Residency interview dinners.

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SansaStarkMD

SansaStarkMD

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I don't want to f****** go. I don't care if the food is free. I hate small talk with strangers that I'll most likely never see again. I get along with everyone. I don't need to feel out "vibes."

How much does not attending move me down on the rank list, if at all?

P.S. Please answer my question or just stfu. I don't need people judging me. Thanks!
 
When I interviewed at Mayo for Derm, it was great. The residents hosting us basically said "Ok, last week the applicants ate $____ worth of food - it's up to you guys to top that! If you can't decide between the steak or the lobster, get both. Want dessert? Get two! If you're getting a beer, go for the big one."

I didn't feel bad because, at the root of things, the meal was basically being financed by some hoighty toighty Saudi kings/princes for sure.
 
SansaStarkMD said:
I don't want to f****** go. I don't care if the food is free. I hate small talk with strangers that I'll most likely never see again. I get along with everyone. I don't need to feel out "vibes."

How much does not attending move me down on the rank list, if at all?

P.S. Please answer my question or just stfu. I don't need people judging me. Thanks!
Click to expand...


Depends on the specialty and the program. The dinners are often times the most people get to talk to you so we always discussed them at rank meetings. People could move up a lot if people liked them or move down if people didn't. When I was in residency applicants had two faculty interviews and got a grade or ranking. Then a large portion was what the residents thought of them from lunch or dinner. Essentially if you didn't talk much or people forgot you no input was placed at this stage and your whole factor in the rank listing would be based on the interviews. If you know your going to rub people the wrong way because you hate the idea of doing it then you would certainly be better not to go. When people were weirdos or rude at the dinner they literally could go from rankable to non rankable. Sometimes I felt that it was a bit petty what other residents said to make people non rankable from the dinners. I generally only added to the convo if I liked them or they were the creepiest person I met in my life.

When I interviewed I tried to make the dinner but some were just impossible. I don't know if it affected anything.
 
Do your best to go. The best ones are those that are resident only without faculty - gives you a chance to really get a sense of what goes on there.

Also, if you get along well with the residents, there may be a time for them to speak up on your behalf come rank time. There is at my place.

However, make no mistake, you are being judged, and if you get hammered, are rude, or in some other way make an a$$ of yourself, it will hurt you.
 
I was told by the PD at my institution that they are basically non-optional. For that interview the invite even said to try to reschedule if you couldn't make the dinner. I think they are pretty important.
 
You should really make an attempt to go. It's an opportunity to interact with the current residents and for them to interact with you.
 
I hear that dinner fatigue sets in before interview fatigue. Applicants just stop caring and start skipping the dinners. I'm about ready to do that myself, even though I plan to interview up to xmas.

What I'm getting really sick of is the delicate alcohol dance at these functions. Do you want a drink? I don't know... are you having one? Are any of the residents drinking? Why weren't they asked first, dammit? Am I going to be "that guy" that has a drink and then nobody else does? It's the second half of November already, do I even care anymore?

At least at my home program interview it was with all locals, and we thoroughly explored every nook and cranny of that cocktail menu.
 
I've seen people say they've matched at a place they were unable to make the dinner for. I think it's just going to vary by the program. At my last interview the PD asked if I was able to make it to the dinner the night before and when I said no, he looked visibly displeased. Oh well.
 
sazerac said:
I hear that dinner fatigue sets in before interview fatigue. Applicants just stop caring and start skipping the dinners. I'm about ready to do that myself, even though I plan to interview up to xmas.

What I'm getting really sick of is the delicate alcohol dance at these functions. Do you want a drink? I don't know... are you having one? Are any of the residents drinking? Why weren't they asked first, dammit? Am I going to be "that guy" that has a drink and then nobody else does? It's the second half of November already, do I even care anymore?

At least at my home program interview it was with all locals, and we thoroughly explored every nook and cranny of that cocktail menu.
Click to expand...

Just get a drink. Get two. Don't get five. The point is to not get hammered. If residents judged me for getting a single drink I wouldn't want to match there anyway.
 
SansaStarkMD said:
I don't want to f****** go. I don't care if the food is free. I hate small talk with strangers that I'll most likely never see again. I get along with everyone. I don't need to feel out "vibes."

How much does not attending move me down on the rank list, if at all?

P.S. Please answer my question or just stfu. I don't need people judging me. Thanks!
Click to expand...

It's important. Often the residents give you the least biased take on programs. You need to feel out vibes. Do the residents really hate their program? Youd be suprised but a a couple places I got that vibe when I interviewed.
 
tiedyeddog said:
It's important. Often the residents give you the least biased take on programs. You need to feel out vibes. Do the residents really hate their program? Youd be suprised but a a couple places I got that vibe when I interviewed.
Click to expand...

