Residents - do NOT believe attendings who tell you non-clinical options are viable

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IonClaws

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Not sure if this is the right forum but need to share personal experiences.

There are some attendings in your residencies who may tell you that non-clinical options are everywhere for physicians who didn't finish residency, that if you're let go it'll all be ok - don't believe them!!

These people have usually NEVER actually been in that position before. Perhaps not even in a position where they quit medicine after finishing residency.

Regardless, it's almost impossible to get ANY medical jobs without finishing residency, even simple ones where you fill out questionaires and don't make any medical decisions. It's THAT bad.

An MD and incomplete residency training don't qualify you for any positions. You might hear this or that anecdote, but that's all it is - anecdotes. Maybe from people who were in the right place at the right time or who had the right connections. However, it largely does not exist. I'm talking in 99%+ of cases.

Finish residency if you can!

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Concur, I would be highly suspect of any attending who said this. I was just at a conference and they had a panel on non-clinical jobs for MDs and while indeed everyone on the panel had interesting jobs, they ended up all being SIDE jobs. Also, everyone there had finished residency.
 
Not sure if this is the right forum but need to share personal experiences.

There are some attendings in your residencies who may tell you that non-clinical options are everywhere for physicians who didn't finish residency, that if you're let go it'll all be ok - don't believe them!!

These people have usually NEVER actually been in that position before. Perhaps not even in a position where they quit medicine after finishing residency.

Regardless, it's almost impossible to get ANY medical jobs without finishing residency, even simple ones where you fill out questionaires and don't make any medical decisions. It's THAT bad.

An MD and incomplete residency training don't qualify you for any positions. You might here this or that anecdote, but that's all it is - anecdotes. Maybe from people who were in the right place at the right time or who had the right connections. However, it largely does not exist. I'm talking in 99%+ of cases.

Finish residency if you can!

I'll even take it a step further.

There really aren't that many appealing non-clinical jobs even if you have finished a residency.

Sure, you could go into Admin, Research, Consulting. But you'll find these jobs are not that easy to find, highly competitive, and the bulk of money in medicine (for doctors) is actually made by practicing clinical/surgical medicine.

Furthermore, it's not always the case that the non-clinical jobs pay better (or if that pay delta is worth the headache). Life can actually be easier sometimes just seeing patients and doing cases (stick to what you do best). An MBA or MPH can't do that.

Word to your mother.
 
I'll even take it a step further.

There really aren't that many appealing non-clinical jobs even if you have finished a residency.

Sure, you could go into Admin, Research, Consulting. But you'll find these jobs are not that easy to find, highly competitive, and the bulk of money in medicine (for doctors) is actually made by practicing clinical/surgical medicine.

Furthermore, it's not always the case that the non-clinical jobs pay better (or if that pay delta is worth the headache). Life can actually be easier sometimes just seeing patients and doing cases (stick to what you do best). An MBA or MPH can't do that.

Word to your mother.

I’ll take it even a step further, and say that there aren’t that many appealing *clinical* jobs, even if you’ve finished a residency.

I’m six years into a career in rheumatology. My first hospital job was a horrible experience (nasty, godawful admin that treated me like garbage and shorted me on RVUs, thus vastly underpaying me) that made me never ever want to be employed by a hospital again. Job #2 basically never happened - it was at a small solo rheumatology PP where I moved across the country only to have the idiot rheumatologist who owned the practice decide she didn’t actually want to hire someone else after I got there. Job #3 was at a corrupt ****show of a multispecialty PP with incompetent leadership, doctors who were drinking and doing drugs while seeing patients, other docs who had apparently groped patients and staff previously, etc. I left after 10 months and the PP imploded shortly thereafter.

It’s only now - 6 years and 4 jobs in - that I’ve found a really good job where I’m paid well, and where I’m happy with how things are going. But the first three jobs were complete trash.
 
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While I agree that not having a residency position makes it difficult to do much with an MD, I work for the Federal government in an HHS job with tons of doctors who are a happy in their non-clinical jobs. Some physicians came from their own practices, some from private practice, some from academic specialty practice and some from residencies. The pay is definitely not going to blow anyone's socks off, but if you're in a lower paying specialty to begin with, it will be equivalent or close. The lifestyle is mostly why docs come I think. There are opportunities available but I agree, a completed residency is needed (although we do hire some foreign unlicensed doctors as well for lower pay and slightly different position role but not sure about whether that applies for local MDs)
 
I’ll take it even a step further, and say that there aren’t that many appealing *clinical* jobs, even if you’ve finished a residency.

I’m six years into a career in rheumatology. My first hospital job was a horrible experience (nasty, godawful admin that treated me like garbage and shorted me on RVUs, thus vastly underpaying me) that made me never ever want to be employed by a hospital again. Job #2 basically never happened - it was at a small solo rheumatology PP where I moved across the country only to have the idiot rheumatologist who owned the practice decide she didn’t actually want to hire someone else after I got there. Job #3 was at a corrupt ****show of a multispecialty PP with incompetent leadership, doctors who were drinking and doing drugs while seeing patients, other docs who had apparently groped patients and staff previously, etc. I left after 10 months and the PP imploded shortly thereafter.

