Residency Workload and Benefits??

[pod2015]

Hello everyone. I am an incoming student this fall of the class of 2015. I've been spending some effort learning more about the overall curriculum for podiatry school. I was wondering what being a resident is like each year. I really would like to know about the average workweek for a resident. I've heard about MD's in residency working a crazy amount of hours like 70 or more per week and I was wondering how DPM residents compare? I also would like to know how residents are reimbursed for their time outside of the salary which from what I have found ranges from low 40's to low 50's. Do the residency sites pay for housing and other necessities?


Thanks

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[Podfather]

Hello everyone. I am an incoming student this fall of the class of 2015. I've been spending some effort learning more about the overall curriculum for podiatry school. I was wondering what being a resident is like each year. I really would like to know about the average workweek for a resident. I've heard about MD's in residency working a crazy amount of hours like 70 or more per week and I was wondering how DPM residents compare? I also would like to know how residents are reimbursed for their time outside of the salary which from what I have found ranges from low 40's to low 50's. Do the residency sites pay for housing and other necessities?


Thanks

Salaries average 35-50K. At our program benefits include: Malpractice, health, dental, vision, life, and disabilty insurance. In addition residents are given: dues for all national organizations, vacation/sick time, 2 labcoats per year, pager, access to Present learning, various educational materials(cadaver limbs, lab equipment) and free food in the hospital. Housing is usually not covered by residencies.

 

[Podiatry1]

Salaries average 35-50K. At our program benefits include: Malpractice, health, dental, vision, life, and disabilty insurance. In addition residents are given: dues for all national organizations, vacation/sick time, 2 labcoats per year, pager, access to Present learning, various educational materials(cadaver limbs, lab equipment) and free food in the hospital. Housing is usually not covered by residencies.

I am also curious about the hours. I am pre-pod.

Is there a average time/week that residents work? is it 50-60 hours/week usually?

Podfather if you do not mind could you describe an average week in the life of a resident?

Thanks so much for your help! Truly appreciated!

 

[bonvivant07]

There is a list of all the residencies and what benefits you get. I assume over all, all the residencies give you the basics.

There are some cool benefits like free breakfast and lunch.

As for hour, from what I have heard, it all depends on what year. Also, depends on how much you want to learn and how the residency is structured. I would say that it won't be less than 50 hours a week

 

[347932]

There is a federally imposed cap of no more than 80 hours per week of work as a resident. This includes journal clubs, grand rounds, M&M, and any other type of educational residency activities.

 

[Feli]

Go read House of God (by Shem)... great book that's hilarious, tragic, and true all at the same time. It's a real must-read for every pre-med student IMO. Then, read a travel book about your favorite place/country followed by watching a commercial for your favorite luxury car company on Youtube...

In reality, residency's pretty much somewhere in the middle

There are all kinds of intensities of pod surg residencies. I'd say it's a tad on the easy side of the median among MD/DO specialty residency hours (best would be rads, derm, path, fam med, anesth, etc)... definitely on the easy end among MD/DO residency length/intensities among surg specialties (other good ones would be opthalmo, plastics, ENT, OMFS, hand surg, etc).

 

[air bud]

I am in it for the free lab coats.

 

[dtrack22]

To add to Feli's post, "Hot Lights Cold Steel" is a good read if you want to know what it's like to work long hours, get paid squat, and have a family. I think krabmas recommended it awhile back. Good book.

 

[347932]

Go read House of God (by Shem)... great book that's hilarious, tragic, and true all at the same time. It's a real must-read for every pre-med student IMO.

Love this book. Get it. NOW! Origins of the words "Gomer" and "Turf". A true classic.

 

[Feli]

To add to Feli's post, "Hot Lights Cold Steel" is a good read if you want to know what it's like to work long hours, get paid squat, and have a family. I think krabmas recommended it awhile back. Good book.

Yep, that's a good one... I esp liked it since it's a Mayo clinic ortho resident, and I'm from north MN. It's a lot more rigid and matter-of-fact, though. There is some good descriptions... and undoubtedly a few embellishments, but it's essentially a true story.

House of God is the best, though... shrinks definitely write the best books. The "glossary of terms" in the back for the reader to understand the House of God + MGH people, places, and slang is just way too funny.

 

[Podfather]

I am also curious about the hours. I am pre-pod.

Is there a average time/week that residents work? is it 50-60 hours/week usually?

Podfather if you do not mind could you describe an average week in the life of a resident?

Thanks so much for your help! Truly appreciated!

Hours are variable depending on your rotation. Covering the hospital in house patients can be demanding time wise depending how many patients are inpatient. Office rotations are less demanding than say your vascular/ortho rotations. Podiatric surgery is up and down depending upon the time of year/volume. No one does less than 40 hours and 50-70 hours is more typical.

Sharp residents spend a lot of time prepping for cases, reading, doing dissection, and organizing resident only group discussions. Some residents over the years have skated by and it shows down the road. Looks it not supposed to be easy and the more you push yourself the better. Did I tell you about the free labcoats LOL.

 

[Foot Doc]

every program is different and a lot of your "free" time can be used for self-directed learning.

As for averages, remember the average human has 1 testicle and 1 ovary.

 

[347932]

as for averages, remember the average human has 1 testicle and 1 ovary.

huh??

 

[darazon]

(2 testicles + 2 ovarys)/(2 people) = 1 ovary and one testicle per person

 

[dtrack22]

Here's to being above average for most of my life

 

[pod2015]

So were talking upwards of 60 hours per week and for low to mid 40's per year in terms of workload and salary as a rough average?

 

[347932]

So were talking upwards of 60 hours per week and for low to mid 40's per year in terms of workload and salary as a rough average?

That's about right. But really, you're not "working", you're training for your future. It shouldn't matter what the pay is OR the hours per week you put in are.

 

[air bud]

That's about right. But really, you're not "working", you're training for your future. It shouldn't matter what the pay is OR the hours per week you put in are.

amazing that some dont think like this

 

[347932]

amazing that some dont think like this

Agreed. There are many out there that feel that residency is a "job".

 

[Foot Doc]

That's about right. But really, you're not "working", you're training for your future. It shouldn't matter what the pay is OR the hours per week you put in are.

very awesomely put

 

[air bud]

Senior resident/attending says jump, I say how high.

 

[Feli]

That's about right. But really, you're not "working", you're training for your future. It shouldn't matter what the pay is OR the hours per week you put in are.

Yes and no. Basically, I would add a reasonably important asterisk to your statement:
*but hours will matter to your spouse

...You gotta sometimes work smarter, not harder. Case volume comes first... no question. Req call nights do make you better at trauma. Req academics and research do make you smarter. However, you reach points where you are so drained that you can't really absorb any more, and that can be problematic on your personal life if your program keeps pushing and pushing.

Assuming good case volume/diversity/quality, the residency programs that give you a decent amount of free time are ok, IF you are a motivated learner who will read, study, etc. The "top" programs that shovel academics, research, rounding, etc down your throat might not be the best for everyone. You can learn a lot at either type of program so long as the case volume's there, but the key difference is that the highly intense ones make you learn on their schedule while the more self directed ones trust their residents to learn on their own time. The highly intense ones will crank out a fairly cookie cutter high quality F&A surgeon (or fire them in the process), but the more self directed ones will vary depending on the quality of the residents they have. You have to know yourself and match where you think you'll find success (and keep your sanity/spouse/etc).

Senior resident/attending says jump, I say how high.

lolz

 

[347932]

Yes and no. Basically, I would add a reasonably important asterisk to your statement:
*but hours will matter to your spouse

...You gotta sometimes work smarter, not harder. Case volume comes first... no question. Req call nights do make you better at trauma. Req academics and research do make you smarter. However, you reach points where you are so drained that you can't really absorb any more, and that can be problematic on your personal life if your program keeps pushing and pushing.

Assuming good case volume/diversity/quality, the residency programs that give you a decent amount of free time are ok, IF you are a motivated learner who will read, study, etc. The "top" programs that shovel academics, research, rounding, etc down your throat might not be the best for everyone. You can learn a lot at either type of program so long as the case volume's there, but the key difference is that the highly intense ones make you learn on their schedule while the more self directed ones trust their residents to learn on their own time. The highly intense ones will crank out a fairly cookie cutter high quality F&A surgeon (or fire them in the process), but the more self directed ones will vary depending on the quality of the residents they have. You have to know yourself and match where you think you'll find success (and keep your sanity/spouse/etc).

lolz

I humbly disagree.

If your spouse has issues with you working crazy hours as a resident, and can't see that this is to better your and your family's future, you have bigger issues in your life than completing your residency. Furthermore, if you REALLY want to succeed and more than just provide minimally for your family, you better be prepared to work LONG and HARD to achieve financial success in our profession once out of residency.

You can't afford to work smart when you're in residency, since you have little control over your work per se. You do what you have to do and get out with the best training you can. THEN worry about the hard vs. smart analogy. What you will find though, is that those that work both HARD and SMART are the ones with the greatest success. They are not mutually exclusive by any stretch.

You should have virtually ZERO "free time" in residency whether it's self imposed or not. Immerse yourself as deeply as you can in your training. It will make you the best Podiatric Physician/Surgeon that you can be. Residency is truly a magical time. You're at a point in your career when you can still absorb a tremendous amount of information and put it to use to better your training, and since you are fresh out of school you should be at the PEAK of your knowledge base, considering all the information you've gathered throughout your school and in your travels in externship and clerkship.Yeesh, I sound like Yoda...ok maybe not...

 

[pod2015]

amazing that some dont think like this

Its amazing that some people think like YOU.

At 50K for 4 years of tuition, money is obviously very important to any realistic person who is currently paying for their education. Most people don't have their parents paying for their tuition buddy.

 

[347932]

Its amazing that some people think like YOU.

At 50K for 4 years of tuition, money is obviously very important to any realistic person who is currently paying for their education. Most people don't have their parents paying for their tuition buddy.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down there.

If you're worried about making money while you're still technically a student (in residency, you're still learning a great deal, and under the direct supervision of your attending surgeons), then perhaps medicine is not the profession for you. Remember that some surgical residencies are FAR longer than ours (neurosurgery comes to mind) where you are paid as a resident for upwards of NINE YEARS. A PGY-9 makes just shy of $60K/year. Again, if you're worried about your pay while in residency, then you are barking up the wrong tree altogether. Just as a side note, when I was a resident (I know, I walked uphill both ways in snow with no shoes on), I made about $18K a year for three years, and it didn't bother me one bit. This was ONLY 12 years ago.

I could be wrong, as it's been awhile, but I think you can still defer payment on your student loans while you are in residency.

Lastly, please refrain from personal attacks, as this is not what this forum is about. Making assumptions about who is paying for what doesn't add to this thread. Thanks.

 

[Foot Doc]

Its amazing that some people think like YOU.

At 50K for 4 years of tuition, money is obviously very important to any realistic person who is currently paying for their education. Most people don't have their parents paying for their tuition buddy.

$12.5K per year for POD tuition? Thats a steal! Is there a caribbean POD school now?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down there.

If you're worried about making money while you're still technically a student (in residency, you're still learning a great deal, and under the direct supervision of your attending surgeons), then perhaps medicine is not the profession for you. Remember that some surgical residencies are FAR longer than ours (neurosurgery comes to mind) where you are paid as a resident for upwards of NINE YEARS. A PGY-9 makes just shy of $60K/year. Again, if you're worried about your pay while in residency, then you are barking up the wrong tree altogether. Just as a side note, when I was a resident (I know, I walked uphill both ways in snow with no shoes on), I made about $18K a year for three years, and it didn't bother me one bit. This was ONLY 12 years ago.

I could be wrong, as it's been awhile, but I think you can still defer payment on your student loans while you are in residency.

Lastly, please refrain from personal attacks, as this is not what this forum is about. Making assumptions about who is paying for what doesn't add to this thread. Thanks.

Yeah, I agree. Live within your means as a resident. You won't be investing in a surgery center just yet.

BTW personal attacks suck.

 

[pod2015]

Sorry that I was attacking, but I felt under fire for asking about money, workload, and benefits for a career that I am investing many years and close to 200K (you obviously know what I mean by 50k per year for 4 years). I feel like these are legitimate questions that most students should and will be asking down the road regardless of what their true motivation is for choosing podiatry and healthcare in general as a profession. I do not think that being concerned about my financial future puts whether medicine is the correct profession for me into question. I think that it is normal for most 21 year old incoming students to aspire to have great success academically, professionally, and especially financially. I also think it is normal to ask the rough number of hours residents end up working since at my age I have never worked over 45 hours in a week ever in my life before, so working 60 sounds very daunting. I am obviously young and have so much to learn in the next 4 and then 3 years, but to ask questions about time and money and hear about how its crazy that I think that way is simply unfair. When you think about some of the issues looming over incoming students today, such as healthcare reform, you have to realize how scary that is for students taking out massive loans with the future of healthcare still up in the air.

I appreciate everyone answering my questions about my near future, I guess I just wanted to hear everyones take on residency because I shadowed over the past year(mostly MD's however) and a number of residents look exhausted and unhappy, one resident even told me to "think twice about my future". I just want to make sure this isn't the norm. I'm pretty passionate about medicine, this is something that I have wanted to do for many years, but I'm realizing that its much less glamorous than I had originally thought.

 

[Sig Savant]

The highly intense ones will crank out a fairly cookie cutter high quality F&A surgeon (or fire them in the process)

This is a very insightful sentence. Its important to not just seek out the "best residency" if you can't put in the work, as you will end up fired. You must be realistic. As Feli is alluding to, high intensity programs can and will fire their residents, sometimes all of them.

Nobody here is singling out any specific program, but residency is an individualized fit with a lot of egos involved. Depending on where you do your clerkships, you will probably come to realize that there are some programs that are hard because there's a ton of patient-related work to be done, but sometimes programs are just hard for the sake of being hard. It can be a trickle down effect from the director/attendings/chiefs ("my first year was hell and my attendings were strict, so now it's your turn").

At most historic "top programs" you will find a rigid structure (academics, rounding, cadavers, research, etc) and residents who are run fairly ragged. Residents then have almost no choice but to work a ton and graduate the program as an outstanding surgeon (or get fired along the way). It really is a military-type of rank system at some programs, and that means some of the insults, orders, duties, etc can be intimidating and tempers run short (it doesn't really make you Mr. Friendly when you sleep 3-5hrs per night with barely any days off). The downside of intense training is that you could become pretty miserable and have a tough time taking care of your family/health/sanity/etc if you don't realize what you're getting into.

It's like that old saying "no matter how hot the girl, there's a guy somewhere who is sick of her BS." Well, same goes for residencies...

Naturally, some good students now try to find a program with similar numbers and opportunity as the elite programs... but with more flexibility. However, that flexibility means it's up to each resident whether they want read, research, etc to graduate the program as a great surgeon or whether they want to do the minimum and end up just average. At most residencies, just like most classes, the efforts and interest level of the person learning matters as much or more than the efforts of the person teaching.

Tough programs with famous attendings and successful almuni will always get a lot of interest, though. They are famous because they've gotten results and obviously give you what you need. I'd say the majority of people who are in professional school are at least somewhat type A personalities who like structure. With the podiatry graduate:residency ratio swinging back in favor of the programs pretty soon, I really doubt you will see any dropoff in interest for any program that has good numbers and/or history of successful grads. The key is just to find the residency that is the right fit for you personally (structure, faculty, types of cases, co-residents, location, etc).

 

[347932]

Every single day in podiatry school and in residency you should be able to wake up, look at yourself in the mirror and say "I'm doing this because I WANT to". If you can't admit that to yourself honestly, you are in trouble.

 

[air bud]

Every single day in podiatry school and in residency you should be able to wake up, look at yourself in the mirror and say "I'm doing this because I WANT to". If you can't admit that to yourself honestly, you are in trouble.

 

[PADPM]

I think that both Kidsfeet and Feli have both made excellent points, even though they disagreed.

Feli's points are well taken, and I agree that for some residents being forced to work/learn vs. working/learning on your own is a huge difference. Some eventually come to resent being forced to do anything and it can actually become counter-productive.

I actually want my residents to be self-motivated and don't want to have to force them to work X amount of hours or force certain academics upon them. Ultimately, if the right residents are chosen, and they are steered down the right path they will seek knowledge and want to work hard. If they don't, in my opinion it's an indication they probably won't succeed in the outside world.

I do agree with Kidsfeet that throughout the entire endeavor it is imperative to have the support of your spouse, since it really is a means to an end, and your spouse must see the big picture. A friend of mine's wife is ALWAYS bitching how he works long hours, is at the hospital a lot and doesn't spend enough time with her. But she NEVER complains about her luxury cars, her beautiful second home, the fact that she goes to the gym and nail salon every day (while he's busting his balls), and wears expensive clothes and jewelery, takes exotic vacations, etc.

Once in the real world you have the opportunity to kick back if that's what you choose. There is a doc on this board (NaTCh) who is very happy with the way he practices and enjoys the beauty of the great outdoors in his home state and said he only works about 15 hours weekly, and has 2 partners that do the same. He is successful and happy.

My partners and I have a very large practice and we work very hard and ridiculous hours. We created the monster and it's what we choose, so we can't bitch about it. When I work, I work hard and when I play, I play hard. It's very cliche, but it's true.

It's worked for me but it's not the recipe for everyone. But I WOULD recommend everyone work as hard as possible during residency, since it's a one time opportunity and probably the best time of your professional career.

 

[newankle]

It somewhat bothers me that people question/complain about working 60 or 80 hours per week in residency. I distinctly remember putting in 120 hours many weeks during my residency and yes I had a spouse.

 

[PADPM]

It somewhat bothers me that people question/complain about working 60 or 80 hours per week in residency. I distinctly remember putting in 120 hours many weeks during my residency and yes I had a spouse.

Better not show this to your wife if you're still married.....you'd better change it to I have a spouse.

 

[Feli]

...Feli's points are well taken, and I agree that for some residents being forced to work/learn vs. working/learning on your own is a huge difference. Some eventually come to resent being forced to do anything and it can actually become counter-productive...

Yep. Sometimes, it all comes down to knowing yourself, your spouse, your family, and your long term goals.

There's some guys out there who are like Chinese fighting fish: dynamic, beautiful, and unique... fine on their own tank, but if you put them in the same aquarium as another of the same kind, you had better watch out... there will be fireworks. I met some such attendings/residents on my clerkships. Technically, based on attending>resident>student, I guess I was a fighting fish while they were barracudas and great white sharks... but you get the idea

I did some real ball buster clerkships, and a lot of my classmates were somewhat mystified with my residency choice... "you cancelled your interview at Atlanta?" "you're not gonna try for West Penn?" "you didn't even apply to Presby?" "you don't want all the trauma at DMC?" At the end of the day, I'm quite satisfied, and I wouldn't change a thing. I've learned a ton, done tons of cases, I enjoy virtually every experience at work, and I still have over a year left (no call 3rd year, though ). I spent today BBQ-ing, relaxing, reading a bit, and I'm going out to the bar tonight. It's cliches, but, they're cliche for a reason...

"You only live once."
"You always have to look out for number 1."
"To each his own."
"Live and let live."

 

[skiz knot]

every program is different and a lot of your "free" time can be used for self-directed learning.

As for averages, remember the average human has 1 testicle and 1 ovary.

Slightly less than one testicle and slightly less than 1 ovary.

 

[PodunkUDPM]

Anybody else hear that 1st years soon might not be allowed to take call across the nation?