This is super true. I had a dinner where the residents spoke at length about how terrible the IM months of their intern year was and how it was hell for them. I learned a lot at that dinner that seriously dropped that program down my list.
 
sazerac said:
I hear that dinner fatigue sets in before interview fatigue. Applicants just stop caring and start skipping the dinners. I'm about ready to do that myself, even though I plan to interview up to xmas.

What I'm getting really sick of is the delicate alcohol dance at these functions. Do you want a drink? I don't know... are you having one? Are any of the residents drinking? Why weren't they asked first, dammit? Am I going to be "that guy" that has a drink and then nobody else does? It's the second half of November already, do I even care anymore?

At least at my home program interview it was with all locals, and we thoroughly explored every nook and cranny of that cocktail menu.
Click to expand...

If they're going to judge you for having a glass of wine/beer/or small cocktail at dinner then do you really want to hang out with that crowd for 3-5 years?
 
It shouldn't break your app at most places, but I found that the dinners give me the most up front and honest view of the programs. On the interview day for me, it was always a super charismatic group of residents/interns, plus the PDs and faculty saying why their program is so awesome. Not particularly helpful.
 
I missed my first interview dinner last night because of flight delays and it really bummed me out. It also felt weird going into the interview without having that unstructured time with the residents to get a feel of the city. To each their own, I suppose, but I hope to not miss another.
 
Unless you rotated at a place, you only have 2 hours at dinner and a few hours of interview/tour to get to know the program and sell yourself. Lots of places use resident input to help assemble lists, and not going won't lower you on their lists but it will certainly not help you climb their list if you are very interested in that program. Applicants that come to the dinner certainly end up higher in my opinion because I get to see who I will work with for xyz number of years.
 
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Shov said:
It shouldn't break your app at most places, but I found that the dinners give me the most up front and honest view of the programs. On the interview day for me, it was always a super charismatic group of residents/interns, plus the PDs and faculty saying why their program is so awesome. Not particularly helpful.
Click to expand...

nvm misread
 
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sazerac said:
I hear that dinner fatigue sets in before interview fatigue. Applicants just stop caring and start skipping the dinners. I'm about ready to do that myself, even though I plan to interview up to xmas.

What I'm getting really sick of is the delicate alcohol dance at these functions. Do you want a drink? I don't know... are you having one? Are any of the residents drinking? Why weren't they asked first, dammit? Am I going to be "that guy" that has a drink and then nobody else does? It's the second half of November already, do I even care anymore?

At least at my home program interview it was with all locals, and we thoroughly explored every nook and cranny of that cocktail menu.
Click to expand...

This is legitimately a good question to know the answer to. My attending took us out to eat and said he was surprised we weren't drinking more.
 
SansaStarkMD said:
I don't want to f****** go. I don't care if the food is free. I hate small talk with strangers that I'll most likely never see again. I get along with everyone. I don't need to feel out "vibes."

How much does not attending move me down on the rank list, if at all?

P.S. Please answer my question or just stfu. I don't need people judging me. Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'm just reading this in SansaStark's whiny voice within my head.

I liked going to them as a student. If I was asked for drinks first, I'd confirm with a resident that he/she was going to be getting something too, then order a beer.
 
evilbooyaa said:
I'm just reading this in SansaStark's whiny voice within my head.

I liked going to them as a student. If I was asked for drinks first, I'd confirm with a resident that he/she was going to be getting something too, then order a beer.
Click to expand...

I love going to them as a resident. Free food at some fancy place on my programs dime? Free booze after? Hell yeah.

And I don't even get me started on the weird personalities I've run into. I really enjoy talking to some of the psychopaths I've run into trying to get into my field. Must be a higher than average amount of nuts wanting to do this, the applicants we get confirms it.
 
tiedyeddog said:
I love going to them as a resident. Free food at some fancy place on my programs dime? Free booze after? Hell yeah.

And I don't even get me started on the weird personalities I've run into. I really enjoy talking to some of the psychopaths I've run into trying to get into my field. Must be a higher than average amount of nuts wanting to do this, the applicants we get confirms it.
Click to expand...


I find it so weird that there is this many people are the other side of the table saying this. I've run into maybe 2 people in 5 interviews that I thought that when they go home they may or may not wear people's skin but for the most part I figured everyone was pretty normal?
 
It just depends on the program. In smaller specialties with a smaller number of applicants, your absence may be more noticed. In a lot of programs, the committee asks the residents for their social opinions of the applicants - while you won't embarrass yourself by not going to the dinners, no resident will stand up for you and give you a great recommendation if you don't make it to the dinners.

In general, probably not necessary to match (depending on the field/specialty and how many interviews you have), but you're losing an opportunity to boost your application.

I also skipped a couple dinners on the trail, and I found come February I had a hard time figuring out where to rank those programs. I had a good feel for the interviews where I went to the pre-interview dinner, but didn't have that same feel if I'd skipped the dinner. I think they're valuable resources, like most people here. But you say you don't need to check out the vibes so it's up to you.
 
username456789 said:
When I interviewed at Mayo for Derm, it was great. The residents hosting us basically said "Ok, last week the applicants ate $____ worth of food - it's up to you guys to top that! If you can't decide between the steak or the lobster, get both. Want dessert? Get two! If you're getting a beer, go for the big one."

I didn't feel bad because, at the root of things, the meal was basically being financed by some hoighty toighty Saudi kings/princes for sure.
Click to expand...

Oh my god... That sounds like my kind of program! I'm salivating at the thought of the slight chance I get an interview there someday.

That also means that the residents get 3 years of free steak dinners during interview seasons 🙂
 
I think it will hurt you if you do not go for your interview dinner.

As many have insinuated, the dinner changes your position on the rank list. There will be people that move up and people that move down.

As long as people move up, from a relative standpoint, you will be moving down if you are not there. There will be this expectation at many programs.


Of course, if you know you will only do poorly at dinner, then you can avoid it. But I would practice it like I would practice the interview then.
 
tiedyeddog said:
I love going to them as a resident. Free food at some fancy place on my programs dime? Free booze after? Hell yeah.

And I don't even get me started on the weird personalities I've run into. I really enjoy talking to some of the psychopaths I've run into trying to get into my field. Must be a higher than average amount of nuts wanting to do this, the applicants we get confirms it.
Click to expand...

I've yet to meet a person who wasn't completely normal
 
As others have said, it is going to depend on the field and the program. I can only speak about my field, which is relatively small. The dinners matter, a lot. We match people that gel with our current residents. We have plenty of superstars numbers applicants. We have plenty of superstar research applicants. We could blindly pick out of a hat and we would get someone who was good on paper. But, just as important, we have to be around you for 6 years. We have to train you. You have to train your juniors. You have to work with 80+ hours/week our current residents. If you don't fit, it is a waste of everyone's time. The dinners are an opportunity to meet us. We have a lot of diversity in our residency. Lots of different backgrounds, lots of different interests. Some people drink (a lot), some (yours truly) don't drink at all and everyone else is somewhere in between. The same goes for virtually every metric. What you won't find are a bunch of dinguses. But, what you will find are a bunch of people that get along well.

We believe in volume of information. The dinner and the interview day are long, there is a lot of group and one on one interaction. And every year, we can right off the bat not rank people based on those interactions.

sliceofbread136 said:
I've yet to meet a person who wasn't completely normal
Click to expand...

Probably 1 in 8-10 are enough outside of 'normal' in a bad way as far as we are concerned.
 
mimelim said:
As others have said, it is going to depend on the field and the program. I can only speak about my field, which is relatively small. The dinners matter, a lot. We match people that gel with our current residents. We have plenty of superstars numbers applicants. We have plenty of superstar research applicants. We could blindly pick out of a hat and we would get someone who was good on paper. But, just as important, we have to be around you for 6 years. We have to train you. You have to train your juniors. You have to work with 80+ hours/week our current residents. If you don't fit, it is a waste of everyone's time. The dinners are an opportunity to meet us. We have a lot of diversity in our residency. Lots of different backgrounds, lots of different interests. Some people drink (a lot), some (yours truly) don't drink at all and everyone else is somewhere in between. The same goes for virtually every metric. What you won't find are a bunch of dinguses. But, what you will find are a bunch of people that get along well.

We believe in volume of information. The dinner and the interview day are long, there is a lot of group and one on one interaction. And every year, we can right off the bat not rank people based on those interactions.



Probably 1 in 8-10 are enough outside of 'normal' in a bad way as far as we are concerned.
Click to expand...

Almost certain you guys read into minor crap way too hard and unduely label someone as not normal when it is not justified.

Then again I guess people going into surgery generally have some awful personalities
 
sliceofbread136 said:
Almost certain you guys read into minor crap way too hard and unduely label someone as not normal when it is not justified.

Then again I guess people going into surgery generally have some awful personalities
Click to expand...

I disagree. The vast majority of the cases that I am talking about are not stereotypical surgeon personalities. For the most part it is basic professionalism. Don't throw spitballs at dinner. Don't get sloshed at dinner (or show up hung over to the interview). Don't make racist/misogynistic/xenophobic comments. Don't use ethnic slurs. Don't talk about smoking up with a patient during medical school. Those are the lion's share of people turning off our current residents and staff. Beyond that, if you have a hard time holding a conversation with someone or talking about mutual interests, there are better applicants than you. You don't have to be loud or even outgoing. While I am personally on the far more extroverted end of the spectrum, we have plenty of introverts and people that prefer to be quieter. But, we have long since realized that a huge part of doing this job and being a resident is being able to communicate and get along with people, so we select for it. Again, certainly can't speak for other specialties, but we can pick the more interesting people and people that we want to be around for the next 6 years, so we do.

