Residency Orientation

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abcdior

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My program has something scheduled June 6.

Start date for residency is July 1.


W
T
F

but who was vacation plans?


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Light at end of tunnel said:
How is that allowable????
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easily...many programs have orientation that can last up to 2 weeks...and residency doesn't always start July 1st ...many (particularly surgery programs) will start the last week in June.

if it is mandatory, they do have to pay you. Of course if its voluntary and you don't go, well you may be behind the 8 ball from the get.
 
Do you think they schedule things for your convenience?
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Light at end of tunnel said:
How is that allowable????
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Because you won't have time to do all of the paperwork and certifications and EMR training once you're actually working. I spent an entire week getting certified in BLS, ACLS, PALS, and NRP (even if we already had these, we all had to get them done again so we would be on the same page). Thankfully didn't have to do ATLS, but surgery and anesthesia and some other folks did. Spent 2 full days in EMR training. 2 full days in a lecture hall getting told all of the policies and procedures, some of them multiple times over. And of course orientation to our respective program. You jump in full force on July 1 (or earlier, depending on the program) and there's not a lot of hand-holding, so you need the orientation before you actually start working.

You'll hopefully get paid for it, but I guess that's up to the program. We did.
 
abcdior said:
so you are that guy who decides to do his elective surgeries cases at 2 am...

nice to meet you
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Above is not really relevant.

I wasn't trying to be rude, just thought it was funny you think residencies care about your schedule. They own you now.
 
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aProgDirector said:
I am surprised by this. In general, if orientation is required and job related, it must be paid. If it's a BBQ at my house to meet your co-interns, then not.

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandto...yworkersfortimespentinnewhireorientation.aspx
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So my week of fellowship orientation, consisting of ridiculously boring lectures from the GME administrators, hospital administrators, health screening, etc. etc. was completely unpaid. I'd seen the same as you linked stated here before in a few threads, so I, out of curiosity (and also not giving a F at annoying the GME department, given that that decision wasn't made by my own division), called the DoL to inquire as to the legality.

They told me it was legal, and that since we weren't performing the work we were hired to do during that week (that is, acting as physicians), we had no recourse. By my reading of the law, that seems to be outside the spirit, but hell if I know. They also implied that the fact we could be considered interns rather than employees might be involved (which certainly seemed wrong to me).

I was a bit surprised by all that, but I didn't pursue it further. It was only a phone conversation with a random worker bee at the local DoL office, so they could easily have been wrong in their reasoning, but that's the answer I got. Plus, I know of multiple residency programs that don't pay for orientation, or only pay for part of it, and I presume at least some of them have lawyers on staff that would tell them if they could get into deep **** for it.

I suppose if they did pay for orientation they'd just divide my paycheck by 53 rather than 52 for the first year (that is, lower my pay otherwise to compensate) so it will even out... but it still pissed me off.
 
Raryn said:
They told me it was legal, and that since we weren't performing the work we were hired to do during that week (that is, acting as physicians), we had no recourse. By my reading of the law, that seems to be outside the spirit, but hell if I know. They also implied that the fact we could be considered interns rather than employees might be involved (which certainly seemed wrong to me).
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Interesting.

When your hospital system hires an attending, and makes them go to orientation, are they unpaid as well? Because, technically, NO ONE performs the work that they were hired to do during orientation - no one is hired to watch OSHA videos for a living, for example.

And when attendings are hired, they're also not performing as physicians during orientation week. But I'll bet that the hospital system pays attendings to go through orientation. But you are cheap labor that is basically a captive audience and the attendings are not.

Seems like a weak argument to me. But whatever.
 
smq123 said:
Interesting.

When your hospital system hires an attending, and makes them go to orientation, are they unpaid as well? Because, technically, NO ONE performs the work that they were hired to do during orientation - no one is hired to watch OSHA videos for a living, for example.

And when attendings are hired, they're also not performing as physicians during orientation week. But I'll bet that the hospital system pays attendings to go through orientation. But you are cheap labor that is basically a captive audience and the attendings are not.

