retaking a pass/no pass class

[physicianguy]

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I am currently taking mammalian physiology for the first session of summer. My problem is that I did not do well on my second midterm which will keep me from getting an A and possibly not even getting a B.

My question is, since it is pass the date to drop the class, can i pass/no pass this class and retake it next summer for a letter grade? Or am i supposed to just withdraw it if I dont think my grade will be good?

 

[cubssox2000]

I am currently taking mammalian physiology for the first session of summer. My problem is that I did not do well on my second midterm which will keep me from getting an A and possibly not even getting a B.

My question is, since it is pass the date to drop the class, can i pass/no pass this class and retake it next summer for a letter grade? Or am i supposed to just withdraw it if I dont think my grade will be good?

If you are applying for MD schools, the AMCAS system does not replace grades, so your Pass in the class would be the grade you get (I think a Pass is considered a C by AMCAS). If that's true, then there is no point in retaking the class (or even moving to P/F) unless you think you won't even pass the class.

If you are applying DO, the AACOMAS will replace a grade. So if you think that you will do better next time, I would not change to P/F, would take the C and then retake for a higher grade.

 

[ReptarBar]

a pass is not a C for amcas...its just a P. doesnt get calculated in your gpa, but schools will know.

 

[cubssox2000]

Thanks for the clarification. I never took a P/F class, so could only guess. In either case, I think that my points are valid. AMCAS will not replace the grade, AACOMAS will, so it depends what the OP plans to apply for.

 

[Kevin Baker]

If you are applying for MD schools, the AMCAS system does not replace grades, so your Pass in the class would be the grade you get (I think a Pass is considered a C by AMCAS). If that's true, then there is no point in retaking the class (or even moving to P/F) unless you think you won't even pass the class.

I'm not an expert, but I am anal, so I just checked my app as I had a credit/no credit class. Granted, that's not the same as pass/fail so take this with a grain of salt, but I just recalculated my overall gpa and they didn't count my credit/no credit into the calculations. So no C 🙂

As for advice, I'm not sure.

 

[Cleavername]

this is interesting, so the timeline for a pass/fail is the same as withdrew? i know withdrew doesn't look pretty, but how does a p/f? look? what if its for a science class?

 

[docelh]

If a Pass were a C, nobody would do P/F ... ever.

 

[ReptarBar]

i would take a P over the W. all that matters really is what you get on the retake...try to get an A.

 

[cubssox2000]

If a Pass were a C, nobody would do P/F ... ever.

Not necessarily. Lots of students take P/F classes because they are interested in the topic but don't want to have to worry about putting in all of the work for the class. Clearly this does not apply to science classes, but for a non-science - Why not? Also, some schools will offer classes that are P/F as one credit as opposed to three for the normal class, so if you wanted to just take something on the side, it would fit pretty well, even as a Pass.

 

[cubssox2000]

I'm not an expert, but I am anal, so I just checked my app as I had a credit/no credit class. Granted, that's not the same as pass/fail so take this with a grain of salt, but I just recalculated my overall gpa and they didn't count my credit/no credit into the calculations. So no C 🙂

As for advice, I'm not sure.

I have admitted that the grade is a no show on AMCAS (although the P is still there as you did take the class, just not factored into the GPA). So the question really is would you rather have a C or a P.

 

[235009]

IMO taking a class P/F and passing is perfectly fine....looks like you took the class out of interest

BUT retaking the class for a grade after taking it P/F looks bad (looks like you were either going to get a horrible grade the first time or are grade-grubbing)

my advice (this seems really obvious and logical to me) is take the class P/F then just move on with your life and take a new science class for a letter grade next year.

 

[mspeedwagon]

👍. The average pre-med at my undergrad takes one class P/F every semester. With 8 semesters, the average pre-med at my undergrad has 8 P/F classes. They definitely do NOT count as Cs on AMCAS. They just are not factored into GPA calculations

The average pre-med student from undergrad ends up at medical school at one of the following places, so they don't do too badly having these P/F classes:
http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Dean_of_the_College/hco/data/

I would definitely not re-take a P/F class for a grade since it makes it clear you actually did poorly in the class. I took molecular biology pass/fail this summer since I wanted to brush up on biology for the MCAT, but didn't think I'd have the time to ace the class.

I have also taken P/F classes that I have gotten As in, but appear as passes on my transcript. It all evens out in the end.

IMO taking a class P/F and passing is perfectly fine....looks like you took the class out of interest

BUT retaking the class for a grade after taking it P/F looks bad (looks like you were either going to get a horrible grade the first time or are grade-grubbing)

my advice (this seems really obvious and logical to me) is take the class P/F then just move on with your life and take a new science class for a letter grade next year.

 

[cubssox2000]

👍. The average pre-med at my undergrad takes one class P/F every semester. With 8 semesters, the average pre-med at my undergrad has 8 P/F classes.

Really? Are you sure about this? I'm not saying whether your right or wrong, but this seems to be an incredibly high number. The average from my undergrad was probably less than 1 per 4 years (although there are approximately 150 applicants from my school per year, so the sample size could be widely different).