It’s only now - 6 years and 4 jobs in - that I’ve found a really good job where I’m paid well, and where I’m happy. But the first three jobs were complete trash.
It is very common to have to go through at least one job to get to a job that is sustainable. I actually enjoyed my first job in private practice, but the support/referral base wasn't sustainable so I left. I now work in academics and it is great.

My wife's first job was horrible. Showed up day 1 pregnant and employer lied about health coverage. She wasn't eligible for health insurance until 6 months after she started employment. Yes, the employer knew that she was pregnant when she was given this misinformation. We had to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket for COBRA. Very stressful finding out you don't have health insurance while pregnant. We were at the beach the first weekend after moving to the area and she gets called by her boss asking why she wasn't in clinic. She was told that she wouldn't cover weekend clinic for the first two months while getting acclimated. We had to leave the beach and she had to show up to work for a job she just started. Two months roll around and she gets her first paycheck, only to realize that she making 20% less than expect. She wanted to work 0.8 FTE because of the upcoming delivery of baby and that was specified within the contract. The employer took the agreed upon salary (which was straight up garbage...10th percentile), and paid her 80% of that agreed upon amount. She was essentially working at less than 5th percentile...in APRN/PA range.

Within two months we knew that we have to make an escape plan. Then boom, COVID comes around and nobody is hiring. My wife's employer then brings everyone into the office at 6PM on a Friday and tells them that they all would have to sign a new contract (with an additional 20% reduction in pay, as well as other other modifications to non-competes and other items), and return the contract before the business open on Monday or they would be terminated. Very shrewd, as the employer knew that none of the staff would have any other job options because of the hiring freeze and nobody would have the opportunity to contact employment lawyers because they don't typically work over the weekend. Fortunately, we personally knew our contract lawyer and he was willing to make modifications to the proposed contract, which was frustratingly accepted by the employer. My wife took the 20% paycut during COVID, now making less than $100,000/year.

Finally, other employers begin to hire. My wife gets a job paying 50th percentile by her new employer. The following year she is over 90th percentile nationally in RVU. Her pay jumps from under $100,000 to close to $400,000. Think about that for a second. Same work, same city, less headaches, nearly four times the pay.

BUT THAT'S NOT ALL! Within 3 months of my wife working at her next job, she gets served a lawsuit threat by her prior employer stating that she violated her non-compete. My wife worked outside of the 10 mile radius of her prior employer, but the employer stated that he had other offices within that radius. She was told that she had immediately stop working and provide all of the compensation earned while working for the new provider to the prior employer's lawyer so that money can be retrieved. My wife ends up working with our contract lawyer as well as an army of lawyers through her current employer who threatened a counter suit. It wasn't until then that it was finally over.

You won't find a bigger supporter of abolishing non-compete clauses. Nobody in the world has to put up with that type of nonsense. Physicians are TRAPPED into these relationships because of their high loan burdens, and there are times that are is absolutely no way out.
 
I hope we're in shape, because the market was so awful many took to exotic dancing to make ends meet.

I have different plans.

breaking bad deal with it GIF
 
Okay, got off track there, but so off track that I felt the need to comment on the new track. I do agree that non-clinical jobs mostly...suck. However, there ARE great clinical jobs out there in every specialty post residency. We are so fortunate as physicians to have the opportunities we do (after residency). I don't think there is any other field where the employee has as much power to just walk as we do, to say nothing of literally being able to open up your own practice and set the terms entirely. There is a need for physicians pretty much everywhere in pretty much every specialty. If your job sucks, you both need to and CAN get a better one, generally fairly easily. Here's the problem, we were trained, throughout our many, many years of schooling to not particularly advocate for ourselves. That's where the problem is, NOT the job market which has been, is and will remain excellent for physicians (who finished residency). This is in dramatic contrast to lawyers who have a horrible job market pretty much everywhere.
 
Okay, got off track there, but so off track that I felt the need to comment on the new track. I do agree that non-clinical jobs mostly...suck. However, there ARE great clinical jobs out there in every specialty post residency. We are so fortunate as physicians to have the opportunities we do (after residency). I don't think there is any other field where the employee has as much power to just walk as we do, to say nothing of literally being able to open up your own practice and set the terms entirely. There is a need for physicians pretty much everywhere in pretty much every specialty. If your job sucks, you both need to and CAN get a better one, generally fairly easily. Here's the problem, we were trained, throughout our many, many years of schooling to not particularly advocate for ourselves. That's where the problem is, NOT the job market which has been, is and will remain excellent for physicians (who finished residency). This is in dramatic contrast to lawyers who have a horrible job market pretty much everywhere.

