Residents are leaving to pursue non-clinical options

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Wow. Way to fall into the pattern. What I'm saying is it's more a regional thing. Rotating through 6 hospitals is great unless they're all in the same area. Then you just get 6 different sites of all the same regional social norms.

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Wow. Way to fall into the pattern. What I'm saying is it's more a regional thing. Rotating through 6 hospitals is great unless they're all in the same area. Then you just get 6 different sites of all the same regional social norms.

That's true. Being that we're in a major metropolitan city, the competition is cut throat. I'm sure in less competitive regions, things are a bit more civil.
 
I just started my second year of medical school, and already have doubts about it all. I actually came into it with doubts, and I am already starting to look into non-clinical options for once I graduate, in another 2 years! Should I get out now?? I don't know what else I would be doing right now, although I have many career interests. I'm afraid that my primary motivation for staying are because of my parents (they're dreams came true when I came to med school), and my husband is a student with me (convenient). This is my future and I don't want to get in too deep...

Nervous, scared, unsure.:confused:
 
I just started my second year of medical school, and already have doubts about it all. I actually came into it with doubts, and I am already starting to look into non-clinical options for once I graduate, in another 2 years! Should I get out now?? I don't know what else I would be doing right now, although I have many career interests. I'm afraid that my primary motivation for staying are because of my parents (they're dreams came true when I came to med school), and my husband is a student with me (convenient). This is my future and I don't want to get in too deep...

Nervous, scared, unsure.:confused:

Find a residency and get through it. Get your boards. Then go do something nonclinical if you want. You'll likely find more opportunities that way than otherwise. Plus you usually need a full license and that usually requires at least a year to be able to sit for Step 3.
 
Find a residency and get through it. Get your boards. Then go do something nonclinical if you want. You'll likely find more opportunities that way than otherwise. Plus you usually need a full license and that usually requires at least a year to be able to sit for Step 3.
I dunno, if she's only one year in and knows for sure that she doesn't want to be a doc, it probably doesn't make sense to take on another three years' worth of debt just for the pleasure of being an intern and taking Step 3.

Student, I'd start by contacting the career office at your UG college. If you're just one year out of UG, maybe they'd be able to help you with figuring out where to go from here. If not, you need to find career counseling somewhere else. Maybe try the university associated with your medical school. Sticking with med school is always an option too, but speaking as someone who went through both med school and now most of residency with doubts, if I could do it all again, I wouldn't have stayed in med school. It doesn't get "better" the longer you go on through your training. You do eventually reach a point where it doesn't make sense to quit any more, but I don't think the beginning of your second year is that point. If you're going to quit, the sooner you do it the better.

Hope this helps, and best of luck.
 
I dunno, if she's only one year in and knows for sure that she doesn't want to be a doc, it probably doesn't make sense to take on another three years' worth of debt just for the pleasure of being an intern and taking Step 3.

Student, I'd start by contacting the career office at your UG college. If you're just one year out of UG, maybe they'd be able to help you with figuring out where to go from here. If not, you need to find career counseling somewhere else. Maybe try the university associated with your medical school. Sticking with med school is always an option too, but speaking as someone who went through both med school and now most of residency with doubts, if I could do it all again, I wouldn't have stayed in med school. It doesn't get "better" the longer you go on through your training. You do eventually reach a point where it doesn't make sense to quit any more, but I don't think the beginning of your second year is that point. If you're going to quit, the sooner you do it the better.

Hope this helps, and best of luck.

True, she can drop out and save on debt. If she wants to pursue nonclinical medical jobs with an MD, though, she'll have far more opportunities with a full license and far more with board certification. But there is alot of time and commitment to get there...
 
I just started my second year of medical school, and already have doubts about it all. I actually came into it with doubts, and I am already starting to look into non-clinical options for once I graduate, in another 2 years! Should I get out now?? I don't know what else I would be doing right now, although I have many career interests. I'm afraid that my primary motivation for staying are because of my parents (they're dreams came true when I came to med school), and my husband is a student with me (convenient). This is my future and I don't want to get in too deep...

Nervous, scared, unsure.:confused:

The safest way to explore your other interests (without burning bridges completely) is to take an academic leave of absence for a year. During this time, you can pursue whatever, and may also try shadowing a medicine or surgery intern on call (yes, the entire call day) to get a glimpse of the future and see if you can envision yourself in their shoes.

I agree: it does not "get better" if your heart is not in it. However, without knowing specifics, e.g. "what is your UG major?" "what are the reasons you think medicine is not for you?" and "what other career interests or additional training are you willing to pursue?" it is hard to give you advice. I strongly believe, however, that only "YOU" knows what is the right thing to do in this situation.
 