Seems like a weak argument to me. But whatever.
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My suspicion is that the rando at DoL probably heard the word "intern" and interpreted it the way the word "intern" is interpreted in English in all non-medical contexts, I.e. a temporary position meant exclusively for obtaining job experience. I imagine if you were careful to say "junior physician" or "resident physician", you would get a different answer.
 
smq123 said:
Interesting.

When your hospital system hires an attending, and makes them go to orientation, are they unpaid as well? Because, technically, NO ONE performs the work that they were hired to do during orientation - no one is hired to watch OSHA videos for a living, for example.

And when attendings are hired, they're also not performing as physicians during orientation week. But I'll bet that the hospital system pays attendings to go through orientation. But you are cheap labor that is basically a captive audience and the attendings are not.

Seems like a weak argument to me. But whatever.
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Yes. I agree with you completely. But they still didn't pay us during orientation.

clausewitz2 said:
My suspicion is that the rando at DoL probably heard the word "intern" and interpreted it the way the word "intern" is interpreted in English in all non-medical contexts, I.e. a temporary position meant exclusively for obtaining job experience. I imagine if you were careful to say "junior physician" or "resident physician", you would get a different answer.
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Nope.

I clarified that, though I was a trainee, I was a paid employee. Remember, I was coming in as a PGY4 fellow, not an intern. They mentioned the word intern (from what I recall... it was 9 months ago) and even after I clarified, they said still said it was legit.
 
smq123 said:
Interesting.

When your hospital system hires an attending, and makes them go to orientation, are they unpaid as well? Because, technically, NO ONE performs the work that they were hired to do during orientation - no one is hired to watch OSHA videos for a living, for example.

And when attendings are hired, they're also not performing as physicians during orientation week. But I'll bet that the hospital system pays attendings to go through orientation. But you are cheap labor that is basically a captive audience and the attendings are not.

Seems like a weak argument to me. But whatever.
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true...i have yet to have an attending job not have paid orientation, but my residency orientation was not paid...my fellowship had orientation starting july 1st so we were paid.
 
Raryn said:
Yes. I agree with you completely. But they still didn't pay us during orientation.
.
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This may seem simple, but it wasn't for some I worked with, so apologies ahead of time.

When did you get your first check? July 1 or July 15. A bunch I went through orientation with thought they weren't getting paid until I reminded them that you actually have to do the work first, and then you get paid. So if you show up two weeks before July 1 your first check isn't coming until July 1.


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backrow said:
This may seem simple, but it wasn't for some I worked with, so apologies ahead of time.

When did you get your first check? July 1 or July 15. A bunch I went through orientation with thought they weren't getting paid until I reminded them that you actually have to do the work first, and then you get paid. So if you show up two weeks before July 1 your first check isn't coming until July 1.


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Due to delays with processing us in the HR system, our first paycheck was 07/22 and covered 07/1-07/15. We get paid on the 1st and 16th covering the prior two weeks. Orientation 100% wasn't included, even stated by the GME office.

That's another thing to keep in mind, many programs pay monthly. First paycheck for a resident might not be till August 1, so you better have enough savings to get you through moving, settling in, and your first month of work.
 
Maybe residents don't get paid for orientation because they are salaried employees? Same reason you don't get paid overtime. I don't know for sure, just a thought.

Probably not worth making a stink about, though. Employers tend to be pretty careful about this stuff, so if they needed to pay you, they would. The fact that numerous people from numerous different programs have not gotten paid for orientation suggests that this practice is on the up and up.
 
If you are in a pinch, you should check the benefits at your program. I saw that mine included $1000 for moving costs if the resident was out of state and $500 for in state plus the option to take a 2k interest free loan (You have to pay it back over the year)
 
It's almost certainly illegal to not pay for orientation, assuming that orientation includes EMR training, ACLS/BLS, etc. basically, if it's required to work then they have to pay you. Many programs don't, and they would lose in court. But no one takes them to court, because the amount you could get is small. And so it continues.

