Residency fires 8 residents!

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drinkwater

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Some medical students and residents are crappy. Rude, pushy, lazy. However, senior residents and faculty can be jerks, too.

The numbers seem too big, though.

Glad I'm not there (University of Texas, Houston). The number (8) is based on what I heard.
 
The question is, what was the point, and was it something reasonable?

Maybe there's a new program director. That's the only reason I can think of that isn't a huge red flag.
 
Samoa said:
The question is, what was the point, and was it something reasonable?

Maybe there's a new program director. That's the only reason I can think of that isn't a huge red flag.
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Even that sounds like it would still be a red flag. I mean 8 people!?!? The message must be "we only want 1 resident per year..."
 
Any more information? Was it upper levels? Categoricals or a specific subspecialty program (ENT) that was shutting down?
 
I'd be interested too.

The UTH Surgery program has pictures and names of their residents on-line from last year. Not that I need to know specifically WHO isn't coming back (because its none of my business) but 8 residents in one year is a pretty big deal.

TTIUWP!
 
They are not all first year but I don't know who. Guess I'll have to wait until the new roster is published.

The program director is not new. Dr. Potts has been there since I was a medical student applying for residency and years before that . I ranked it #1 and am glad I didn't end up there!
 
So I'm a categorical PGY-1 at said program. I'm aware of a few contracts not being renewed (I guess that's the same as being fired) but I only know about 3. That was a bit unsettling to all of us rookies, but we were assured that the program was fair and reasonable about the situation. Then there are a couple of categorical pgy-1s from last year that decided to go into FM and gas after their year ended. I happened to chat with them on their way out and they were pretty candid about choosing to do something else and not being forced out. I think that's abour par for GS. So that's all I've heard about; I don't know of any other firings, but I'll ask around. You can PM me, but I've been too busy getting steamrolled by CV surgery to do much finding out. I know there are different definitions of malignant, but I have not yet found the environment here to be malignant. I have been working my little tail off for the last two weeks, however.
 
So the explanation is probably:

several Prelim residents were not kept on (which is standard)
a couple of categoricals switched out to FM and Gas
a couple of categoricals didn't get rehired

A fair bit of movement, but not outrageous as the OP made it sound.
 
Yeah, the prelims and people switching out are pretty normal. Some prelims (like myself) weren't trying to get a general surgery spot, and wouldn't find a PGY 2 prelim year very helpful. But it's somewhat concerning when a program doesn't rehire the categoricals who wanted to stay.

And you never really know what happened with the people who switched to different fields. The program director will generally tell the resident what to go into, and you either do that, or you don't have a job the next year. It's very hardball.
 
Anasazi said:
we were assured that the program was fair and reasonable about the situation.
Click to expand...

Ah! well, as long as the program assures you that it was fair and reasonable about the situation them Im sure all is well. Its amazing how honest these programs are about just whats going on...why, just last year my program fired a person and my PD told me the powers-that-be just went, and I quote: "straight up bat **** crazy". So im sure if these residents were forced out for BS you would be filled right in.


BTW I have a bridge to sell you. CHEAP!
 
Winged Scapula said:
So the explanation is probably:

several Prelim residents were not kept on (which is standard)
a couple of categoricals switched out to FM and Gas
a couple of categoricals didn't get rehired

A fair bit of movement, but not outrageous as the OP made it sound.
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I was rooting for "residents involved in organ thief ring"
 
They aren't shy about getting rid of the residents who aren't up to snuff, but I can't see Potts firing 8 people. I'm sure it is as much people leaving as it is people getting fired.
 
The person who told me is reliable and doesn't make thing up to make their residency sound tough.

In my residency, I knew another resident that was called out of clinic to get fired. I saw him get called out and the chief said he was getting the axe but not to say anything. The next day or two, the guy said he wanted to go into anesthesiology. His optimism and cheeriness seemed false to me and also very sudden. I very much doubt he made the choice freely but was fired.

The people that changed to "better" residencies, like ortho, derm, ophthalmology may have made a decision without being fired but the anesthesiology and family practice people probably didn't.
 
Though I don't know any details, I know one of the residents that left. This particular resident is now a resident/critical care fellow at another university program, where I am starting a surgical critical care fellowship as well. Following this surgical critical care year, this resident is staying on at the same program to finish their general surgery residency. I did ask the other day and the impression I got, was this resident left and was not fired. Sounds like it was a pretty bad situation all around for all involved, but don't know any specific details.
 
I think my original report is true. 8 or so residents have been fired or shown the door. 😱

Of the people who are supposed to be PGY-4, where is E. Marshall? GONE!

Of the people who are supposed to be PGY-3, where is Ayanbulle, Byerly, Shah, Srour, Vendryes, and Walker. GONE! OK, some of them may have been prelim PGY-2 last year but only 2 PGY-2 made it to PGY-3 in a class of 6.

Of the categoricals who are supposed to be PGY-2, where is Longmier, Sridhar? GONE!

So is it PGY-3 (1 fired?), PGY-2 (4 fired?), PGY-1 (2 fired?). It looks like an inferno to me. Is the whole kitchen on fire? Or just the Potts and stove? :idea:

These names are not secret. They list them on the residency's webpage.
 
drinkwater said:
I think my original report is true. 8 or so residents have been fired or shown the door. 😱

Of the people who are supposed to be PGY-4, where is E. Marshall? GONE!

Of the people who are supposed to be PGY-3, where is Ayanbulle, Byerly, Shah, Srour, Vendryes, and Walker. GONE! OK, some of them may have been prelim PGY-2 last year but only 2 PGY-2 made it to PGY-3 in a class of 6.

Of the categoricals who are supposed to be PGY-2, where is Longmier, Sridhar? GONE!

So is it PGY-3 (1 fired?), PGY-2 (4 fired?), PGY-1 (2 fired?). It looks like an inferno to me. Is the whole kitchen on fire? Or just the Potts and stove? :idea:

These names are not secret. They list them on the residency's webpage.
Click to expand...

Well, I know for a fact that Walker is still there, and just entered the lab, since I talked to him less than a week ago....so you're at least partially FOS.
 
drinkwater said:
I think my original report is true. 8 or so residents have been fired or shown the door. 😱

Of the people who are supposed to be PGY-4, where is E. Marshall? GONE!

Of the people who are supposed to be PGY-3, where is Ayanbulle, Byerly, Shah, Srour, Vendryes, and Walker. GONE! OK, some of them may have been prelim PGY-2 last year but only 2 PGY-2 made it to PGY-3 in a class of 6.

Of the categoricals who are supposed to be PGY-2, where is Longmier, Sridhar? GONE!

So is it PGY-3 (1 fired?), PGY-2 (4 fired?), PGY-1 (2 fired?). It looks like an inferno to me. Is the whole kitchen on fire? Or just the Potts and stove? :idea:

These names are not secret. They list them on the residency's webpage.
Click to expand...

E. Marshall is gone, but I don't believe she was fired. The impression I have gotten is that she left because she was unhappy.
 
Potts, Andrassy and Dean Colasurdo might want to have a face to face about all this. Losing that many GS residents in such a short period of time, for whatever reason, has to affect clinical duties...
 
Of the 9 that you say were fired, 3 are doing research (2 at UTH and 1 in SF, Ca), 3 voluntarily left to do other specialties (ENT, FP, and Anesthesia), 1 left because of unhappiness with the program, and 2 were let go (as to the legitamacy of those, you'd have to ask their fellow residents).
 
See, I don't know what happens day to day as I probably mentioned in the OP. What I do see is some suspicious circumstances and, for the purposes of this post, shocking. 😱 I didn't know it until someone there mentioned the number, 8. My figures don't add up to 8 but it's high.

So people can claim, resident X was not fired, resident Z went to the lab, etc. However, there are a number of bodies, some of which I think were probably fried.
 
Luv Ya Blue said:
Of the 9 that you say were fired, 3 are doing research (2 at UTH and 1 in SF, Ca), 3 voluntarily left to do other specialties (ENT, FP, and Anesthesia), 1 left because of unhappiness with the program, and 2 were let go (as to the legitamacy of those, you'd have to ask their fellow residents).
Click to expand...

My source say 8, my counting couldn't determine who. Did I count 9?

The resident who you said is doing FP and Anesthesia is suspicious. The ENT resident, even if unofficially fired, will probably be happier in ENT as that is the best or one of the best specialties. Leaving because you are unhappy sounds suspicious unless you go into ENT or ophthalmology. San Francisco research is also questionable.

So based on the quoted post, the 2 UTH people have an excuse and the ENT person probably does (or else has ended up better off). The other 7 ended up worse. So the number could be 7 fired or 8 fired. However, even 1 is one too many. Medical schools don't always train medical students to be good surgery residents. It took me a year of internship to figure out some of the tricks that took me 20 minutes to pass along to the new interns. I wish someone gave me these tips. Of course, now I know them and I operate and function well!
 
SLUser11 said:
....so you're at least partially FOS.
Click to expand...

That type of bedside manner should get you fired. If you tolerate harrassment or display rudeness yourself, no mercy should be shown to you.

I am always considerate of the junior residents. They are given responsibility but are not slaves. Some of them go overboard the other way and treat the senior people improperly. I do not demand respect, simply courtesy and competence.
 
Even if 8 really left, why is that so suprising? The attrition rate hovers around 20%, always has, likely always will.

So, regardless of whether or not UTH is malignant (and the OP seems intent on proving that), I see nothing "suspicious" about a resident leaving general surgery for FP, Anesthesia or ENT. It happens ALL THE TIME, at lots of programs.

3 are in the the lab doing research. What is so suspicious about going to San Francisco to do research? Many residents go other places if they find they can get a better experience or work with someone they really want to even if that means leaving their home program. It happens ALL THE TIME, at lots of programs.

A 4th year resident leaving? A little less common, but again, its not a precedent. I'm not sure why leaving "because you are unhappy sounds suspicious". Unhappiness comes in all forms. It can be unhappiness with surgery in general, unhappiness with general surgery, unhappiness with life. It does not have to mean that the program sucks and people are forced out.

I don't know the UTH program from a hole in the wall but it appears to me that:

1) you have an axe to grind against UTH for whatever reason
2) you are making leaping bounds of assumptions
3) when your statements are proven false (ie, 3 out of the 8 "fired" went into the lab, which was expected after PGY2) you attack others

Unfortunately, not everyone is cut out for surgery. If programs see fit to fire individuals, then so be it as long as they follow standard procedures. It may not seem like it, but programs have to have a paper trail of problems before firing a resident; suing a program is not unheard of.

Prelim residents who didn't get hired on? Its unfortunate, but even categoricals are only hired for a year at a time. No one should expect to continue on if they aren't meeting the requirements; prelim residents in particular know the risk they are taking.

I'm not sure what being an intern or the way you treat you junior residents has to do with anything as it does not appear that it was interns who were "fired".

We're just as interested in this story as you are, but your apparent belief that some sort of lynch mob exists at UTH doesn't seem to pan out.
 
NB the attrition rate is 25% nationally per annum; 20% for male residents and 35% for female. Interesting, no?
 
BlondeDocteur said:
NB the attrition rate is 25% nationally per annum; 20% for male residents and 35% for female. Interesting, no?
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that.

I had included that data in my post above when talking about the 4th year resident who apparently left and that this is not so suprising, especially when you consider she's female.

But then I figured some would cry foul about that statement (even if the data backs up my assertion that females quit surgical residencies more often than do males). 35% seems awfully high to me though (given that I've only known 1 female to leave a surgical residency and have known several males). Guess most of them are at UTH, apparently! :meanie:
 
UT-H has a great reputation for recruiting female residents to the CS program, with a good percentage obtaining surgical fellowships.

I follow all the UT-H programs carefully, as I am a UT-H med-school grad. Not counting those in lab, I can not remember this many losses from the GS residency over such a short time frame, for whatever reasons - an anomaly? Hopefully.
 
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Danbo1957 said:
The numbers that I've seen infer that the attrition rate of catagorical GS residency spots between PGY-1 and PGY-5 (averaged over several years) is 15% - 20%.

Emory's 13-year period study:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/cursur/article/PIIS0149794404001345/abstract

Another abstract from Penn with a larger sampling:

http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI3031703/
Click to expand...

But when you separate out residents by gender, the female attrition rate is generally about twice that of males (27% vs 13% in the Emory study). There was a study reported out of Abington in Pennsylvania in the last few years with a female attrition rate of 32% as well.
 
Winged Scapula said:
But when you separate out residents by gender, the female attrition rate is generally about twice that of males (27% vs 13% in the Emory study). There was a study reported out of Abington in Pennsylvania in the last few years with a female attrition rate of 32% as well.
Click to expand...

Yep. One of the difficulties for GS residency PDs is to recruit females into the program knowing that several will be lost.
 
There is a very interesting book that was just published on the attrition through a surgical residency.

Getting Cut: Failing to Survive Surgical Residency Training by Virginia Adams O'Connell.
 
drinkwater said:
So people can claim, resident X was not fired, resident Z went to the lab, etc. However, there are a number of bodies, some of which I think were probably fried.
Click to expand...

Now, that's a tough program!!
 
Winged Scapula said:
I don't know the UTH program from a hole in the wall but it appears to me that:

1) you have an axe to grind against UTH for whatever reason


Unfortunately, not everyone is cut out for surgery. If programs see fit to fire individuals, then so be it as long as they follow standard procedures. It may not seem like it, but programs have to have a paper trail of problems before firing a resident; suing a program is not unheard of.
Click to expand...

These assumptions and conclusions are wrong.

Axe to grind against UTH? I thought I liked the place and ranked it #1. The only reason I kept up with the place and someone there is because I ranked it #1.

Instead, I went to a different malignant place. People fired right and left. Some of the fired people were good residents. Some of the people who were not fired were lousy. One of those who finished just before I came was rumored to be a jerk and later got into hot water with the medical board but could have been avoided had he not been a jerk.

As far as a paper trail, I was once pressured to write a letter to create a paper trail to roast someone. A professor asked the chief and me and probably others to write a bad letter...it was an order. Yes, sir. The guy was bad but not that bad. In this way, am I guilty of war crimes?

