Residency hours?
- Thread starter TriGirl78
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 272
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Podiatry Student
in short, yes.
also, use the search function
also, use the search function
I had searched previous threads but didn't get quite the info I needed. Basically, I am trying to determine if you can specifically pick from residencies that are more of a, say, 60 hour a week residency. Are students somewhat able to gauge/determine ahead of time how many hours a specific residency will require you to work? Now that I sound like the laziest person, I must explain that I'm asking because I'm not always physically able to take 80+ hour work weeks. Skipping a night's sleep here and there isn't bad, but all the time leads to physical disaster for me! So, if I could avoid insane 80+ hour residency weeks, I won't have any problems. I'd appreciate any feedback, especially from people that are in a similar situation.
Before residency, there arrives a special time for each pod student when they will learn to function - pretty darn well - with relatively little sleep. It begins in a magical time called "3rd year"... and even moreso in "4th year." 😀
Joking aside, there are F&A residency programs where you will be run ragged. Bear in mind that pure weekly hours do not tell the whole story. 10hrs per day of outpatient clinic is nothing, 10hrs of hospital floor duties (rounds, ER calls, consults, etc) or academics becomes a bit more taxing, and 10hrs hours in a row of OR surgery is a downright killer (mentally and physically). Most resencies are a mix of all those things, but each one has different proportions and emphasis.
You do clerkships during 4th year to spend a month at a hospital with a residency program. Residency is a very important decision, so I think it's best to pick a school that gives many clerkships before residency interviews and then pick clerkships where you think you want to do your residency.
Residencies come in all flavors and types:
-laid back... (~40-60hrs per week... usually bare minimum training, esp in the OR)
-tougher (~50-70hrs per week... usually avg to very good training depending where you go)
-"high powered"... eat/sleep/breathe podiatry for 2-3 whole years (~70-100+ hrs per week... usually good to excellent training).
Out on 4th year clerkships, you will gain a lot of insight on programs and realize what you want. Do you want the tip top training at the possible expense of your personal life (family, friends, hobbies, etc?). Do you want to risk minimal training and competency in exchange for an easy residency? If you're anything like me, you will come to realize that you want the solid, practical residency training... while still having time for a decent life outside the hospital. That kind of residency program is certatinly out there and available in podiatry.
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,669
- Reaction score
- 16
- Points
- 4,691
- Location
- Southwest
- Attending Physician
Depending on the residency, you can have very crazy hours. It all depends on call schedule as well as surgical volume. I've had some crazy weeks and some weeks that weren't bad. Generally speaking, as you progress in residency, your hours get better.
Thanks guys! This is some awesome feedback. I love medicine/health stuff so I know without a doubt I want to be in this field, but I'll just start passing out if I keep going with little sleep and unhealthy habits...LOL. I don't want to have that happen, but luckily since I've been doing triathlons and stuff, it has become a very rare situation when I eat pavement. I just want to make sure I'm not going to be expected to work 2 years at 60-80+ hours because at some point I'll need a break of maybe 50-60 hours a week 🙂
yeah I totally agree with you jonwill....I've had days where I've operated from 0730 to 1230 that night, worked 48 hours nonstop, and not seen my wife for a week (late nights, academic meetings, etc..)....but i've also had shorter days. It just depends on the program. The crazy work hours usually come in waves.
Personally, I'll be looking for a "family friendly" residency..(That is, if they exist)...I don't mind putting in 50-60 hours a week but I can't even imagine spending a week away from my wife and kid for that long, especially if it can be avoided...I don't think working 80+ hours a week is healthy for people with families.....I'm not saying I'm looking for the "laid back" residencies, but I would like one where they do emphasize "family-time" issues......I mean....I'm dedicated to the profession and want to become a competent podiatrist but there has to be a line drawn somewhere ...
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,669
- Reaction score
- 16
- Points
- 4,691
- Location
- Southwest
- Attending Physician
I don't think working 80+ hours a week is healthy for people with families.....I'm not saying I'm looking for the "laid back" residencies, but I would like one where they do emphasize "family-time" issues......I mean....I'm dedicated to the profession and want to become a competent podiatrist but there has to be a line drawn somewhere ...
I have a wife and three small children and I understand what your saying. But I have a bit of a different opinion. Residency is 3 years long. In my opinion, I think one should seek out the residency with the best possible training. That usually means fairly long hours. And it is a bit tough on families. But I also believe that it is in the best interest of my family that I do this. Why? Because it is only three years and this next three years will determine the rest of my AND my family's life. It will determine my abilities as a surgeon and job offers. Better trained generally = more opportunity for me and my family.
Sure, there are times when I don't get to see my family a whole lot and it does suck. But there are also breathers where my hours aren't so bad. But the main thing is that I'm getting phenominal training which will lead to phenominal job options. In the end, I can choose what I want to do and what type of hours I want to work. Training, training, training!! And quite possibly, a family UNFRIENDLY residency is much more likely to equal a family FRIENDLY career!