Get out now. Seriously. If you have doubts while in med school, these doubts will only continue to fester. They may go away for some time when you are on a good/interesting rotation or when you are studying a particularly interesting topic, but they will return. Things are much different once you are out of med school. You have much more responsibility as a resident and these responsibilities don't necessarily revolve around patient care or medicine at all. I spend probably 85-90% of my time sitting mindlessly in front of a computer churning out notes. I honestly feel like residents are just hired paper pushers that help comply with administrative/compliance BS. We aren't really physicians. It really is disheartening feeling like the educational and intellectual aspects of medicine take a distant back seat while in residency. I could go on for much longer, but I will spare you. Please think long and hard about this, but if you have doubts at this point, my advice is to get out now and enjoy your life. There is no reason to be a slave to a broken "medical" system. The docs don't run the show anymore.
 
Recently, I've been approached by many residents who wish to leave their program. Some have already left and they're looking for some job opportunities. Others are wrestling with the decision because they're not sure about their long-term career goals. When my wife was a chief resident at Penn, several residents left or switched to different residencies.

I'm curious - how often do you encounter residents who are serious about leaving? What type of advice do you give that's most effective in motivating them to stay in residency?

In China, most medical students leave for non-clinical jobs, why wouldn't they, when pharm jobs can feasibly pay 20x the salary of junior doctor jobs.
 
let's face it, most of us went into medicine for one reason... to help people right? WRONG. most of the people that I know went into medicine for other reasons having to do with having a stable, high income job, distrust of the establishment, prestige, distrust of business, and for the hell of it since no other profession was worth the time & training! Being a doc is still and will always be the one safe haven from the business cycle. What people don't realize is that there is nothing in medicine that is in of itself a sanctuary from the hardships dealing with the business cycle that pervade every other profession (including that of mid level providers such as NP's and PA's and nurses). The reason medicine is in a class of its own is due to the gargantuan barriers to entry. This is the only profession that tortures its entrants with 3 monster 8-16 hr exams just to make it into residency and then yearly monster ITE exams, the slave labor, and horrible lifestyle for 3-5 more years. With that being said, what do people expect? What most people in residency are feeling are the effects of the barriers to entry. Once you are an attending, you have passed go, and are in the thought after sanctuary land, the el dorado that we all strive for. At that point, the sky is the limit. You can work as little of as much as you would like, and have whatever hours you wish for. This is unlike any other job on the planet. The only better profession than medicine is being independently wealthy and doing absolutely nothing other than entertaining oneself. Doc's leaving because they find that medicine is not their "calling"... I don't buy that. We all knew that this was a Mt. Everest. We all knew that this would be as tough as surviving a concentration camp or WWII. You have to fight tooth and nail, with all that you've got to get where you rightfully deserve to be, or risk being forever trapped in a limbo of a half-made man/woman.
 
We all knew that this would be as tough as surviving a concentration camp or WWII.

It seems you're very bitter and unhappy in medicine. That is sad, because I find it an amazing career that I wouldn't swap with anything. I do agree that training is difficult, but there is much to learn. One could wonder whether training could be more focused -- if someone was interested in only outpatient primary care, perhaps we should have an outpatient only residency. But that would be career limiting for them, so there are pluses and minuses.

That said, I find the above statement to be unacceptable. Any suggestion that residency is anywhere near as degrading, dehumanizing, and traumatic as being a concentration camp survivor is insulting to the brave souls that survived Nazi torture.

Welcome to my ignore list. It was nice knowing you.
 
It is a long and complex story. i actually was a nontraditional student. Always wanted to be a doctor but life got in the way. Finally went back to med school at age 38. Loved being in med school, and matched into my #2 choice in general surgery. I thought life was going to be great!

After that, it was just a long, slow process of becoming dissatisfied. You don't realize how little control you have over things as a doctor. There is a lot of utterly stupid bureaucracy in medicine. And as the government tries to take control, more and more paperwork is required to prove you are meeting government guidelines.

Then there are the patients. They are getting harder to deal with- more demanding, more and more unreasonable expectations, more often with an in-your face confrontational attitude.



Ultimately, I rarely felt any sense of satisfaction from being a doctor. I still liked the intellectual aspects, and enjoyed being in conference discussing cases, but I wanted nothing to do with patients, or even a lot of nurses. I was tired of the pager intruding on my life. (at first it seems cool or exciitng when you get paged, but after a while I found that, at 2 am, I'd really rather just smash the pager into tiny bits)

As I was trying to get a handle on my dissatisfaction and figure out what to do, I read an article by a CT surgeon who had a heart attack himself and had to have surgery, and then slowed down his practice afterward. He described my feelings perfectly: society expects doctors to engage in "altruistic self destruction".

