Residency Vacation Benefits Q

[mwest]

I noted on the contract letter that my program sent me, that intern year vacation is 10 days vacation + 12 days sick leave.
On FRIEDA, it was listed as 2 weeks. I am confused- since when did 2 weeks become 10 days?

I also want to know what 'sick leave' covers in the context of residency training? eg. Does it cover if a child/family member is ill or it's just for my personal 'sick days" ?

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[Jersey]

When you work in the real world, two weeks vacation is ten working days. What did you think, that you were getting 14 days off?

Just hope that they'll let you wrap an off weekend around it...

 

[dragonfly99]

People generally will look down on you if you take sick days unless you are really ill (i.e. acutely infectious and dangerous to others, or actively vomiting from food poisoning, etc.). Usually doctors don't take sick days unless absolutely necessary. If you have a sick child or something, that might be different...you'll have to be calling your chief resident, most likely, if you need to take a day off. It's usually not done unless absolutely necessary. In my entire time in IM residency, I can only remember one rotation where one person took a sick day.

10 vacation days = 2 weeks of vacation, b/c usually you'll be given vacation on an easy month where you'd have the weekend off anyway. At least I think that's how most places do it.

 

[roflcakes887]

People generally will look down on you if you take sick days unless you are really ill (i.e. acutely infectious and dangerous to others, or actively vomiting from food poisoning, etc.). Usually doctors don't take sick days unless absolutely necessary. If you have a sick child or something, that might be different...you'll have to be calling your chief resident, most likely, if you need to take a day off. It's usually not done unless absolutely necessary. In my entire time in IM residency, I can only remember one rotation where one person took a sick day.

10 vacation days = 2 weeks of vacation, b/c usually you'll be given vacation on an easy month where you'd have the weekend off anyway. At least I think that's how most places do it.

your perception is irrelevant.

the person can legally take their sick days off whenever they deem they want to.

they don't have to have their sick days authorized by you.

 

[mwest]

When you work in the real world, two weeks vacation is ten working days. What did you think, that you were getting 14 days off?

Just hope that they'll let you wrap an off weekend around it...

In the real world, people have weekends off. We don't. I didn't know any of the details behind this till now, precisely b/c even asking about this seems to be taboo?

 

[roflcakes887]

In the real world, people have weekends off. We don't. I didn't know the any of the details behind this till now, precisely b/c even asking about this seems to be taboo?

exactly.

residents/physicians in academic medical centers annoy me to no end.

they act like we should feel GUILTY for worrying about things like vacation/sick days etc....

this is why I encourage all med students/residents to take every break/day off/vacation day you are legally entitled to.

 

[CBMD]

your perception is irrelevant.

the person can legally take their sick days off whenever they deem they want to.

they don't have to have their sick days authorized by you.

You're a med student right? I'm not coming down on you although your tone definately needs adjustment. When you're an intern or resident people's perception is all that matters and actually if Dragonfly were the chief or fellow, he would be the person who authorizes sick leave. He could very well refuse sick time if he felt it was unnecessary, or require documentation. Sick time is just that, time for illness. In the regular world people may take sick time when they're not sick, but remember as a resident if you do that too often or sometimes even at all you'll get a bad rep and your life will become miserable. Imagine you're one of 2 interns on the team and your fellow intern decided to take a "sick day" and go fishing and YOU get slammed with all the new admits and floor patients, wouldn't you be pissed? would you forget? Also if you think program directors don't keep track of this then you are wrong. If you're a borderline resident, taking sick time when you aren't sick could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. The PD could look at it as a lapse in moral judgement if he was able to prove it. So don't speak so emphatically about something you obviously don't know that much about.

As far as regular vacation time, I agree that that should be utilized to the fullest and yes almost everywhere 1 week vacation equals 5 days, just be glad it's not 40 hours like it is in some prefessions.

 

[error404]

your perception is irrelevant.

the person can legally take their sick days off whenever they deem they want to.

they don't have to have their sick days authorized by you.

Wow. Way to inappropriately respond to some good advice. At most residency programs (going by the contracts I've looked at, *all* residency programs,) require documentation of sick days.

You're an MSII-- are you sure you're completely informed? And putting your school in your signature... that's gotta give Duke the warm fuzzies.

