Residency Q: Real Power of a "Name"

[PrepH]

Greetings,

My question is basically about how many schools I should apply out and how far "down" the rung I should apply. I am only concerned because I don't have the money to apply to 40 schools and travel to interview at 20, and if I can manage it I would like to interview at 5 schools or so only.

I have been told by a number of people that because of excitement over and commitment to psychiatry, and especially because of the medical school I attend, that basically if I pass (pass, not even ace) my boards and don't kill anyone and/or do something glaringly unprofessional, I will be able to waltz into the school of my choice.

I do understand that that is all hyperbole, but I wonder how far off it really is. My ambitions aren't too high, any program on the west coast will do.

Say I am a student from Hopkins or Harvard Medical. I have zero publications or research, average grades/numbers (for my school), except Honors in Psych and in a Psych sub-I.

Say that I am an excellent interviewee (was accepted at every school I interviewed at, including Harvard and Hopkins, despite being an average college student). Say my interest in psych is sincere and very very strong.

All things being equal, and promising you that I am not a douchebag and do not act like a "oooh I come from Harvard oooh" type, will coming from Harvard and/or Hopkins really have that much power and sway over selection committees? Could I comfortably apply to only a dozen programs?

I know this thread makes me sound like an arrogant dick, please try to answer as if I wasn't

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[billypilgrim37]

All things being equal, and promising you that I am not a douchebag and do not act like a "oooh I come from Harvard oooh" type, will coming from Harvard and/or Hopkins really have that much power and sway over selection committees? Could I comfortably apply to only a dozen programs?

Yes.

 

[VMSmith]

Yes, you should be in good shape to match if you apply to about a dozen programs and interview at the ones you get interviews from.

You may be hurt a little at the most competitive programs by not honoring medicine, but that shouldn't keep you from getting enough interviews to match somewhere.

 

[cleareyedguy]

You don't get into med school at Harvard or Hopkins (or their west coast equivalents) by being an average college student with good interviewing skills. While you may not have been any different from the student who wound up at U Mass or U Maryland (and who may have leapt past you during the intervening 4 years, at least in terms of research, community service, etc), you had to have presented some sort of hook that intrigued the admissions people. While psych residencies are looking for somewhat different attributes than med schools, your hook likely remains--though you may need to sharpen it a bit. Let's say, though, that you had a 3.9 and 12.5 MCAT's and got in because you were a nice guy with great numbers and then had a solid but unremarkable career in med school.

So you are a solid plugger in a top 10 med school (and those MCAT's and GPA no longer count for much)--the school rep will give you some bump, but you will definitely not simply waltz into the top 10 rank list of every residency program you apply. The school name is useful to programs not so much for prestige but rather because it increases the likelihood that you won't be a freak show when you arrive at the residency; never forget that programs are at least as worried about recruiting a personality disordered slacker as you are of matching with a malignant program. Beyond the personality fit, however, there is a simple numbers issue: from last year, for example, about ten people applied from each of 3 places that have top tier residency programs (Columbia, Cornell, and UCSF). That's 30 people right there, and it's likely that none of those places went below #30 to fill their classes. And that doesn't even include all the other top tier medical schools that had 5-ish applicants and all those regular med schools where the students are--at most--only marginally different from the UCSF grads--and where some of the students have blossomed into highly-recruitable stars.

I would not, however, think about getting in everywhere but instead look carefully at each program, try to differentiate something substantive, make an alliance, try to read the vibes from the places (both generally and in regards to you), and give specific positive feedback to the places you particularly liked. And then, more often than not, you'll end up someplace appropriate and good.

 

[billypilgrim37]

So you are a solid plugger in a top 10 med school (and those MCAT's and GPA no longer count for much)--the school rep will give you some bump, but you will definitely not simply waltz into the top 10 rank list of every residency program you apply.

To clarify from my previous clear affirmative, you are safe applying to 12 programs, as there are simply not 12 programs competitive enough to cumulatively reject someone with those credentials, with rest assured that you will match, but are certainly not guaranteed a spot at any particular program. I certainly agree with the above statement.

 

[psychattending]

I believe that last year pretty much anybody who interviewed at 10 programs matched somewhere. I would suspect that if you got 225 or better on your USMLEs that you would get one of your top 3 schools.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

I believe that last year pretty much anybody who interviewed at 10 programs matched somewhere. I would suspect that if you got 225 or better on your USMLEs that you would get one of your top 3 schools.