 

[mspeedwagon]

Positive. Our school releases all possible stats about medical school applicants. My undegrad also has mandatory pass/fail classes which cannot be taken for a grade (2 of my courses I was forced to take pass/fail).

Let's take a look at my transcript (an n=1 example).
Class taken pass/fail
1) Intro to Engineering (mandotary pass/fail)
2) Calc I (mandotary pass/fail)
3) Calc II (opted to take pass/fail)
4) Orgo I (opted to take pass/fail as I was NOT pre-med in college and this class had a bad reputation. I re-took this after I graduated and received an A- after college).
5) Globilization and Social Conflict (opted to take pass/fail as I thought the class would be interesting... regret taking this class as it was really, really boring and I didn't learn much).
6) Principles of Physiology (opted to take pass/fail. Re-took after graduation and received an A).
7) Animal Behavior (opted to take pass/fail). Took this class out of interest and really enjoyed it. I aced this class.
8) Principles of Neurobiology (opted to take pass/fail as it was required and I heard rumors the professor sucked). The professor sucked, but I aced this course and decided to focus in neuroscience.
9) Intro to Econ (opted to take pass/fail since it was senior year). Aced it since it was a freshman class and pretty easy.

Since I graduated I took one more class pass/fail.
10) Molecular bio. Opted pass/fail since I really just wanted a biology refresher for the MCAT.

NOTE: I was not pre-med during my college years. Had I been I would have opted to take bio classes and orgo for grades. Some schools don't accept pass/fail classes as pre-reqs so I had to spend money to re-take classes like orgo. In retrospect, I should have taken them for a grade as an ungraduate student, but you live and you learn.

Also, about half those classes would have probably been As. Neurobiology, animal behavior, physiology, econ, intro to calc I were all classes that I did well in but now appear just as passes on my transcript. I could really use the GPA boost that this would have given me. On the flip side, I did really poorly (but passed calc II). All of the classes that I re-took were over 5 yrs apart. I would definitely NOT re-take a class the following year since it's obvious you did poorly in it.

Edit: There are about 180 applicants per yr from my undergrad, so it's a similar sample size.

Really? Are you sure about this? I'm not saying whether your right or wrong, but this seems to be an incredibly high number. The average from my undergrad was probably less than 1 per 4 years (although there are approximately 150 applicants from my school per year, so the sample size could be widely different).

 

[cubssox2000]

If your school releases that data, I have no choice but to take your word for it. However, 8 P/F still seems really high to me. You said your school forces you to take 2 P/F, and I have a feeling that this is not a common requirement, and so your school would be the exception, not the rule, and might have a higher rate of P/F classes among applicants. Just because your school has an average 8 P/F per applicant, I think that the national average is quite a bit lower.

NOTE: I was not pre-med during my college years. Had I been I would have opted to take bio classes and orgo for grades. Some schools don't accept pass/fail classes as pre-reqs so I had to spend money to re-take classes like orgo. In retrospect, I should have taken them for a grade as an ungraduate student, but you live and you learn.

I think it safe to say that we both agree on this point 😉. So maybe considering the fact that most students who apply straight from college would not take those courses (e.g. Orgo I, Calc II, phys) for P/F unless forced, this would lower the number still.

EDIT: Also, I agree with your statement about not re-taking a course a year after taking it P/F.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Just to clarify: there are classes at my school that have to be taken pass/fail if you opt to take them (Calc I for example). There is no set number of classes that you are forced to take P/F.

And yes, my school is notorious for having a ton of kids take a lot of pass/fail classes and giving med schools a hard time evaluating such kids. But, there was a famous example of a kid that got into Harvard Medical School with all P/F grades and an official 0.0 AMCAS GPA. He had a lot of other qualifications (45 MCAT, successfully running a company, patenting a medical device and the list goes on and on etc. etc.).

But I agree that the number of P/F classes from my undergrad is higher than the national average.

 

[moxche]

I think a Pass is considered a C by AMCAS

Please please please please be careful when making guesses about these types of things, you're going to give someone a heart attack.

As a side-note: everyone from my school applies with at least 4 Pass/Fail classes. These will usually include some of the pre-reqs (chemistry, physics, biology, calculus, etc). No one from my school has ever said they experienced problems because of it, but then again, I think med schools may know that this is typical for us.

 

[cubssox2000]

Please please please please be careful when making guesses about these types of things, you're going to give someone a heart attack.

As a side-note: everyone from my school applies with at least 4 Pass/Fail classes. These will usually include some of the pre-reqs (chemistry, physics, biology, calculus, etc). No one from my school has ever said they experienced problems because of it, but then again, I think med schools may know that this is typical for us.

Read through the entire thread, and you will see what transpired. There is nothing wrong with guessing, as this is an open forum and lives by consensus of the masses.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Just a word of warning, be careful taking pre-reqs pass/fail. There are schools that will NOT accept pre-reqs pass/fail. I had to re-take organic chemistry after graduation because quite a few schools said that would not accept my "pass" in organic chemistry.