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2007
- Messages
- 214
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,571
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
- Website
- www.thecoreinstitute.com
- Attending Physician
Take it from an attending who has been out and practicing for the past 7 years. As Jonwill has alluded to, get the three years of training at a "high powered" program. The sacrifice that you put in for those three years will pay off hundred fold for you and your family as far as a job offer is concerned. It can make a difference in the quality of life that your family will have after residency.
Yes it is a sacrifice for you and your family, but that is what residency is all about. Long hours might seem daunting and "icky" but what you get out of that training will help you become that more proficient in performing surgery. Remember once you are out of residency the responsibility of taking care of that patient falls on your shoulders. And that weight does feel pretty heavy on the day you have that first surgery. But with all that excellent training, you will breeze through it as if you had your attending right there next to you.
IMHO.
Yes it is a sacrifice for you and your family, but that is what residency is all about. Long hours might seem daunting and "icky" but what you get out of that training will help you become that more proficient in performing surgery. Remember once you are out of residency the responsibility of taking care of that patient falls on your shoulders. And that weight does feel pretty heavy on the day you have that first surgery. But with all that excellent training, you will breeze through it as if you had your attending right there next to you.
IMHO.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
This is one of the best posts I've seen on here in awhile.
Your program is very busy, but it's also a no-nonsense, functional training program. I really liked how you guys, like the other Det area programs that I saw, go in, do your rounds/cases, and then get home (and and be on call if it's your night). There is very little "busy work" or standing around.
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 396
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- The Cornhusker State
- Podiatrist
Keep in mind that all programs will be three year in length very soon. I think that as the residency requirements continue to be standardized over the next coule of the years most of the "counrty-club" programs will go away or have to become more demanding. Like Jon said even the best programs have days that arent bad, but keep in mind the majority of programs are hard work. It's only three years though. I've only got 33 more months to go before I can sleep again.😴
2
215512
Once I get to that point-speaking from a single guys perspective-im for sure going to do the "high-powered" residency...how else can you expect to be far better than your competition-shoot I'd go 100 hours/week for three years to be a top resident and get the best job afterwards-but i mean i dont have a family either =)
You're failing to grasp one of the most important rules of business world: The "best job" is working for yourself.
DPM #1 takes a job out of residency for $200k (you need a "high power" residency for this, BTW)... good for him. In 10yrs, maybe he'll be up to $250k or $300k. His employer (hospital, office owner, physician group owner, etc) is making $400-$600k per year off of him (therefore 200-400k net after he pays the salary).
DPM #2 starts up on his own - or maybe with a partner - right out of residency. He did a residency that got him good, solid skills, but not necessarily a 100hr per week killer program. He takes out even more loans (on top of his student loans) buys out a retiring pod, rents his office, buys all new equipment... doesn't matter which. For the first few years, he doesn't have many patients and is only making $75-150k. However, he keeps investing and marketing his practice... after 5-10yrs of building his practice, he's making $500k ... and up and up after that.
Which would you rather be?
If you want to be DPM #1 on salary, I will probably be glad to be DPM #2 and hire you 😉
Sportspod and Jonwill are on the same mindset as myself. I'm at Penn-Presby, and as a 1st year I've averaged honestly 80-100hrs/wk no problem or joke. I did floor duties in the month of August, and was going out of my mind. I worked 33 days straight and lost 10 lbs from always running the in-patients, taking ER call and consults for the whole month. I was the first 1st year to go and definitely made enough mistakes and angered many doctors/nurses, but I'm glad I lived through it. Presby's a 4-year surgical program completely part of UPenn, which empowers it to allopathic medical excellence with name and training. We're extremely academic, but with 14 residents we still easily get our numbers. You'll probably hear me complain a lot this year, but it only gets better as the years go on. And, I did have chances to rank some of the "cookie cutter" or "country club" residencies, but boy am I glad I didn't.
I couldn't agree more. Money is nice (really nice) but what has made me happiest is having lots of control over my job. I don't mean I'm a control freak, but I like being able to say, "I want to go on a vacation...block my schedule" without having to check for remaining vacation leave or having to ask permission. If I want to take a day off I take it. If I feel like going biking or snowboarding I block the day without worrying about how it looks to any Supervisor or Administrator. If my child is sick I can bring her to the office and no one can give me a hard time about it. If I want a new laptop I buy it. If I hate my desk I get rid of it. If I want to change how I practice I do it. That kind of freedom is golden.
Nat
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 272
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Podiatry Student
I like your style! I hope to operate like this someday.
And maybe most importantly, I can post on SDN and any website I please without stern warnings from Management!
Between this and the VA joke in the other thread, you're killin me, man 
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2007
- Messages
- 214
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,571
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
- Website
- www.thecoreinstitute.com
- Attending Physician
You always had a tendency to operate above the "management".
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Haw! Yeah, perhaps...