241/259/Pass lots of honors, great letters, master's in human evolution, multiple pubs, two working papers in psych. Matched at my fourth. didn't even get interviews at two of my top prospects.

As psychiatrists we should know better than to inflate peoples' expectations.

 

[Faebinder]

241/259/Pass lots of honors, great letters, master's in human evolution, multiple pubs, two working papers in psych. Matched at my fourth. didn't even get interviews at two of my top prospects.

As psychiatrists we should know better than to inflate peoples' expectations.

Agreed, the ratio of applicants to positions is becomnig insane, but 10 interviews is different than 10 applications. 10 interviews is most likely a match. Now how many applications do you need to get 10 interviews? Who knows, it depends on where you apply and your profile.

 

[whopper]

As psychiatrists we should know better than to inflate peoples' expectations.

Agree, and I agree with Cleareyeguy's statements.

This is too important a process to mess up considering there's very little drawback with applying to more programs. I often tell applicants to not take the interview process, or other things with as much anxiety as they often do.

However I would suggest applying to a healthy amount of programs. Its been years since I applied, but with the MATCH process, applying to more programs from what I remember doesn't cost the applicant much more money (in fact it may not even cost more money at all--I don't remember).

This is too important a process to take lightly, and given that you can turn down any of the invitations for an interview with no detriment to yourself, that you don't have to write up another application that'll take hours-just one application does it..IMHO you should apply to more vs less programs just to be safe.

Now if the question were "should I go to 50 interviews" I'd of course say no. At that point you're going to be taking on too much of a burden, and at least 80% of those interviews will cost you several hundreds of dollars to execute (travel costs, hotel rooms, food etc).

Also factor in that the number of applicants last year went up, with no open spots left. The competitive level may be higher this year than last. There are other x-factors that may confuse what will happen this year such as the current healthcare debate, the state of the economy etc. We won't be able to tell with absolute confidence what the trend is for this year until way past the time where your application deadlines are over.

241/259/Pass lots of honors, great letters, master's in human evolution, multiple pubs, two working papers in psych. Matched at my fourth. didn't even get interviews at two of my top prospects.

I remember you mentioning this. I also remember a buddy of mine not getting into any program two years ago, and I believed he would have if he just applied to more programs which wouldn't have been much more money or work for him. Now he can't get into any program. (Kind of a long story. When he decided to get out of FP, his PD took it very personally and put some very bad things into his record that were false. He was considering suing them but didn't think it was worth it.....)

 

[wolfvgang22]

Agree, and I agree with Cleareyeguy's statements.

This is too important a process to mess up considering there's very little drawback with applying to more programs. I often tell applicants to not take the interview process, or other things with as much anxiety as they often do.

However I would suggest applying to a healthy amount of programs. Its been years since I applied, but with the MATCH process, applying to more programs from what I remember doesn't cost the applicant much more money (in fact it may not even cost more money at all--I don't remember).

This is too important a process to take lightly, and given that you can turn down any of the invitations for an interview with no detriment to yourself, that you don't have to write up another application that'll take hours-just one application does it..IMHO you should apply to more vs less programs just to be safe.

Now if the question were "should I go to 50 interviews" I'd of course say no. At that point you're going to be taking on too much of a burden, and at least 80% of those interviews will cost you several hundreds of dollars to execute (travel costs, hotel rooms, food etc).

Also factor in that the number of applicants last year went up, with no open spots left. The competitive level may be higher this year than last. There are other x-factors that may confuse what will happen this year such as the current healthcare debate, the state of the economy etc. We won't be able to tell with absolute confidence what the trend is for this year until way past the time where your application deadlines are over.



I remember you mentioning this. I also remember a buddy of mine not getting into any program two years ago, and I believed he would have if he just applied to more programs which wouldn't have been much more money or work for him. Now he can't get into any program. (Kind of a long story. When he decided to get out of FP, his PD took it very personally and put some very bad things into his record that were false. He was considering suing them but didn't think it was worth it.....)

I agree with all this. I would add:
What's the downside of sending out too many applications, and you get too many interview invites? The stress of picking which one to attend? An inflated ego? lol