Later, I changed to a different program. Whether or not I was forced out is beyond the scope of this post. The new program...very nice. You have to work hard but just do the job, be civil to others, and everybody finishes the program.

So I am very suspicious of the program when they claim that all these people who left all left because they wanted to. And North Korea is a democratic :laugh::laugh: country, after all, isn't their name the PDRK or something like that (People's Democratic Republic of Korea). Knowing what I know now, the bad programs really fooled me during the interview trail. When I interviewed at where I did my internship, they also claimed that everyone who left did so because they wanted to. Fat lie. Luckily I ended up where I am now.

I read an article in USA Today in January or February about the shortage of surgeons. A chairman said it was getting someone harder to get medical students to go into surgery. Malignant behavior does hurt the profession. Some medical students are sharper at detecting this than I was.
 
No one is arguing that malignant residency programs don't exist. We all know they do. Please stop trying to change the focus of the argument which is about UTH in particular. If you want to talk about malignant surgical programs, that's fine, but all your posts have been about UTH in particular.

My problem with your arguments is your insistence that all the residents were fired or forced out. You persist with this argument even when faced with information that 3 went into the lab to do research, a VERY common occurence in academic surgery residencies. In addition, it is not uncommon, especially for females to leave surgery for another field. Finally, you have NO proof, that I can see, that the residents who left were forced to. Its ok to post a concern about something strange going on with a program but to insist that the changes are due to something nefarious seems a bit of a stretch when you are not a resident there.

Now I will contend that 8 in 1 year seems a bit much, but when you break down the numbers it doesn't really prove that UTH is malignant or that something bad is going on. That being said, UTH has long had a malignant reputation which was probably earned at least some point in time. This is well known in the surgical world; so I"m not so sure why this is a suprise unless no one told you when you were ranking programs.

You've obviously had a hard time in residency and for that I am sorry, but the person making assumptions here is YOU not me.
 
drinkwater said:
That type of bedside manner should get you fired. If you tolerate harrassment or display rudeness yourself, no mercy should be shown to you.
Click to expand...

drinkwater said:
These assumptions and conclusions are wrong.

Axe to grind against UTH? I thought I liked the place and ranked it #1. The only reason I kept up with the place and someone there is because I ranked it #1.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not sure that you disproved an axe to grind by stating that you ranked them #1 and didn't get in........

While I agree with you that malignant programs are not good for the future of surgery, you really need to drop this. You're getting overly-defensive, very contradictory (like saying that I should be fired from my program in the same breath that condemns UT for doing it), and your numbers are just plain wrong.

UT-Houston is old school and malignant, but most people with their heads out of their butts could pick up on that relatively quick. Like Socialist said, they're not shy about firing residents.
 
SLUser11 said:
Well, I'm not sure that you disproved an axe to grind by stating that you ranked them #1 and didn't get in........

While I agree with you that malignant programs are not good for the future of surgery, you really need to drop this. You're getting overly-defensive, very contradictory (like saying that I should be fired from my program in the same breath that condemns UT for doing it), and your numbers are just plain wrong.

UT-Houston is old school and malignant, but most people with their heads out of their butts could pick up on that relatively quick. Like Socialist said, they're not shy about firing residents.
Click to expand...

Knowing what I know now, I am glad that I did not go there. I should have ranked it about the middle, not #1.

My numbers are not plain wrong. I was alerted to this from someone in that department. Call them a liar, not me. Over the past year or two, I begun to think of the place as slightly malignant but now I think the place is very malignant. UTH did not strike me as lying a lot during interviews but some places that even I know were malignant went out of their way to insist that "all our residents are happy". One program which I don't think is malignant but is a bad program had a resident who insisted that they were "the best program in the country".

One important quality of a program that I only recent learned is that it is very important to have a lot of bread and butter cases and at least one faculty member that has outstanding operating ability and teaching ability. Learning to do common operations very well, even the little details like good access, meticulous wound closure, good hemostasis and (if applicable) excellent local anesthesia is very important but often overlooked. In contrast, another attending specialized in braille surgery, operated under the pool of blood.

Those attendings who say "that resident doesn't have the personality to be a surgeon" or "isn't one of the boys" are often the ones that are not good technical surgeons. It was one mild mannered, low keyed attending that I crossed paths with who taught me many of the practical tips and tricks. One tip was painless local anesthesia, how to do surgical cases as well as procedures like chest tubes and central lines that are completely painless to the patient. No more wiggling and groaning.
 
"Painless local anesthesia" and "completely painless to the patient"? Dude, your becoming more and more incredulous.

L2C
 
I blame the Germans.
 
Did you mean to say "Djurrrrrrmans"?

Ja, genau!
 
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