Rethinking the Horse Slaughter Ban - WSJ article+

[Angelus9]

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Just in time for interview current event subjects!

"The slaughterhouses disposed of the thousands of horses abandoned or relinquished each year by owners who find them too old or temperamental to be useful or who simply can no longer afford to care for them. Now, many of those horses are sold for $10 or $20 at low-end auctions and packed on crowded transports to be slaughtered in Mexico. Animal-welfare experts say the horses often suffer greatly on the journey."

Passed on from Sportsmen's & Animal Owners' Voting Alliance:

Wall Street Journal Online. U.S. News January 5, 2011 by Stephanie Simon

Though horse lovers cheered when the last slaughterhouses were shuttered,
some now say they may not have thought through the consequences.

Less than four years after the last equine slaughterhouses in the U.S.
closed down, an unlikely coalition of ranchers, horse owners and animal-welfare groups is trying to bring them back.

The group, gathering in Las Vegas this week for a conference called Summit
of the Horse, aims to map out a strategy for reviving an industry that
slaughtered as many as 100,000 horses a year in the U.S. before it was
effectively shut down by congressional action in 2007.

Advocates say the slaughterhouses could bring an economic boost to rural
areas and give owners who no longer have the means or inclination to care
for the horses an economical and humane way to dispose of them.

"We believe that humane processing is absolutely a moral and an ethical
choice," said Sue Wallis, a Wyoming state lawmaker who organized the event.
Story at link http://tinyurl.com/2esxgy2

 

[bbeventer]

I read that article too. They did get some of there facts wrong though, I don't recall a single "horse lover" in my area cheering when the ban got passed.

Defiantly will make for some good discussions in interviews!

 

[welelu]

I would have to agree with bbeventer, as an avid horse enthusiast and owner of my own horse I was very much against anti-slaughter legislation as it was going through congress in 2007. Now, in 2010-11 I volunteer with the United States Equine Rescue League and the number of abuse and neglect cases has skyrocketed. People who once had a moderately humane way of putting down horses they no longer wanter or could afford (as much as the horse lover in me cringed), now just leave the animals in mud and feces to starve to death or worse. The legislation was poorly thought out. Instead what should have been passed, in my opinion, were regulations that improved the conditions and care these horses received, mandated veterinary care, etc. and increased taxes on export out of the US. Now we have our animals that DO go to slaughter traveling hundreds of miles in poor conditions to slaughterhouses where we have no idea how they kill them. That is scary.

 

[Angelus9]

I think it came up on here a few years ago and there were indeed a number of pre-vets who rejoiced in the slaughter ban. Yeah, I agree - they just didn't get it.

 

[luvmyleaguer]

I would have to agree with bbeventer, as an avid horse enthusiast and owner of my own horse I was very much against anti-slaughter legislation as it was going through congress in 2007. Now, in 2010-11 I volunteer with the United States Equine Rescue League and the number of abuse and neglect cases has skyrocketed. People who once had a moderately humane way of putting down horses they no longer wanter or could afford (as much as the horse lover in me cringed), now just leave the animals in mud and feces to starve to death or worse. The legislation was poorly thought out. Instead what should have been passed, in my opinion, were regulations that improved the conditions and care these horses received, mandated veterinary care, etc. and increased taxes on export out of the US. Now we have our animals that DO go to slaughter traveling hundreds of miles in poor conditions to slaughterhouses where we have no idea how they kill them. That is scary.

I agree 100%. Slaughter is completely necessary, however, the way the horses are killed MUST be improved. Now the horses go to Mexico where it is 100 times worse than it was in the US.

 

[katryn]

I'm very glad to see work on repealing this bill. It made me face palm when it first got passed and I'm not even a horse person really. Humane slaughter in the LA world is in principles no different than humane euthanasia in the SA world.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

I would have to agree with bbeventer, as an avid horse enthusiast and owner of my own horse I was very much against anti-slaughter legislation as it was going through congress in 2007. Now, in 2010-11 I volunteer with the United States Equine Rescue League and the number of abuse and neglect cases has skyrocketed. People who once had a moderately humane way of putting down horses they no longer wanter or could afford (as much as the horse lover in me cringed), now just leave the animals in mud and feces to starve to death or worse. The legislation was poorly thought out. Instead what should have been passed, in my opinion, were regulations that improved the conditions and care these horses received, mandated veterinary care, etc. and increased taxes on export out of the US. Now we have our animals that DO go to slaughter traveling hundreds of miles in poor conditions to slaughterhouses where we have no idea how they kill them. That is scary.

It's never been "somewhat" humane, it's only way more inhumane now.

I think outlawing slaughter was a step in the right direction- the real problem is irresponsible people- irresponsible breeders, back yard breeders, and people who want a quick way to get rid of a horse they don't want anymore.

I have no problem with a horse being shot in the brain as a method of euthanasia- in fact, that's what the equine vet I work with reccommends if her clients can't afford euthanasia. It's just when you slaughter 500 horses a day, there's no efficient way to slaughter/ship them that's humane.

Ways to fix the SURPLUS of horses:

1.) STOP BREEDING, DAMMIT!! (now, there is TOTALLY a market for well bred, well trained horses. What there is NOT a market for (and never was, outside of the slaughterhouse) is poorly bred (Hypp, Herda, bad conformation) untrained, or ungelded horses) Stop breeding these horses! And I'm ashamed to say, even a vet school does it-Iowa breeds HYPP+ horses! WTF?

2.) Cheap gelding clinics

3.) Euthanasia clinics- in addition to this, there are renderers that you can bring your horse to who will shoot your horse for you while he eats from a bucket of grain. Then he will render the body for dog food/whatever. There are also places that raise cats/wolves that take your horse, shoot it, and feed it to their animals. What makes these acceptable ways of euthanasia is that they are HUMANE and that they don't do it on a large scale for profit.

The REAL problem is lazy people, people who have a problem with death, and irresponsible breeding.

And yes, the problem will get worse before it gets better. The bottom is dropping out of the horse market, and that is good- maybe back yard breeders will realize they can't make a profit pumping out the babies. I don't care that my horse is worth less now!

As you can see, I've discussed this alot.

End rant.

 

[roughleggedhawk]

👍👍👍, Mohorsegirl. (Do I sense a fellow reader of Fugly's blog?) To me, slaughter seems to be a backwards way of "solving" the overpopulation problem.

 

[Ben and Me]

I have no problem with a horse being shot in the brain as a method of euthanasia- in fact, that's what the equine vet I work with reccommends if her clients can't afford euthanasia

It isn't necessarily the cost of euthanasia that is cost prohibitive -- the cost for burial/removal of the body afterwards can be even more expensive. Not all folks (especially in rural areas) have access to a nearby rendering plant or big cat sanctuary/foxhound kennel.

It is a real pickle.

It can also be dangerous, as some folks' solution is to dump a live horse on the side of a highway. If a deer can total a car and kill a driver, imagine what a 1200 pound horse could do.

Check out the Unwanted Horse Coalition -- they've been sponsoring gelding clinics around the country, most recently at the Kentucky Horse Park.

There was also (in the last year) a euthanasia clinic held out in California.

It isn't just backyard breeders, either. Think about the number of racehorses bred every year vs. those who actually make it onto the track. Where do all those horses go? Food for thought.

If you do get asked about this, you want to be able to speak about it in an educated manner and at least show that you've spent some time thinking about it. I'd say that this is an important issue for anyone who checked the "Equine" box on their application -- I was asked about it 2 years ago in one of my interviews. 🙂

A good source for "hot topics" like this is The Horse -- you can register for free online and have access to all of their articles. They also have weekly newsletters (including a Horse Welfare newsletter) you can sign up for, which have excerpts from and links to recent articles.

 

[bbeventer]

It's never been "somewhat" humane, it's only way more inhumane now.

I think outlawing slaughter was a step in the right direction- the real problem is irresponsible people- irresponsible breeders, back yard breeders, and people who want a quick way to get rid of a horse they don't want anymore.

I have no problem with a horse being shot in the brain as a method of euthanasia- in fact, that's what the equine vet I work with reccommends if her clients can't afford euthanasia. It's just when you slaughter 500 horses a day, there's no efficient way to slaughter/ship them that's humane.

Ways to fix the SURPLUS of horses:

1.) STOP BREEDING, DAMMIT!! (now, there is TOTALLY a market for well bred, well trained horses. What there is NOT a market for (and never was, outside of the slaughterhouse) is poorly bred (Hypp, Herda, bad conformation) untrained, or ungelded horses) Stop breeding these horses! And I'm ashamed to say, even a vet school does it-Iowa breeds HYPP+ horses! WTF?

2.) Cheap gelding clinics

3.) Euthanasia clinics- in addition to this, there are renderers that you can bring your horse to who will shoot your horse for you while he eats from a bucket of grain. Then he will render the body for dog food/whatever. There are also places that raise cats/wolves that take your horse, shoot it, and feed it to their animals. What makes these acceptable ways of euthanasia is that they are HUMANE and that they don't do it on a large scale for profit.

The REAL problem is lazy people, people who have a problem with death, and irresponsible breeding.

And yes, the problem will get worse before it gets better. The bottom is dropping out of the horse market, and that is good- maybe back yard breeders will realize they can't make a profit pumping out the babies. I don't care that my horse is worth less now!

As you can see, I've discussed this alot.

End rant.

1) There will always be horse breeders. I don't think anyone in the horse community would appreciate a law that restricts their own personal use of their horse. This issue is similar to the cat/dog over population horses will always be in a surplus to the people willing to take care of them. To act like this is not the case I believe would be ignoring a huge piece of the problem.

2) Gelding horses does not have the same effect on population as it does with cats and dogs. This is because horses of opposite sex are rarely ever "let loose" in a pasture together to just hang out. The breedings that take place in the equine world are purposeful (though sometimes misguided).

3) Is not a bad idea, however, most horse meat is sold for human consumption in Europe. This would be an interesting idea if the logistics can be more developed.

In the perfect world we would not need slaughter. I would much rather have these horses bought, sold, and slaughtered locally where we can regulate the treatment of these animals in the US then have them sold and shipped thousands of miles to Mexico and Canada where they are on cramped trailers with no food or water.

Also another wrench in the problem, opening slaughter houses again would create jobs.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

It isn't necessarily the cost of euthanasia that is cost prohibitive -- the cost for burial/removal of the body afterwards can be even more expensive. Not all folks (especially in rural areas) have access to a nearby rendering plant or big cat sanctuary/foxhound kennel.

It is a real pickle.

It can also be dangerous, as some folks' solution is to dump a live horse on the side of a highway. If a deer can total a car and kill a driver, imagine what a 1200 pound horse could do.

Check out the Unwanted Horse Coalition -- they've been sponsoring gelding clinics around the country, most recently at the Kentucky Horse Park.

The "unwanted horse coalition" is just a cover for pro-slaughter people. Namely, breed registrations like AQHA that make a lot of money off of registering thousands of babies... who cares if the babies are so f***ed up they break down by age 4, they will make their money! A lot of the horses that go to slaughter would definitely be "wanted" by someone, the best word for it is "surplus" of horses. For a good idea of what comes through the auction, look at www.auctionhorses.proboards.com . This month there was a mare who had a few babies in the 10K-35K range that ended up in the kill pen- you can't tell me her old owner didn't have the money, trailer, whatever- pure laziness, get the last dollar out of their old broodmare.

Yeah, I know getting rid of the body is the big issue. However, if anyone put ANY thought into responsibly disposing of their horse there are always options. So many excuses (I don't have a trailer, I don't have the money, I don't have the time, I'm pregnant, I have kids, blah blah blah) can be overcome with a little networking and EFFORT. And there is NO way that I am advocating releasing horses you can't care for, that is NOT responsible!

Yes, the race horse industry is a large part of the problem- however, if the trainers put a little time/thought into starting a second career for their horses, it is NOT that hard to rehome a tbred, if you give them a detox/retraining period. There are actually many trainers that DO that, and make some cash on the side. And if they are not rehoming material, the responsible thing to do is to shoot them rather than let them die with their throat slit hanging by a back leg or stabbed in the spine in Mexico. Again, it is irresponsible people that is the problem.

And the huge issue, in my eyes, is how tainted the horse meat from the US is. We give our horses bute, ace, lasix (huge in racehorses), wormer, furazone, many things that ARE POISONOUS TO HUMANS. (http://www.vetsforequinewelfare.org/prohibited-drugs.php)

Yes, there can be waiting pens where the horses wait a few months to be slaughtered, but that doesn't work for some drugs in the horse's system, and also, that totally defies the statement that slaughter is a humane form of euthanasia. If you have a chronically lame horse, how is standing in a pen with hundreds of other horses for months without pain treatment humane? Or a horse with a broken bone? Strangles? Any contagious disease that would spread quickly throughout the lot?

 

[Mohorsegirl]

"1) There will always be horse breeders. I don't think anyone in the horse community would appreciate a law that restricts their own personal use of their horse. This issue is similar to the cat/dog over population horses will always be in a surplus to the people willing to take care of them. To act like this is not the case I believe would be ignoring a huge piece of the problem."

Like I said, there is ALWAYS a market for well bred, genetic disease free horses that are TRAINED. I have placed horses for over the $1,000 limit in the last year, but they were well bred and well trained. I have even placed less well bred horses that were trained. The market is there. I have no problem with responsible breeding, I own horses too!

"2) Gelding horses does not have the same effect on population as it does with cats and dogs. This is because horses of opposite sex are rarely ever "let loose" in a pasture together to just hang out. The breedings that take place in the equine world are purposeful (though sometimes misguided). "

You don't live where I live 🙂 People have no clue a 1-2 yr old colt will breed his mother and sisters. "Oh, I didn't think he'd breed his mom!" And other people let studs run with their mares, clueless that there is no market for fugly babies. "Oh we sell the babies every year at auction to great homes." Yeah, great homes that end with being hung on a hook. Then there's the "Oh, I don't want him to lose his testicles if I don't have to lose mine" people that don't realize (I guess) that a stud will climb/ tear down a fence to get to mares.

In other words, thousands of horses are "oops" babies! Or, "I don't care" babies.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

👍👍👍, Mohorsegirl. (Do I sense a fellow reader of Fugly's blog?) To me, slaughter seems to be a backwards way of "solving" the overpopulation problem.

Yes, I love fugly. 😉 I like her down to earth, have a solution for everything mentality. No "But they're pretty, you can't eat them"!

 

[Ben and Me]

The "unwanted horse coalition" is just a cover for pro-slaughter people.

I am interested to know where you got this information from -- I'm not disputing it, just interested.

You may want to be careful stating opinions like that during interviews (unless, of course, you can back them up with hard evidence -- not "facts" you've read on message boards or blogs), as the current head of the UHC used to be the president of the AAEP, and the horse world can be awfully small when it comes down to it.

http://www.unwantedhorsecoalition.org/?id=5&s=4&story=75

They may very well be pro-slaughter -- I have no idea -- but it does seem to me that they are also offering some non-slaughter options to at least alleviate the problem.

🙂

 

[Mohorsegirl]

I am interested to know where you got this information from -- I'm not disputing it, just interested.

You may want to be careful stating opinions like that during interviews (unless, of course, you can back them up with hard evidence -- not "facts" you've read on message boards or blogs), as the current head of the UHC used to be the president of the AAEP, and the horse world can be awfully small when it comes down to it.

http://www.unwantedhorsecoalition.org/?id=5&s=4&story=75

They may very well be pro-slaughter -- I have no idea -- but it does seem to me that they are also offering some non-slaughter options to at least alleviate the problem.

🙂

Well, it's a fact that the AVMA is pro-slaughter, so I wouldn't doubt that about the AAEP and the UHC president.

I'll have to look up where I got that fact.

 

[Ben and Me]

Here is the AAEP's stance:

The AAEP believes that horse processing is not the ideal solution for addressing the large number of unwanted horses in the U.S. However, if a horse owner is unable or unwilling to provide humane care and no one is able to assume the responsibility, euthanasia at a processing facility in a manner designated as humane by the American Veterinary Medical Association is an acceptable alternative to a life of suffering, inadequate care or abandonment.

And a link to the whole position paper:

http://www.aaep.org/position_HR503_S727.htm

And a postion paper on a similar topic:

http://www.aaep.org/Transportation_Processing_of_Horses_Position.htm

Let me know if the links don't work -- there are member-only sections of the website, but I think these are both in the public domain.

So yep, sounds like the AAEP is pro-(humane)-slaughter, but only because there aren't any other feasible solutions currently.

Too bad you can't mandate common sense and compassion...

If you can state AAEP positions in your interview, you'll totally sound like a bad ass. 😉 If there are holes in your argument though (IE info gleaned from fugly), be prepared to have them questioned. As long as you're prepared to back them up with evidence from AAEP or AVMA positions, you should be fine!

You don't have to agree with either organization in your interview, but be respectful and knowledgeable about why you don't agree. 🙂

 

[Mohorsegirl]

"Too bad you can't mandate common sense and compassion..."

Same thing for having children...

 

[katryn]

Wow, you guys actually have me really interested and feeling kind of stupid. (I'm not a horse person ) When the ban first went up I gleaned that slaughter was the horse worlds version of small animal's euthanasia, but it sounds like there's more too it than that. Is the bad part about slaughter plants the method of slaughering, transportation methods, or something more than that? Obviously it would be great to not need slaughter plants at all, but is there some other solution that the horse world would rather see for population control? You all have mention gelding clinics, is it not done to spay mares as well? (sorry if I'm being an idiot here, but I really don't have much exposure to horse medicine and I'm getting curious.....)

 

[Mohorsegirl]

Wow, you guys actually have me really interested and feeling kind of stupid. (I'm not a horse person ) When the ban first went up I gleaned that slaughter was the horse worlds version of small animal's euthanasia, but it sounds like there's more too it than that. Is the bad part about slaughter plants the method of slaughering, transportation methods, or something more than that? Obviously it would be great to not need slaughter plants at all, but is there some other solution that the horse world would rather see for population control? You all have mention gelding clinics, is it not done to spay mares as well? (sorry if I'm being an idiot here, but I really don't have much exposure to horse medicine and I'm getting curious.....)

Spaying mares is upwards of $1000 and is serious surgery which takes a couple days in the hospital. Castrations are cheap and quick, and that's why it's not common to spay a mare.

Yes, horses are not like cattle at all, in the fact that they scramble, panic, and will hurt themselves to the point of breaking legs in the frenzy to get away from a fearful thing. The transportation is horrible; they are packed on double decker trucks meant for cattle. Horses are on average much taller than cattle, their legs easily fit through the openings on the sides of the truck, and if you've never seen a group of horses packed close together (fighting, kicking) then I can't explain it to you. They also used to ship stallions too (now they are only allow to ship them if they are gelded-even if it happened just an hour ago. Way too early to have the hormones out of their system) and that is a blood fest. Stallions go after other stallions, geldings, breed mares...

The method of slaughter was not humane, either. Horses thrash and it's really hard to hit a moving target (their head) with a gun or captive bolt, so a lot of the time it misses and only partially stuns them. Then they are butchered alive. Now, I think a gun is a perfectly acceptable form of euthanasia, if the horse is calm. I recommend that to people who can't afford barbituate overdose. The other form of slaughter, cutting the carotid artery and letting them exanguinate while hanging from a back leg, I do NOT think is acceptable- horses are MUCH more fragile than cattle, break legs, whip their heads around, etc. This is a PAINFUL way to die, and it takes 30 seconds-2minutes for unconsciousness.

Now, here is a part you may not want to read: it is more inhumane now because in Mexico (where horses go to be slaughtered along with Canada now that it's illegal in the US) the horse is loaded into stocks and their spine is stabbed until the spinal nerve is severed, rendering the horse paralized. However, this only paralyzes them, it doesn't kill them- then they are bled and butchered alive.

If you can bare to watch, here is a documentary of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3YrZVKAcvc&has_verified=1

The actual slaughter is a little ways in.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

Katryn - totally understandable you wouldn't know what's going on if you're not plugged into the horse world 🙂 Its kind of a whole different perspective when you start dealing with pets that weigh 1100 lbs!

Until a few years back sending horses through auctions and to slaughter was an available route to "dispose" of them. This is however a very touchy subject because horses straddle that line between being both a pet and livestock. Some people see them as companions, some people see them as a tool, some people see them as a means of living. Unfortunately, its hard to get any one group to see it any other way that how they already do 🙂

The problem with slaughter in the past is it was based primarily on methods for slaughtering cattle. They are considered humane for cattle, but for horses they led to more stress and trauma at the time of death than we would see for other species treated the same way. Horses may try and avoid the captive bolt leading them to being shot more than once, they were often crowded and housed inappropriately, etc etc. It was not, and still is not a humane end for horses to meet. The transport was at least as bad, if not worse.

Unfortunately, it was the only outlet some people had. There's a huge problem with backyard breeders who turn Stallion A (a horse who "looks pretty" but hasn't done jack squat) out with their band of 5 to 10 similar mares and then produce over and over and over until you have a hard of so many horses you can't appropriately care for them. I think many people who get into that sort of business expect to be able to sell the babies easily, but even at the best of times backyard babies don't really go anywhere except to auction. At auction they would frequently sell to "meat men" who would essentially just buy them to slaughter them. This is really the market that has created the biggest problem in the horse world.

Unfortunately, it is NOT as simple as just gelding more stallions. Those who participate in BYBing think they have a marketable product, even when they don't and will continue to breed despite having access to low cost gelding clinics. And unlike dogs and cats there's not the same problem of a random stray horse running around and breeding mares 🙂 However, gelding clinics DO make it easier for those who may have come upon hard times to do the responsible thing for their own horse!

Spaying a mare is almost never done in the equine world. Besides the fact that it is significantly more expensive and more complicated (think about trying to lay a mare down to remove her uterus!), it is also significantly more risky. Anytime you put a horse under general anesthesia you risk potential complications that may lead to colic, broken limbs, etc so you avoid it like the plague. Most horses that need to undergo anesthesia for routine procedures are put under what's referred to as standing anesthesia - typically drug induced where they do not lie down and are treated quickly to beat the clock so to speak. This reduces the possibility of further complications. Most horses have their teeth floated, have wounds stitched, and may even be gelded in this way.

Euthanasia is preferable, especially for older horses who have been pets for a long time. But it IS expensive, and it IS difficult to dispose of the body so for people who may have fallen on hard times or may have limited income it may not be an option.

Personally, I was not AGAINST horse slaughter because I helped rehab horses for a good number of years and saw it all. Most were WONDERFUL, and went to new homes. However, quite a few were bat s*** crazy and should not have been handled by anyone who wasn't a professional. They were dangerous and NEEDED to be put down for everyone's safety. And some were incredibly lame to the point of being crippled (one QH mare was 4 years old and I would have put her down because she couldn't even STAND comfortably).

My biggest problem with the ban was that there were no provisions for those horses who WERE going to be slaughtered. There was this smug reaction of "Oh, the market will correct itself", but no one bothered to think about what would happen while the market DID correct itself. How were those horses going to be taken care of in the interem? More importantly, no one figured out a way to MAKE SURE the market corrected itself or give those people with NO OTHER OPTION a way OUT. They just sort of snubbed them as irresponsible, and then castigated them for being neglectful when (suprise!) they were unable to fulfill their obligations. Keep in mind, over 30,000 horses a year were going through slaughter houses at the time. That was 30,000 horses a year that were unwanted, and suddenly needed food, housing and care. Ouch!

My interest is not in whether slaughter is right or wrong. My interest is in the health and safety of the animals. SOME breed organizations are taking a step in the right direction (JC has the checkoff program), but ultimately we are still woefully short of our duties to both make sure the animals are appropriately cared for. If slaughter methods were made more humane for horses I would have no problem with them reopening facilities. Imho it is always kinder to have a swift death than slow misery due to pain or neglect.