 

[Jersey]

All I can say is, get ready to learn your place in life...

 

[Doc Oc]

Wow, we are spoiled. We have 3 weeks vacation/sick time (which means 15 work days). Plus 5 days CME. They don't count certifications or the Steps in any of this. Those days are free. We also split the winter holidays with eachother, so 9 residents are off for 5 days over Christmas and 9 are off 5 days over New Years. The 5 days you work are very "hours non-compliant", but it's worth it for the time off - which is not included in the vacation time either.

Nobody bugs anybody else about this vacation or sick time. As far as I know, nobody abuses it either. It seems to work. I have never had anyone give me a hard time when I was sick. Of course, when most of us call in sick, there was an ER visit or something serious involved. People take maternity leave without getting a hard time either.

So not sure what you're looking for, but I'd guess that the above set-up for vacation time is as good as you're gonna get.

 

[roflcakes887]

Wow, we are spoiled. We have 3 weeks vacation/sick time (which means 15 work days). Plus 5 days CME. They don't count certifications or the Steps in any of this. Those days are free. We also split the winter holidays with eachother, so 9 residents are off for 5 days over Christmas and 9 are off 5 days over New Years. The 5 days you work are very "hours non-compliant", but it's worth it for the time off - which is not included in the vacation time either.

Nobody bugs anybody else about this vacation or sick time. As far as I know, nobody abuses it either. It seems to work. I have never had anyone give me a hard time when I was sick. Of course, when most of us call in sick, there was an ER visit or something serious involved. People take maternity leave without getting a hard time either.

So not sure what you're looking for, but I'd guess that the above set-up for vacation time is as good as you're gonna get.

what makes you say we're spoiled?

we as medical students and residents should be constantly fighting for more reimbursement and more vacation along with less work hours

the unwillingness of our profession to constantly fight for benefits/salary increases has led to the decreasing reimbursements we are currently facing.

 

[typhoonegator]

what makes you say we're spoiled?

we as medical students and residents should be constantly fighting for more reimbursement and more vacation along with less work hours

the unwillingness of our profession to constantly fight for benefits/salary increases has led to the decreasing reimbursements we are currently facing.

This is why I'm starting to feel like an old fogey. I completely disagree with this statement, and I don't want to ever work with colleagues who feel this way. You SHOULD be constantly fighting to be a better doctor for your patients. Being a good doctor requires lots of practice, and lots of time. If that makes you sad, then you should have done something else with your life. Thankfully, after four years of residency, and with another three years of fellowship looming, I still have this perspective.

Also, the second comment has little or nothing to do with the first. There are many reasons for declining reimbursement, but fighting for fewer work hours and more vacation is not going to make reimbursements magically increase.

 

[EternalMD]

exactly.

residents/physicians in academic medical centers annoy me to no end.

they act like we should feel GUILTY for worrying about things like vacation/sick days etc....

this is why I encourage all med students/residents to take every break/day off/vacation day you are legally entitled to.

As rebellious as you may try to portray yourself online, I highly doubt you will sing the same tune when, as a medical student, your grade is on the line. But by all means, please tell your course director you're not feeling well and won't be coming in. Tell us how that goes.

 

[roflcakes887]

As rebellious as you may try to portray yourself online, I highly doubt you will sing the same tune when, as a medical student, your grade is on the line. But by all means, please tell your course director you're not feeling well and won't be coming in. Tell us how that goes.

Medicine is all about playing the game and keeping your mouth shut until you have a few years of residency under your belt.

My point is, medicine is a job, and like any job, you should constantly be fighting for increased pay, more vacation and less work hours.

Attendings and hospitals currently dismiss students who think like me as "uncaring" and "in the wrong profession" so they can continue exploiting residents for many years, paying them 1/10 of what they are worth.

Residency is nothing more than a sham to exploit people to work for a fraction of the amount of revenue they are generating for the hospital/department.

 

[typhoonegator]

Strong words from a medical student. You have no idea what you are talking about. You seem very troll-ish, so this will be my last post on this topic.

Residency is, in fact, more than a sham to exploit people. It is the mechanism by which you learn how to be a real doctor. Once you know how to do everything, you can take as much time off as you like.

