adjust to either night float or whatever other call system their program uses.
 
Honestly I've stopped asking people about call because unless it's a Q3 death march, everyone seems to adjust to either night float or whatever other call system their program uses.

Interviewed at program that does a 24 like q4 and that seems like a lot
 
I rotated at a program that has no night float if that is your “less brutal residency” jam.

Honestly though, everyone will tell you that you learn a ton on night float. I definitely did on a sub-i i had to work a week of nights on.
A brutal overkill residency also will prepare you poorly. If you're always working and never have time to reflect on your work and to read etc, how are you learning?
 
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