Completely agree.

There are a lot of bad medical jobs out there, but there are also absolutely good ones.
 
For the non clinical jobs, I think it comes down to what you can actually offer the employer. It’s a tough sell to offer yourself as a coding and documentation consultant when as a resident you’ve barely done any of that at all. I would have been useless in such a role back then, but now I actually help other docs on the side at my hospital increase their revenue by helping them code better. I do this for free because they’re my friends, but I can tell I’ve actually developed a knowledge base in this area I didn’t have in training.

I suspect there’s a similar thing in other positions. I’ve befriended the medical directors of all the major private insurers where I live and now they occasionally bounce cases/questions off me when there’s something ent-related they don’t understand. No way I could have answered them back in the day, but now it’s more second nature. They’ve offered me consulting positions but that sounds like no fun at all to me.

I have seen some residents lateral into non clinical jobs but the ones I know personally were one who went to work for Epic, another got into pharma sales, and another device sales. In those cases they were trading on their ability to speak the lingo fairly well combined with sales ability. The epic guy had some tech background as well, and was mainly part of their implementation team.

It’s definitely tough though and pay is much less than attending positions overall. You’re probably also competing against experienced attendings looking for a career change. Definitely not easy!

Best bet is definitely clinical work. Lots of crap jobs out there though. I stumbled into a sweet gig which isn’t perfect, but seems to hit the buttons for me and has no noncompete. I was lucky to have good mentors that looked at things with me and helped point out problems I didn’t notice.

If I ever leave this job, the things I’ll ask of future employers will be vastly different than when I was fresh out of training. Before it was all about comp, equipment, space, etc. Now I would ask those things plus specifics of space, OR block assignments, autonomy of scheduling (huge for me - I set my own now and can’t imagine not doing that), how referrals are triaged, etc. I really lucked into a good situation, but there are many things that make my job great I would never have thought to care about as a new grad.
 
Omph, non-competes. Yeah, that needs to be at the top of the list for things to avoid if you want to find a good job since that's going to hinder the process massively. Hopefully the FTC succeeds in banning them.
 
100% agree. When I was an undergrad, I took some public health courses and met a Preventive Medicine resident. When he and his cohort graduated, they all struggled to find non-clinical jobs (there were 3 residents). 2 went back to clinical practice, and I’m not sure what the third ended up doing.

The thing is, there are no well-defined non-clinical jobs. You don’t know where they are located or when they might pop up. And the number on non-clinical jobs that are “high paying” that align with our skill-set is few and far between. Non-medicine/clinical high paying jobs usually require experience and/or advanced degrees in the specific non-clinical area.

One thing you can do to get a sense of the types of jobs, is goggle “Preventive Medicine Residency” and if the program shows their “Alumni/Past Graduates,” Google their names. Many either go back to clinical practice or are doing “odd jobs” that aren’t really connected to medicine, and certainly don’t pay anywhere close to what you’d make as a practicing physician. As one poster mentioned, HHS is probably the best route for something stable (HHS, FDA, CDC, HRSA). You still have to apply to get in and it’s not always easy, but they do offer non-clinical opportunities for physicians. Although there are geographical limitations. Moving to the DC area (where there are the most job opportunities) isn’t possible for everyone.
 
100% agree. When I was an undergrad, I took some public health courses and met a Preventive Medicine resident. When he and his cohort graduated, they all struggled to find non-clinical jobs (there were 3 residents). 2 went back to clinical practice, and I’m not sure what the third ended up doing.

The thing is, there are no well-defined non-clinical jobs. You don’t know where they are located or when they might pop up. And the number on non-clinical jobs that are “high paying” that align with our skill-set is few and far between. Non-medicine/clinical high paying jobs usually require experience and/or advanced degrees in the specific non-clinical area.

One thing you can do to get a sense of the types of jobs, is goggle “Preventive Medicine Residency” and if the program shows their “Alumni/Past Graduates,” Google their names. Many either go back to clinical practice or are doing “odd jobs” that aren’t really connected to medicine, and certainly don’t pay anywhere close to what you’d make as a practicing physician. As one poster mentioned, HHS is probably the best route for something stable (HHS, FDA, CDC, HRSA). You still have to apply to get in and it’s not always easy, but they do offer non-clinical opportunities for physicians. Although there are geographical limitations. Moving to the DC area (where there are the most job opportunities) isn’t possible for everyone.

I somewhat agree with this assessment. Not every Prev Medicine resident wants to go the non-clinical route for whatever reason so it's somewhat self selecting. There are not "set" jobs for a preventive medicine resident and I am honest about that with anyone considering this pathway. There are jobs available if you're willing to be flexible either in your career goals and/or geography. The pay will never be great, but PM is noncompetitive (and sometimes a last ditch option) for a reason. If you can get a job that you enjoy/tolerate, I think the lifestyle is great and you won't starve. And I personally like my job so I guess it worked out for me.
 
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