If you were on my service and you asked for a day off because you felt entitled to one, I would destroy you. Not just because I could, but because you need to learn that you aren't the center of the universe, and every time you slack off, everyone else has to work harder. This is why medicine is not, as you say, just "a job". The work has to get done every day (and night), or people die and/or take up beds for unreimbursed hospital-days. It's not like it all just piles up on your desk while you enjoy your time off.

Best of luck; I'm sure your attitude will make you very popular with your colleagues.

 

[typhoonegator]

Sorry about the repeat posting. My browser crashed.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Attendings and hospitals currently dismiss students who think like me as "uncaring" and "in the wrong profession" so they can continue exploiting residents for many years, paying them 1/10 of what they are worth.

Feel free to blame the government for how little residents make. Your attendings almost certainly think you should make more but have absolutely NO input into resident salary.

As for the 1/10th, I think you vastly overestimate how much residents are worth.

Residency is nothing more than a sham to exploit people to work for a fraction of the amount of revenue they are generating for the hospital/department.

Since residents do not generate revenue for the hospital (as they cannot bill unless they are licensed, have an NPI #, are on insurance plans, etc.), this argument doesn't wash. Residents SAVE hospitals money because they are doing the work that would require several allied health care workers to do in their stead.

Residency is a period of education and training. Residents are not fully trained physicians and while they should make more money, to claim they should be making the salary of a fully trained physician is ridiculous.

 

[roflcakes887]

Since residents do not generate revenue for the hospital (as they cannot bill unless they are licensed, have an NPI #, are on insurance plans, etc.), this argument doesn't wash. Residents SAVE hospitals money because they are doing the work that would require several allied health care workers to do in their stead.

Residency is a period of education and training. Residents are not fully trained physicians and while they should make more money, to claim they should be making the salary of a fully trained physician is ridiculous.

Agreed, a different cost-benefit analysis, but we both concur that hospitals either generate or save (depending upon type of analysis) lots of money because they would have to pay other providers alot more money to do the job of a resident.

Residents should indeed make the money of a fully trained physician since the expertise of a fully trained physician is counterbalanced by the extra productivity and savings that residents generate for the hospital.

 

[roflcakes887]

If you were on my service and you asked for a day off because you felt entitled to one, I would destroy you. Not just because I could, but because you need to learn that you aren't the center of the universe, and every time you slack off, everyone else has to work harder. This is why medicine is not, as you say, just "a job". The work has to get done every day (and night), or people die and/or take up beds for unreimbursed hospital-days. It's not like it all just piles up on your desk while you enjoy your time off.

Best of luck; I'm sure your attitude will make you very popular with your colleagues.

Hey look, we have a tough guy on the forums.

Medicine is in fact a job. My job is to provide services that are outlined in my contract. Nothing more.

If you want to be a saint and save the world, that's fine. Some of us went into medicine to make good money and have job security.

Save your preaching and patient advocacy for someone else.

If you don't like taking care of uninsured patients, don't work at a hospital/clinic that has to deal with them. It is very simple.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Residents should indeed make the money of a fully trained physician since the expertise of a fully trained physician is counterbalanced by the extra productivity and savings that residents generate for the hospital.

But this is again where you are wrong. However, since you have not likely experienced non-academic medicine you can be excused from this common misunderstanding.

Resident physicians and academic hospitals are NOT more productive. Training physicians slows things down, and attendings are less efficient and bring in less money than if they were in private practice.

Academic hospitals are bastions of inefficiency from slow OR turn-over times and staff who don't give a fig about scheduling cases efficiently to allied staff who don't work on the weekends or make effort to move patients out. I remember being pleasantly shocked when I found out that I could arrange visiting nurses or a nursing home transfer on the weekend because I had an in-house social worker/case manager and others for whom the concept that its after 3:00 pm on Friday meant nothing if the patient needed assistance.

Having residents is nice, but I am much more efficient without them, can do more cases, bring in more money and generally be more productive. This is not specific to me by any means. Academic hospitals realize this and while the work they do does save the hospital money (from paying for more allied health personnel or perhaps its physician employees more), productivity in terms of patient census, billing, work done, is far below that of non-academic institutions.