As a side-note: everyone from my school applies with at least 4 Pass/Fail classes. These will usually include some of the pre-reqs (chemistry, physics, biology, calculus, etc). No one from my school has ever said they experienced problems because of it, but then again, I think med schools may know that this is typical for us.

 

[SoFreakedOut]

Unless your school requires a grade for "Mammalian Physiology" for your major, don't retake it. Take the pass/fail and focus your efforts on a 4.0 from your other classes. Medical schools will not care and retaking a pass/fail class indicates that you were doing poorly, barely passed, and feel some sort of obligation to retake it (this is for non-requirement situations, i.e. the person above that had to retake orgo because a grade is required is a different story). Get over the guilt and be glad that p/f exists.

If they ask you about it in an interview give them the best version of the truth that you can. "I had a very busy class schedule that semester but had great interest in the class, to ease the stress I took it pass/fail." No need to mention that you messed up on your first exam and were past the drop deadline.

 

[DoC352]

Ok this is just my personal opinion and I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this (admittedly, adcoms would probably disagree with me on this, too...), but I would NEVER opt to take a class Pass/Fail.

Trying to pass a P/F option as a way to reduce stress is a very hollow argument. If you can't handle the stress of taking Mammalian Physiology for a grade as part of a normal undergraduate course load, how do you expect to handle the stress of medical school?

Also P/F option is very transparent in terms of grades. The only reason a pre-med would honestly choose to take a class P/F is because they are struggling in it - if you started off P/F because you didn't want to deal with the stress but then ended up doing well you would likely opt back to a letter grade.

Taking a class for a letter grade and taking the low grade shows maturity and responsibility. Nobody is perfect, but trying to cover up your academic mistakes with a pass/fail option makes you look like somebody who isn't willing to take responsibility for their actions.

but like I said, that's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt...

 

[mspeedwagon]

Work full-time, part-time, travel for work and maintain a long distance relationship and then tell me there is no situation in which you would take a class pass/fail and I'll agree with you. This is the reason I took molecular biology pass/fail this summer.

You are also making a lot of assumptions that aren't true. For example, at Brown you had to decide in the first 3 weeks of a course whether to take it pass/fail and even if you are doing well, once you have opted to take it pass/fail you cannot go back. I opted to take a few classes pass/fail that I aced (see discussion above).

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I think there are few that would say that this is the best strategy for every one.

Ok this is just my personal opinion and I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this (admittedly, adcoms would probably disagree with me on this, too...), but I would NEVER opt to take a class Pass/Fail.

Trying to pass a P/F option as a way to reduce stress is a very hollow argument. If you can't handle the stress of taking Mammalian Physiology for a grade as part of a normal undergraduate course load, how do you expect to handle the stress of medical school?

Also P/F option is very transparent in terms of grades. The only reason a pre-med would honestly choose to take a class P/F is because they are struggling in it - if you started off P/F because you didn't want to deal with the stress but then ended up doing well you would likely opt back to a letter grade.

 

[ReptarBar]

the reason i have one class "passed" is because 1) the class was 75% essays (50% final paper) and 25% participation, 2) the teacher was never around...always guest lecturers, 3) the subject matter was stupid.

i had no idea what my grade would be...why would i risk everything on this class?

 

[student1799]

Ok this is just my personal opinion and I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this (admittedly, adcoms would probably disagree with me on this, too...), but I would NEVER opt to take a class Pass/Fail.

If "adcoms would disagree with you," then you're giving the OP terrible advice. Period.
OP, you'd be out of your mind to do this. Take the P and be grateful you have that option, because you need to protect your GPA. That is WAY more important than the misguided martyr complex DoC352 wants to give you.

Trust me, I know. I went to college 25 years ago, but I didn't take the prereqs at the time. I had a rocky time in college due to family issues and ended up with a fair # of P/Fs on my transcript. I took the prereqs in a postbacc program and applied in '08, got numerous interviews and was admitted to 2 schools, and no one EVER said a word to me about the P/F grades. (My GPA was OK, not super-high.)

However,I would agree with other posters that you should NOT retake the class for a grade, because it looks bad. Take something else and get an A.

 

[Cleavername]

Just to clarify: there are classes at my school that have to be taken pass/fail if you opt to take them (Calc I for example). There is no set number of classes that you are forced to take P/F.

And yes, my school is notorious for having a ton of kids take a lot of pass/fail classes and giving med schools a hard time evaluating such kids. But, there was a famous example of a kid that got into Harvard Medical School with all P/F grades and an official 0.0 AMCAS GPA. He had a lot of other qualifications (45 MCAT, successfully running a company, patenting a medical device and the list goes on and on etc. etc.).

But I agree that the number of P/F classes from my undergrad is higher than the national average.

hahahahahahha omg. i actually laughed out loud in my appartment as i read this. great post dude. i wanna meet this guy lol.