 

[eventualeventer]

Just so we are clear, the AVMA does NOT condone exsanguination of a conscious animal as a means of euthanasia, and the AAEP's position (per the links above) is that these unwanted horses should be

Euthanized in a humane manner in accordance with the guidelines established by the American Veterinary Medical Association.

Tobysgirl, I agree with your post almost 100%. The only nit I would pick is that inducing general anesthesia and recovering a horse from the same in the field IS done safely and efficiently by many practitioners, and is preferred by many for castration as being safer for the vet (especially in ill-trained or excitable horses) and also allowing for better visualization, exposure, etc. As an example, the RAVS people have castrated thousands of horses and donkeys under injectable general anesthesia with only a handful of complications.

However, this is only appropriate for short, relatively non-invasive procedures; as you implied, there is no such thing as just slapping on a pair of sterile gloves and spaying a mare, as with castration. In mares with behavior problems or ovarian tumors, oopherectomy is commonly done laparoscopically through a flank incision or even per vagina, requiring special equipment and training beyond what most equine vets have. I have never seen a horse who had an open spay done, but a mare who comes in for a c-section where the foal doesn't survive is usually hospitalized for several days, on fluids, etc., with a total bill of several thousand dollars.

Mohorsegirl, you sound like you are arguing against yourself in talking about how inhumane transport is. What do you suggest, realistically, be done about the horses which we know are now being transported many hours to foreign countries so they can be slaughtered in places where we have no oversight? It will take a long time for any other solutions to the unwanted horse problem to have any effect, if they do at all (a lot of these things can't be legislated and a lot of people can't be convinced to listen to their vet about health issues, let alone moral ones), and in the mean time as you yourself admitted we have INCREASED their suffering by banning slaughter within the U.S.

 

[katryn]

Thank you guys for the replies. This issue makes much more sense to me now. It definitely sounds like at the very least, bringing transportation and slaughter methods up to a level that doesn't stress the horses as much is more called for than banning slaughter all together(with no alternative provided).

 

[Mohorsegirl]

"Mohorsegirl, you sound like you are arguing against yourself in talking about how inhumane transport is. What do you suggest, realistically, be done about the horses which we know are now being transported many hours to foreign countries so they can be slaughtered in places where we have no oversight? It will take a long time for any other solutions to the unwanted horse problem to have any effect, if they do at all (a lot of these things can't be legislated and a lot of people can't be convinced to listen to their vet about health issues, let alone moral ones), and in the mean time as you yourself admitted we have INCREASED their suffering by banning slaughter within the U.S."

My answer, like I said above, would be to have many local "slaughterhouses" (as in, one per zipcode, more in horsey areas, less in urban areas) that would be one or two people putting horses down by bullet, no more than maybe ten a day. The horse would be lead to a bucket with some grain in it so they would lower their head and be much easier to shoot calmly munching grain than thrashing in a box. A big part of this plan is A.) mandating that the slaughterhouse can't pay people for their horses (no money in overproduction, just an easy way to "dispose" of horses-here's how you fix the market) and B.) Outlaw transport of horses out of the country for slaughter (yes, this may be tough to enforce... in effect, it would simply greatly reduce the number of horses being exported) This smaller operation would be infinitely less stressful on the horse. Then the horse could be bled and gutted and THEN shipped to a processing facility who would be allowed to pay for the carcass.

****For the few horses that aren't halter broke, there can be a chute where a horse can be unloaded that leads to a trough with some grain... then same as above

*Also will help unemployment

However, this solution still doesn't answer the problem of contaminates in the meat, and I don't know what kind of solution WILL answer that problem- people can always lie about what medications they've given a horse.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

Oh, I guess I didn't make that clear above... sorry. I'm just super sick of people around here (where I live) dumping horses at auctions (this has happened to some well broke, amazing horse at my stable- went lame for a little while and ended up dumped at the auction without a scrap of paper to name them and ran through the auction without even a halter like they're wild- they didn't even have a chance at a good home since no information was left with them...) and even trying to dump them on me, dumping them in other people's fields, and dumping them on craigslist for free when they don't want to take care of them anymore. I don't know what kind of world they live in where it's ok to dump your problems on someone else rather than dealing with them yourself.

Come on, what are some of you guys' solutions to this problem? What do you do about the chemicals in horse meat?

 

[Niri]

Come on, what are some of you guys' solutions to this problem? What do you do about the chemicals in horse meat?

Well it certainly would be interesting to investigate residue periods for drugs, so to have a better idea for withdrawal times. Unfortunately, I am not sure if there would be incentive for companies to do that sort of research on their products unless there was more of a possibility that horses would be used for human consumption in a strong market (as in one involving the US versus Mexico). Especially if some of the products were to have prohibitively long residue periods.

I would like to see breed organizations take some steps to prevent overbreeding, but I don't know exactly what they could do seeing as I'm only kind of a horse person.

 

[Angelus9]

Here's another article:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/01/10/f...nded-consequences-of-banning-horse-slaughter/

Excerpts:
The wealthy Humane Society of the (HSUS) led the push to shutter the industry four years ago.