Remember, medical school admissions for the most part does a piss poor job selecting for anything outside of the ability to be a good student. There are plenty of people in medical school that are far less desirable from an employment stand point.
 
mimelim said:
As others have said, it is going to depend on the field and the program. I can only speak about my field, which is relatively small. The dinners matter, a lot. We match people that gel with our current residents. We have plenty of superstars numbers applicants. We have plenty of superstar research applicants. We could blindly pick out of a hat and we would get someone who was good on paper. But, just as important, we have to be around you for 6 years. We have to train you. You have to train your juniors. You have to work with 80+ hours/week our current residents. If you don't fit, it is a waste of everyone's time. The dinners are an opportunity to meet us. We have a lot of diversity in our residency. Lots of different backgrounds, lots of different interests. Some people drink (a lot), some (yours truly) don't drink at all and everyone else is somewhere in between. The same goes for virtually every metric. What you won't find are a bunch of dinguses. But, what you will find are a bunch of people that get along well.

We believe in volume of information. The dinner and the interview day are long, there is a lot of group and one on one interaction. And every year, we can right off the bat not rank people based on those interactions.



Probably 1 in 8-10 are enough outside of 'normal' in a bad way as far as we are concerned.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with that ratio.
 
mimelim said:
I disagree. The vast majority of the cases that I am talking about are not stereotypical surgeon personalities. For the most part it is basic professionalism. Don't throw spitballs at dinner. Don't get sloshed at dinner (or show up hung over to the interview). Don't make racist/misogynistic/xenophobic comments. Don't use ethnic slurs. Don't talk about smoking up with a patient during medical school. Those are the lion's share of people turning off our current residents and staff. Beyond that, if you have a hard time holding a conversation with someone or talking about mutual interests, there are better applicants than you. You don't have to be loud or even outgoing. While I am personally on the far more extroverted end of the spectrum, we have plenty of introverts and people that prefer to be quieter. But, we have long since realized that a huge part of doing this job and being a resident is being able to communicate and get along with people, so we select for it. Again, certainly can't speak for other specialties, but we can pick the more interesting people and people that we want to be around for the next 6 years, so we do.

Remember, medical school admissions for the most part does a piss poor job selecting for anything outside of the ability to be a good student. There are plenty of people in medical school that are far less desirable from an employment stand point.
Click to expand...

Well if you include people who aren't good at carrying a conversation in that 1 to 10 ratio, then ya sure. But I wouldn't call that outside of normal

tiedyeddog said:
We have what is required to make it through what most "regular" people consider inhumane.
Click to expand...

It's not that I blame you surgeons. You've set a self propagating culture of hatred and insecurity that would be difficult to break.
 
tiedyeddog said:
Just get a drink. Get two. Don't get five. The point is to not get hammered. If residents judged me for getting a single drink I wouldn't want to match there anyway.
Click to expand...

Don't get 5? No wonder you guys get burnt out. I'd be sick of sitting around a bunch of strangers while sober, too.
 
Oh come on, stop bashing surgeons. Residents and attendings on my surgery clerkship were some of the most "normal", straightforward and easy to get along with people I've met in my core clerkship year. I actually genuinely enjoyed my surgery rotation. (And I'm saying this as someone going into psychiatry.)
 
All the weirdos on SDN just want to be told that they're not weirdos.
Surgery lifestyle is hard, but the residents and attendings (not including old geezers 25+ years from residency) within surgery are some of the most personable people I've interacted with.
Definitely had more relaxed interactions (outside of stressful scenarios like in the OR) with surgery attendings than up-tight IM docs.
 
sliceofbread136 said:
Almost certain you guys read into minor crap way too hard and unduely label someone as not normal when it is not justified.

Then again I guess people going into surgery generally have some awful personalities
Click to expand...

That's not fair, and a gross overgeneralization. I have worked with many surgeons who had fantastic personalities and were a delight to work with.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Amygdarya said:
Oh come on, stop bashing surgeons. Residents and attendings on my surgery clerkship were some of the most "normal", straightforward and easy to get along with people I've met in my core clerkship year. I actually genuinely enjoyed my surgery rotation. (And I'm saying this as someone going into psychiatry.)
Click to expand...

Same here.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
.
 
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Ive come to enjoy the dinners for getting to know the applicants, residents, and of course the free food and drinks. I think I was the only one last time who balled out with two drafts.
 
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