Residents and Acute Alcohol Treatment

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MyNameIsOtto

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One of my resident buddies at another program was brought to the hospital he is a resident at this weekend for partying too hard with acute alcohol intoxication. Does anyone have experience with this negatively impacting residency status? We aren't talking about a case of alcoholism...

-Otto

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No personal experience but...

while your friend may or may not be an alcoholic he certainly is abusing alcohol (and presumably at an age and position where he should know better).

I would expect his program to make him attend mandatory alcohol counseling. It may not affect his residency position, but he can expect to be asked about it during the licensing process and later, during hospital credentialing.
 
this is a gray area. His residency program may not find out about it- it depends on the ER attending's assessment of the situation. If your friend's residency program finds out about it from anyone other than the ER attending (or possibly a resident directly involve in his care), your friend may have grounds for a lawsuit.
 
Very insightful guys...

Anyone else?
 
The hospital is a hotbed of gossip, HIPAA violation or not especially for something as interesting as this.

Lesson: be treated elsewhere (and even that isn't a failsafe, as people can still find out).
 
No personal experience but...

while your friend may or may not be an alcoholic he certainly is abusing alcohol (and presumably at an age and position where he should know better).

I would expect his program to make him attend mandatory alcohol counseling. It may not affect his residency position, but he can expect to be asked about it during the licensing process and later, during hospital credentialing.
Agree that he should know better, but if this didn't cause him to miss work or any other work-related offense that would somehow let the program know something was going on, then the program shouldn't/won't find out.

If you have Saturday off, and you get drunk out of your mind on Friday night, and get brought into the ED without breaking any laws, then I don't see how/why the program should find out. It's still a very poor decision, obviously.

The hospital is a hotbed of gossip, HIPAA violation or not especially for something as interesting as this.

Lesson: be treated elsewhere (and even that isn't a failsafe, as people can still find out).
Seems like the resident could get more money out of the program/hospital in a lawsuit for a breach of that magnitude than he could in years of practice. The damages are easily in the millions, if this guy were to lose his position.

Maybe aPD can comment, but if someone spilled the beans to the PD about it, the PD would be very wise not to make a move based on gossip like that.
 
Agree that he should know better, but if this didn't cause him to miss work or any other work-related offense that would somehow let the program know something was going on, then the program shouldn't/won't find out.

If you have Saturday off, and you get drunk out of your mind on Friday night, and get brought into the ED without breaking any laws, then I don't see how/why the program should find out. It's still a very poor decision, obviously.


Seems like the resident could get more money out of the program/hospital in a lawsuit for a breach of that magnitude than he could in years of practice. The damages are easily in the millions, if this guy were to lose his position.

Maybe aPD can comment, but if someone spilled the beans to the PD about it, the PD would be very wise not to make a move based on gossip like that.

I agree that while its a bad decision, its his own business and given HIPAA, his program shouldn't find out.

What I am surmising is that they WILL find out.

I'd like to hear what aPD has to say as well; if this information becomes available to his residency program, are they obligated to follow through with a reasonable suspicion in order to help with a potential problem or given that this was ostensibly on his off time and did not impact his work, would they best keep mum about it?
 
i have a friend who during his rotation years, ate too many psychedelic mushrooms and ended up going to the ER. there were 2 hospitals in the area and he opted to go to the one where he wasn't doing rotations. so for any future parties, maybe your friend should do the same thing
 
This is a really good question, I'll try to do it justice. I'm going to broaden it a bit: "Can your program discipline (or remediate) you for your behavior when off duty?"

Examples could include:
A. The above, someone presenting with acute alcohol poisoning and raising the concern for alcohol abuse. Or, perhaps add a DUI to the scenario.
B. A resident decides to have a second job, stripping, and is found out. Pictures are posted on the web by a "concerned citizen".
C. A resident is a chronic smoker. Although smoking is not allowed on hospital grounds, they leave during their lunch break to smoke. Everyone, including patients, can smell it on them when they return. Discussions about how patients should quit smoking have led to statements like "But I can tell you're smoking doc, so I don't see why I should stop". Although the resident answers with "My behavior is as poor as yours, and I'm working on quitting" (or something similar, but nicer sounding), concerns are raised that they are not setting a good example.

First, a couple of points:

1. I am not a lawyer. I don't want to be a lawyer. All I know is my experience, and what I can read on the interwebs. Some of the following could be wrong.
2. Each state's laws are different. No matter what happens to your "buddy" next door, your experience in your own state could be very different.

That said:

If you google this, you'll find that the answer is usually (for most jobs) "no". I think we all would like to think that what we do in our private lives is no business of our employer. But don't be fooled, because being a physician is not most jobs, and exceptions are allowed when the employees actions create a "workplace nexus" -- a connection between the activity and the employer's legitimate interests.

This connection usually includes: 1) harm to the employer's reputation; 2) the behavior renders the employee unable to perform their job; 3) other employees refuse/are reluctant to work with the employee because of the behavior; 4) the behavior makes it difficult for the employer to do its work / direct its workforce; or 5) the behavior is a criminal violation severe enough to injure the reputation of the business or co-employees.

Also, the amount of publicity involved, the likelihood that the employer will lose business, how much contact the employee has with the public, and whether success in the position relies on leadership and trust.

Once you digest all that, you can see that there is a significant grey area here. In the case at hand, I don't think the story meets the above criteria. The program won't have any adverse consequences. But, what if some interns are now "reluctant" to work with this person. I personally find that an over-reaction, and not reasonable.

But, add some meat to the story -- like the person is charged with a DWI, or that they crashed into the ED waiting room (hurting no one), or otherwise end up on the cover of the local newspaper, and all of a sudden the same situation starts to trigger the above.

And the situation is actually a bit more complicated when you're dealing with alcohol and drugs, because the state's BOM could get involved. Unlike most other institutions, the BOM has AMAZING reach into you and your history. There is essentially no privacy between you and a Board inquiry. So, should the PD call the BOM and make an anonymous report that said resident was seen in the ED with alcohol intoxication, its very likely that the BOM will investigate, pull your medical records for review (and you can't stop them), and call you in for a review. If they put any limits on your license, then your program can fire you for that, and this type of thing is forever reportable on every credentialing / license application you ever complete going forward.

So, in the thread's case, without more I doubt anything will come of this. If there was more - publicity, DUI, etc -- then it's a real risk.

In case B above, the resident might be terminated, especially if any patients asked to be moved to a new doctor (again, assuming some sort of publicity).

Case C is really complicated. Some states have laws that protect employees who use legal substances. If that's the case, then no action can be taken regardless of whom complains. If not, it could easily rise to the level of concern. Also, the resident taking "breaks" for smoking off campus is probably a violation, unless they have arranged coverage of their pager when away and pre-approved this with their program.

Will be interesting if L2D drops by.
 
Honestly, winding up in the hospital for intoxication is probably an indication of a problem that this resident should probably think about. I have trouble believing that someone who can be hospitalized for drinking too much never has his work impaired by his drinking, so I hate to sound moralistic and all, but I think your pal should do some examining (the board of medicine in your state would probably agree with me, too).

About the privacy issue, it's possible this incident could lead one of his providers to think he/she has an obligation to do something about this. I'm not sure how our reporting duties and HIPAA interact, but I don't think HIPAA is a complete protection for health care providers and substance usage issues.
 
Somewhat agree with above. As an ED attending, most drunks who show up have some sort of problem with a couple of exceptions.

If you're drinking to the point that you're unconscious at the bar or on the street, then yeah, you've got a problem even if you're not a daily drinker. If you're drinking with some nonmedical buddies and you've got a case of serious gastritis and you're too drunk to realize you need a bottle of maalox, a toilet bowl, and some sleep, then I can see a trip to the ED for stupidity, but not for a drinking problem.
 
I'm not sure how our reporting duties and HIPAA interact, but I don't think HIPAA is a complete protection for health care providers and substance usage issues.

I agree with this, assuming the "provider" is someone directly involved in his care. In other words, I think it is fine if the ER doc seeing him reported the resident, not ok if the urologist passing through the ER started a rumor that got to his program
 
I agree with this, assuming the "provider" is someone directly involved in his care. In other words, I think it is fine if the ER doc seeing him reported the resident, not ok if the urologist passing through the ER started a rumor that got to his program
Agreed. The provider on record should be the only one to do anything to this effect, since they were the one present and treating.
 
And the situation is actually a bit more complicated when you're dealing with alcohol and drugs, because the state's BOM could get involved. Unlike most other institutions, the BOM has AMAZING reach into you and your history. There is essentially no privacy between you and a Board inquiry. So, should the PD call the BOM and make an anonymous report that said resident was seen in the ED with alcohol intoxication, its very likely that the BOM will investigate, pull your medical records for review (and you can't stop them), and call you in for a review. If they put any limits on your license, then your program can fire you for that, and this type of thing is forever reportable on every credentialing / license application you ever complete going forward.

This.

The Board should be your buddy's principal worry, not the residency program.

I'd be interested to hear whether this individual's right to (medical) privacy outweighs Board's duty to protect the public from impaired physicians.
 
This.

The Board should be your buddy's principal worry, not the residency program.

I'd be interested to hear whether this individual's right to (medical) privacy outweighs Board's duty to protect the public from impaired physicians.

I agree. The odds of being fired straight out for something like this are lower than the odds of getting reported to the board. If this guy thinks maybe he does have a problem, it would probably be in his best interest to contact his state's impaired physician's program (assuming they still have one -- California doesn't) and play nice, asking for help.

As for reporting, I think we're pretty fair game for having our providers report us if they suspect possible impairment. From a legal perspective, I also bet the board's duty to protect the public outweighs any of our privacy interests.
 
I agree that a person (even if not the treating doc) is protected in reporting to the BOM. I am revising my previous answer and now think there is probably some protection in reporting to the program director.

The issue, in either scenario, is how the info was obtained. IF the person found out by improper means (by looking through the chart of someone who wasn't his patient, talking to ER nurses, etc), there would be HIPAA liability. Of course, the drunk resident would have to realize that this occurred, and this is not an issue for anonymous complaints.

In other words, reporting relevant info is protected. But that doesn't justify HIPAA violations in the gathering of the information.
 
With my state board, anyone can request an inquiry into a physician as long as the inquiry was reasonable and made in good faith; and all inquiries are anonymous...
 
With my state board, anyone can request an inquiry into a physician as long as the inquiry was reasonable and made in good faith; and all inquiries are anonymous...

yeah....most states(at least the 47 or so they have physician monitoring programs) would go about this all the same if it was found out that a resident came into the er with alcohol poisoning: A representative from the program would contact the resident and feel it out. If he was convinced it was just something silly and there was no issue, it would just be dropped at that. If he wasn't, he would ask the resident to get an initial screen(likely someone in addiction could do this) for recs. The recs from this would then be passed along to the monitoring program, and the recs would generally either be no further assessment needed vs a formal eval at an approved center(bradford would be one for example). So it would mostly be handled through the physician monitoring program(not the program) and there would be a couple of steps to the process....

Even if the resident in question was the world's biggest alcoholic, he likely would just have to go to formal treatment(residential) and enroll in the state monitoring program and would stay in good standing with the program. His career wouldnt by any means by seriously damaged if he did well and kept clean in the monitoring program.
 
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