Ultimately, it came down to this: I had to meet everybody else's needs on demand (patients, nurses, attendings...) but nobody cared if my needs were or were not met. Nobody cared if I have time to eat, sleep or pee. When somebody decides they want something from me, they want it right now. If they don't get what they want when they want it, there are often complaints.

It doesn't matter if it's 8 pm and I've been in the OR all day now I have to do evening rounds. I stop in on pt 3 (of 15) and the room is packed with family members who have arrived from out of town, pt is several days post op, and the family bombards me for 30 min with questions (that I've already discussed with pt's spouse, but God forbid they talk to their own family). I have to smile and take it because if the family isn't happy they will go to administration and complain. So I leave the hospital at 9:30 pm, having missed out on my plans for the evening, and haven't eaten dinner. I'm dead dog tired- my back hurts, my knees hurt, my feet hurt. I have to arrive at hospital at 6 am and do it all over again. I have to prepare a talk for conference in 3 days. I don't have time to make anything healthy to eat,. So i shovel in some crappy food while spending a little time working on my presentation and then fall into bed exhausted. Get up at 5 to repeat the whole thing over again.

Ultimately the pain/benefit ratio wasn't worth it.

Maybe you won't find that these things bother you. Part of the problem with medicine is that you really don't get a good idea of what it is like, or if you can tolerate that reality, until you've invested so much money that it's too late. The student loan debt can be a huge trap. I find I recommend going though med school as cheap as possible, and avoiding debt as much as possible. You can't know now how things will play out. Nothing is worse than feeling trapped in a job/career you hate because of student loan debt.

This.
+1
 
let's face it, most of us went into medicine for one reason... to help people right? WRONG. most of the people that I know went into medicine for other reasons having to do with having a stable, high income job, distrust of the establishment, prestige, distrust of business, and for the hell of it since no other profession was worth the time & training! Being a doc is still and will always be the one safe haven from the business cycle. .

Being a doc is still somewhat of a safe haven in the business cycle. However, distrust of the establishment is no longer a good reason to go into medicine. A majority of docs are now part of corporate medicine; the number of small private practices (unaffiliated with hospitals) is rapidly declining.
 
Being a doc is still somewhat of a safe haven in the business cycle. However, distrust of the establishment is no longer a good reason to go into medicine. A majority of docs are now part of corporate medicine; the number of small private practices (unaffiliated with hospitals) is rapidly declining.
Agree with this 1000%

I also strongly disagree with the other post above stating, "You can work as much or as little as you want". This is true because part time jobs are pretty hard to come by - if you do fp, med/peds or maybe outpatient internal med, that might be possible. If you do dermatology and can afford to open your own office (not sure the overhead costs and logistics of doing that any more), you can do that. You might be able to do it in endocrinology, rheumatology, a few other fields. It's quite hard to do that in surgery, critical care, cardiology, many other fields, etc. Part of this is because most docs are employed by someone else, and probably more and more will be. We don't work for ourselves and therefore we don't set our own hours and sometimes don't have control over our own clinic schedules either. For example, I don't like that I am supposed to do Q15 minute clinic visits - I would prefer 20 minute visits, but I don't have that option.
 
Agree with this 1000%

I also strongly disagree with the other post above stating, "You can work as much or as little as you want". This is true because part time jobs are pretty hard to come by - if you do fp, med/peds or maybe outpatient internal med, that might be possible. If you do dermatology and can afford to open your own office (not sure the overhead costs and logistics of doing that any more), you can do that. You might be able to do it in endocrinology, rheumatology, a few other fields. It's quite hard to do that in surgery, critical care, cardiology, many other fields, etc. Part of this is because most docs are employed by someone else, and probably more and more will be. We don't work for ourselves and therefore we don't set our own hours and sometimes don't have control over our own clinic schedules either. For example, I don't like that I am supposed to do Q15 minute clinic visits - I would prefer 20 minute visits, but I don't have that option.

Don't forget Psych. But yeah, I get what you're saying.
 
What kind of non-clinical options? I know a resident that left to do a PhD, since he couldn't stand practicing. Other than that, I would say it's pretty rare from what I've seen.

I wonder if Medical Sales Rep is an option? For some reason, I've been getting a ton of emails looking for people with a "medical background" offering 100-200K. I know that one of my former classmates (didn't complete med school) went that route. He's now working for a medical robotics company.
 
Don't forget Psych. But yeah, I get what you're saying.

Agreed. Psych is one of those areas where, if you are business minded enough, can open up a cash practice. Be sure to become invested in an area and network with as many of the therapists in practice in the community as well as PCPs.
 
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