. And there's lots to talk about. Tens of thousands of horses are starving at any given time in the United States. And many U.S. horses are still slaughtered for food, but now (thanks to HSUS) they're trucked great distances to Canada and Mexico.

In 2000, virtually no horses were exported from the U.S. to Mexico for slaughter. Last year 50,000 made thetrip. American humane slaughter regulations carry no weight South of the Border, so activists trying to save horses from what they considered a cruel death may have guaranteed them something far worse.

And for every American horse that sees a Mexican kill floor, another like it is left to fend for itself, often dying slowly from starvation. In the current economy, some horse owners are left without options. They used to be able to sell their animals for slaughter, but no more. Some can't afford the $500 it typically costs to hire a veterinarian to euthanize and dispose of a single horse. Instead, many just "shoot, shovel, and shut up."

Talk about unintended consequences. Unintended, but not unforeseeable.

The American Veterinary Medical Association figured out years ago what would happen in the wake of a horse-slaughter ban. So did many state-level Veterinary Medical Associations. But the Humane Society of the United States out-lobbied them.

To HSUS, PETA, and other groups like them, horses are pets, not food. They're also lucrative pawns, playing second fiddle only to dogs and cats in terms of fundraising effectiveness.
So if you're HSUS, and you've caused incalculable suffering to tens of thousands of horses, what do you do about it?

You "rescue" one of your own casualties. And then cynically use the animal to raise even more money.
HSUS collected $1.2 million during its recent holiday donation drive. Part of that campaign focused on an "Animal Survivor" story of a horse named Second Chance. "This is Second Chance," HSUS's website intoned. "He survived."

 

[Whyevernot55]

A huge part of the slaughter issue, and the unwanted horse issue, is that horses are NOT viewed as meat animals by most of the US population - we see them as pets, riding horses, maybe work horses, but since consumption of horse meat in this country is virtually nonexistant, there is a sense of outrage against slaughter. Just like there is about eating cat or dog meat.

Unfortunately this does absolutely nothing to incentivize people actually being responsible for the horses they own and breed. Plenty of horses would suffer less from humane euthanasia, but many owners aren't willing to do it - they feel like they should be able to sell the horse, or dump it at an auction, instead of paying $500 for euth and body disposal. Or they simply abandon the horse at whatever facility it's at. Worse yet, some people simply leave the horse in a field to starve. I have even seen people turn horses loose.
While many of them could probably be rehabbed and adopted to homes, there are just too many horses and not enough homes. Humane euthanasia is far kinder than leaving them to an unknown fate, let alone shipping them to facilities across the border with no regulations on slaughter.

 

[rugbychick16]

This is a link to AVMA's official FAQ on horse slaughter. Whether or not you 100% agree with everything they say, it's a great resource-something every veterinary student should understand and something pre-vets should expect as an interview question

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/unwanted_horses_faq.asp

 

[Tobysgirl81]

Oh, I guess I didn't make that clear above... sorry. I'm just super sick of people around here (where I live) dumping horses at auctions (this has happened to some well broke, amazing horse at my stable- went lame for a little while and ended up dumped at the auction without a scrap of paper to name them and ran through the auction without even a halter like they're wild- they didn't even have a chance at a good home since no information was left with them...) and even trying to dump them on me, dumping them in other people's fields, and dumping them on craigslist for free when they don't want to take care of them anymore. I don't know what kind of world they live in where it's ok to dump your problems on someone else rather than dealing with them yourself.

Come on, what are some of you guys' solutions to this problem? What do you do about the chemicals in horse meat?

I totally sympathize about the well broke horses ending up in auction. Its crap, and a really awful way for them to go. I totally am in agreement with the frustration about the lack of responsibility for those horses. Unfortunately, there's no way to surgically attach a sense of responsibility to people so you're always going to be fighting a losing battle there.

My thought would be to take a look at the most common medications used for horses - such as pesticides, anthelmentics, antibiotics, etc - and then hold horses in feedlots for a pre-determined flush out period such as 30 days. Its not that expensive to feed a horse for 30 days, and in some cases they might even put more weight on them. Though, honestly, they obviously don't worry about the chemicals as they are now. I think it's more of a consideration for horse meat used for human consumption than animal consumption and I have a feeling it'll be a cold day in hell before we see horse steaks on the shelf in the US.

I think there are a lot of options and opportunities available, they just haven't been explored yet. If we start getting more of the equine public involved, I bet we could get a lot more gelding and euthanasia clinics sponsored to help those who want to do right by their animals. Likewise, lobbying to the big Breed registries and pointing out that their involvement in supporting those clinics is GOOD PUBLICITY could help bring in funds that would further help take care of the problem.

Educational seminars for new horse owners or even horse enthusiasts who basically "just don't know any better" can also help decrease the unwanted horse population (ie gelding your stallion is GOOD!). Sponsorship of rescue/rehabbed horse classes in local and regional shows can highlight those horses that have either come from a rescue and need a home, or those that were rescued and have moved on to a new life and career. It shows John Q public that while this horse had a rough start, they are more than capable of being a good companion now.