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2006
- Messages
- 13
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Podiatry Student
I agree that getting a solid training is important in residency. However, many of you men have sad that you do have to sacrifice your families for a few years. Well what if you are the female in the relationship and wish to have children during residency. Is it possible to be pregnant and work 60-80 hours minimum during that time- I would think that could result in major overexhaustion. Is there anyone on here with that type of situation who can comment on what kind of program you went to?
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 12
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
I sure hope there are residencies as you describe. I'm in my third year of school right now, and there are about a dozen mommies in my class that are going to be interested in seeing their children every day. Of course I understand it's going to be a sacrifice...and I won't get to spend as much time as I'd like with my son, but I also don't plan on being gone from 5am until midnight every day, no way.
My wife and I had our first child when she was in Residency (she's a DO). She was doing similar loooong hours and it was difficult on her, but we had daycare and I was in private practice so I could take part in child care. On her call nights I'd meet her in their call room with our daughter so they could nurse and see each other for at least a little while that shift.
I think that if you are a woman who wants to have a child during Residency, then you'd need the father to step up and pull his weight or have a strong social support network to help. If a woman wants to, she can have a kid and work. Family, friends, day care, and nannies can help.
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 396
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- The Cornhusker State
- Podiatrist
St Johns in MI has had a number of pregnant residents in recent years, so I guess some programs are willing to work around it.
From what I saw at StJohn, there was only one resident (now graduated) who had children during residency. Her logs were still quite adequate, but she finished with significantly fewer total procedures than the other residents who graduated with her. Sure, some of the male residents' wives were having or already had children during the residency, but that goes on at almost any top program you visit and I don't think it significantly effects their quality of work or makes them take an appreciable amount of time off (maybe just a couple days).
I also try to keep in mind that 2005-07 were years with a much lower ratio of pod grads to residency spots. During those match cycles, a lot of programs had to drop their sandards a bit, go to scramble, choose between leaving spots unfiled versus taking poor students, etc. When cold weather big city programs (Cleveland, Det, Phila, NY, Pitt, etc) probably get less apps than they deserve to begin with, a small app pool certainly compounds matters. For better or for worse (residency shortage?), that trend is now reversed. I'd imagine that most/all programs offering good training should be able to select high quality incoming residents for at least the next 5yrs based on the projected pod grad numbers.
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 218
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 218
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
- Messages
- 2,167
- Reaction score
- 10
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- California
- Fellow [Any Field]
Work hard in school.
Learn more than the minimum, learn more than what it takes to get good grades. By this I mean read McGlamry's not just the class notes. Read journals like JAPMA, JFAS, FAI, JBJS and Clinics. If you would like add in Diabetes Care, Trauma, Injury, JAMA, NEJM, JVascSx....
Volunteer for things that interest you that also involve podiatry (races, health fairs, mission trips)
Apply for externships for the educational experience as well as because you may want to be a resident there.
On your externships offer to help but don't be over bearing or annoying. Be youself. Enjoy the learning experience and act interested. Always have something to read during down time - a journal article. Ask questions - do not be afraid that you will be asked a question in return - this is the learning process. There are certain things that students should know, but you are not expected to know everything. Read the night before for a procedure to know at least the indications for the procedure, the specific risks and benefits to that procedure, other options for the procedure, the potential complications and sequelae, the basics of the techniques, and the history or origins of the procedure.
I hope this helps. It is not a sure fire way to get a program but it should assist.
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 218
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
^^Thanks for that input krabmas very helpful
Feli you said a DPM with a high powered residency could be offered a position with $200k salary. However, my podiatrist said this is extremely rare, even impossible. I am not saying you or him are right. I just want to know your thoughts about what he said.
Is it that rare for a pod to be signing a contract with an insurance company for that much money?
Feli you said a DPM with a high powered residency could be offered a position with $200k salary. However, my podiatrist said this is extremely rare, even impossible. I am not saying you or him are right. I just want to know your thoughts about what he said.
Is it that rare for a pod to be signing a contract with an insurance company for that much money?
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
That'd be an offer that is significantly above average, but it's certainly not impossible.
Things vary based on region of the country (more/less need to attract docs), saturation, and residency training. You also have to consider the the total package of an offer (base salary, incentives, benefits for self and family, equity in the practice, perks and incentive bonuses, etc etc etc). Most of all, take into account the training "my podiatrist" had in comparison to a top PMS36 (+/- fellowship), the practice climate where "my podiatrist" practices (supply/demand), etc. Is he an expert on current DPM training, contract negotiations, etc, or is he just talking? Those are things to think about.
First and foremost, you just have to pass gross anat. 😀
FYI, pods don't "sign contracts with insurance company worth" any certain dollar value. Insurance company contracts just tell you what they'll pay for each type of office visit, procedure, etc. They don't offer a specified annual salary or anything like that. I suppose there are those stupid plans that give their docs $1M to take care of 500 patients/yr or something (the doc gets to keep what's left), but those are pretty darn unethical IMO.
Last edited:
