residency match lists - why not post them?

[pitman]

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Members don't see this ad.

(question for current int'l students or IMGs such as Kimberly, particulary via Australia route):

I have read many posts on how US residency is possible, indeed probable, if you're willing to put the extra time in, for IMGs from Australia. Yet, none of the programs proudly announce (e.g., on their websites) their match lists. Indeed, USyd's policy (email communication) is not to disclose that information, or any agreements they may have with US residency programs, to non-students.

Yes, the Aus. schools don't exist to churn out US doctors (same argument heard on this board re USMLE), BUT they do market themselves to Americans (albeit also to other foreigners, particularly Canadians), and at least two actively compete for the better int'l candidates, for example, via merit scholarships.

SO....here's my question for those "in the know" -- is the placement not remarkable thus creating the dis-incentive to post the match lists (small sample size or not), or is there another reason I don't understand that counters the advantages of such advertising?

-Pitman

 

[Winged Scapula]

I can't say for sure what the reasons would be, although I agree they are missing a potentially valuable marketing tool.

Perhaps it is for concerns of privacy or simply not recognizing how important this is to potential candidates. I found Flinders ignorant on many accounts (at least years ago) about what the Americans needed - obviously since they hadn't had any they weren't up to speed on processing loans, having us do US rotations, etc.

I can tell you there are 3 of us from Flinders at Penn State - 1 wjo just finished IM and will be doing his Cards fellowship there, one doing Diagnostic Rads and me. Another is doing Psychiatry at New Mexico, one doing Ortho in Detroit, a couple at Duke, another doing IM in Boston, Path at the Cleveland Clinic, Peds at Albany and of course the "infamous" grad doing Derm in Boston. There are others whose placement I can't recall, but I also don't know why a list isn't posted.

 

[Apollyon]

Unless I'm mistaken, there's at least 1 (possibly more) here at Duke in IM.

And, before SDN, I'd never heard of Flinders!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yes, you are correct - I'd forgotten about him (the resident at Duke).

 

[MacGyver]

The reason international schools dont publicize match lists (a few do, but they are rare) is because its better for their marketing campaign to american students.

They know that on a straight up objective comparison there is no way they can compete with teh american med schools in terms of matchlists--yet they continue to put out innuendos and lies about how going to a foreign school will not put them at a disadvantage.

Instead, they talk about their 1 grad who did dermatology at UCSF or the 1 guy who did neurosurgery at MGH. They know that their "marketing" campaign is best served by anecdotes.

Now, to an intelligent, reasonable person, personal anecdotes are worthless. Personal anecdote says that since I played russian roullette once, that it must be safe.

There is a complete and totally obvious reason why foreign schools dont publish match lists--they know that their lie that their school is equivalent or "better" than an american school will be exposed as a farce.

 

[pitman]

Um, you might want to tone down on the extreme posture, and the gross generalizations, MacGyver -- there have been many members here who have more than anecdotes, e.g., Kimberly Cox being a current one, and I also independently know a little about the good rep of Aus. schools and Flinders grads in particular, among doctors in the US.

Minus the tone, and your general slander of foreign schools (you show 0 understanding of Aussie schools or of what they "claim", unless you are claiming that Kimberly et al are really agents of those schools?) you do have in there a point, and may be correct, that it has been deemed better to not show the lists; but if so, then it would likely be due to smaller quantitative or qualitative differences than you seem to imagine, particularly for generalists. Having said that, yes, I would certainly like to be able to see such a list, and will likely see one or two before I accept a placement.

-Pitman

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by MacGyver

There is a complete and totally obvious reason why foreign schools dont publish match lists--they know that their lie that their school is equivalent or "better" than an american school will be exposed as a farce.

Whether a school is "better" or not is not necessarily determined by the match list. No one disputes that foreign medical grads face a certain amount of discrimination and therefore the match lists will not be as good. However many people prefer Irish trained docs because of the incredible clinical training they have which is not as dependent on tests as american trained docs. So you go to Ireland (or Australia) and take your chances in the match knowing that you are as well trained as any American doc.

http://sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/webcontent/15EBD7EF222F054E85256D1700751A8F?OpenDocument&top=med

Here's SGU's match list while it is not as "good" as some US schools I'm sure the 7 radiologists, opthalmologist, orthopedic surgeon, neurosurgeon, ENT, urologist, and countless surgeons, anesthesiologists, obgyns and internal medicine docs on this years match list from SGU are happy they went there instead of giving up their dream.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by MacGyver
The reason international schools dont publicize match lists (a few do, but they are rare) is because its better for their marketing campaign to american students.

SGU, Ross, AUC, Saba, Spartan (self-reported), all have match lists easily accessible. St. Matthew's was the only one that didn't have a straight list.

As I'll say AGAIN - it's individual effort. Nobody gives a damn about anyone else except themselves...and, if one person gets IM, or Peds, or EM, or ENT, that's all that matters to THAT person - and all the match list does is give them somewhere to aim.

Otherwise, believe it or don't, much of the rest of the world educates their doctors for their own countries. That's why you won't find match lists for UK schools, Indian schools, Sri Lankan, Vietnamese, or others.

So, Mac, take it easy. If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I understand Mcgyver's sentiments and there may be a kernel of truth in them but IMHO my school and I'm sure, others, have nothing to hide. We don't have any grads at Mass Gen or Hopkins but then again, we've got people in some respected programs. Programs THEY'RE happy to be at.

If anyone expects a foreign school's match list to rival that of US schools, they would be disappointed. In regards to the Aussie and Irish schools, the numbers graduated (especially from the Aussie schools) simply do not compare to those coming out of schools like SGU/Ross each year. By sheer numbers, they graduate upwards of 300 students each year and might be expected to have "better" matches where the Irish and Aussie schools combined have fewer than that graduating and an even smaller number entering the US match - the odds are that more of the former will match into more competitive specialties.