Sorry, the link I had above seemed to bump into a paywall. I updated the link to be the one from google, which gets around the paywall. If you tried it before and are interested, try it again. And here it is: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...nL1isPZWMLiRble7A&sig2=izEdyRM7IfhmYNxqMCZ2Bg
 
aProgDirector said:
It's almost certainly illegal to not pay for orientation, assuming that orientation includes EMR training, ACLS/BLS, etc. basically, if it's required to work then they have to pay you. Many programs don't, and they would lose in court. But no one takes them to court, because the amount you could get is small. And so it continues.

Sorry, the link I had above seemed to bump into a paywall. I updated the link to be the one from google, which gets around the paywall. If you tried it before and are interested, try it again. And here it is: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7pJq3k_LSAhWqy4MKHb4xAjEQFggfMAE&url=https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-qa/pages/dowehavetopayworkersfortimespentinnewhireorientation.aspx&usg=AFQjCNFd9btuB3vM9nL1isPZWMLiRble7A&sig2=izEdyRM7IfhmYNxqMCZ2Bg
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Thank you for your candid input. The programs continue to behave with impunity, because we let them.

It isn't about about work hours, life style, etc. It's simply about black or white law in this regard which is clear: they MUST pay for orientation.

They can get into serious trouble with the government, along with the ACGME, for not paying.
 
Don't get paid for orientation , start on June 19th


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You kids...

Back when I was a resident, we reported for duty March 20th! We would see nighttime consults using the outgoing senior residents' credentials, and drive back to medical school for daytime rotations every morning!
 
Start last week of June, getting paid for it.

witzelsucht said:
You kids...

Back when I was a resident, we reported for duty March 20th! We would see nighttime consults using the outgoing senior residents' credentials, and drive back to medical school for daytime rotations every morning!
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Are you sure you drove? Are you sure it wasn't walking through 10 ft of snow uphill both ways? 😉
 
aProgDirector said:
It's almost certainly illegal to not pay for orientation, assuming that orientation includes EMR training, ACLS/BLS, etc. basically, if it's required to work then they have to pay you. Many programs don't, and they would lose in court. But no one takes them to court, because the amount you could get is small. And so it continues.

Sorry, the link I had above seemed to bump into a paywall. I updated the link to be the one from google, which gets around the paywall. If you tried it before and are interested, try it again. And here it is: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7pJq3k_LSAhWqy4MKHb4xAjEQFggfMAE&url=https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-qa/pages/dowehavetopayworkersfortimespentinnewhireorientation.aspx&usg=AFQjCNFd9btuB3vM9nL1isPZWMLiRble7A&sig2=izEdyRM7IfhmYNxqMCZ2Bg
Click to expand...
Ironically, my fiancee just found out she IS getting paid for her residency orientation... everything except the first two days, which is ACLS/BLS training.

*shrug*
 
aProgDirector said:
You had it easy. I had to hew out my own stone tablets from the quarry each day. That was "pre-rounding"
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I had it slightly better - just had to make my own papyrus. Those admit notes in hieroglyphics were a pain in the a$$ though.
 
we don't pay for the time you are here for certifications, (ATLS and PALS, ACLS, BLS) because if you can't be here, fine, we will schedule you later for these. However, once your start with the HR/EMR/Department Orientation stuff, you get paid. Works out this year to a week and a day.
 
Is this pay in addition to base salary? And if so, is it just some dollar amount per hour?
 
Orientation pay is usually just "extra days". So if your intern salary is $45k = $865 per week, then you'll get $865 per week for orientation, pro rated if need be. Basically you just start getting paid a bit earlier.
 
Ours was not in days/weeks. I guess because we weren't really working full days, just at required stuff a few hours a day over the course of about 10 days. I just looked up my first pay statement from back in 2010. My gross pay was $3764.58 for the month of July and there was an extra $342.23 tacked onto that for orientation in June (we were only paid once a month). I have no idea how they calculated that amount. I recall just being so happy to have money after being basically broke since graduation (truthfully since before graduation) that I didn't bother to figure out how that was accounted for. We had a generous food allowance at the hospital so I essentially ate every meal at the hospital that month lol. Times were lean.
 
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