A lot of people also don't have the experience to rehab a horse and some are unsure of how to care of an underweight or older horse so again, hosting low cost or free seminars to educate the general public may help encourage them to take on a project they wouldn't have in the past. A little further out in left field (as in way less likely), trainers offering reduced rates (even if just for the first few lessons) for people who have taken on a rescue can also help both the new owner and the horse a good foundation to grow on.

In terms of slaughterhouses, we could start from the ground up. Start exploring options for housing horses during a flush out period - separation by age, size, and gender for starters. You don't even need a ton of room for that, just the staff to be diligent about making sure the right horse ends up in the right paddock. Require owners to bring recent veterinary paperwork to auctions and feedlots to show recent medications, and turn away those who don't provide the appropriate paperwork or who have too long of a flush out period. I don't care whether they pay the owners or not - I would like to say they shouldn't, but that's an unrealistic expectation. I don't think most owners turn to slaughter saying "Well, just gotta get that last buck out of 'em!". Some do, but I'd like to believe most are at the end of their rope and have run out of options.

For the actual act of slaughtering the horse, work with equine professionals to develop a system that will be less stressful for the horses involved. Maybe it's more hands on and intensive than in the past, but it would be better for the animals and the staff, and hopefully we could even show it to be a non-traumatic way for them to die. The French and Dutch have been slaughtering horses for years without the sort of problems we have - surely we can find something in their practices to make our own more humane.

I just think there's SO MUCH that CAN be done, and relatively little that HAS been done. Its such a complicated issue that to treat it as simply black and white is not doing justice to the people or the horses involved. Unfortunately, everyone has their opinions on it and some may be completely unwilling to change their minds.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

Good ideas, but I'm going to nitpick (hey you can say I'm preparing you for interviews)

What about the horses that are sold to slaughter because of mortal wounds, incurable lameness, etc? It would be inhumane to make them stand around for 30 days, and some would even not survive it. I've seen amish farmers bring their belgian work horses with a broken leg to the auction to sell for meat. I've seen horses so lame brought to the auction that they lie down in the ring and sell for $6. I know there are "non ambulatory" clauses, but no one really enforces that.

Also, requiring people to bring vet records to the auction... not gonna happen. The reason the horses are at the auction is because people don't care. The horses have likely not even been vetted in a while. The people that do care about their horse but can't afford euthanasia always, in my experiences, find an option- put the horse down by bullet and raise money for rendering, or search craigslist for big cat or wolf rescues that will use the body, zoo's, predatory bird rescues, or even a kind farmer with a tractor that will bury your horse for a small fee. You just have to ask around and put some work into it, there are many options.

And I'm a little confused about your comment about horse steaks in the US... most of the horse meat is exported to countries that DO eat horses, and where horse meat is actually pretty valuable.

 

[Niri]

I've seen horses so lame brought to the auction that they lie down in the ring and sell for $6. I know there are "non ambulatory" clauses, but no one really enforces that.

Especially in livestock, there are major concerns about processing downer cows for human consumption because of the possible concerns about BSE. There was a major issue with a slaughterhouse in California that was processing downer dairy cattle recently enough that people are not trying too hard to mess with the system right now. I think that if there were non-ambulatory cases, those horses could be rendered for cat/dog food or other non-human food supply products.

 

[bunnity]

I'm not a horse person, but it seems to me that it is pretty commonplace to sell a horse when you are moving, or need a more talented horse for showing, or whatever. It doesn't seem that the majority of people consider a horse a lifetime commitment the way they do a dog or cat. Very different from dogs and cats where it is considered pretty low to sell or rehome your dog / cat simply because it doesn't fit your needs as well anymore.

So since most people don't keep their horses until old age, what happens / what is supposed to happen to those horses too old to fulfill their original purpose? I think the constant changing of hands is part of the problem - if you sell your horse you don't necessarily have control over what happens to it. There are horse rescues but not nearly as many as dog rescues. What would be the best way to care for all the horses that are healthy enough to be comfortable but not healthy enough to ride and work? Euthanasia? A horse retirement home? The original owner keeping the horse for life regardless of its usefulness?

I know little about horses so I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just feel like horses are, in this culture, still somewhat considered livestock and that less people want to keep their horses for life the way people want to keep dogs for life (I know there are people that do, but I've seen the "should I sell my horse when I go to vet school?" lots of times and never "should I sell my cat?").

 

[Tobysgirl81]

Good ideas, but I'm going to nitpick (hey you can say I'm preparing you for interviews)

What about the horses that are sold to slaughter because of mortal wounds, incurable lameness, etc? It would be inhumane to make them stand around for 30 days, and some would even not survive it. I've seen amish farmers bring their belgian work horses with a broken leg to the auction to sell for meat. I've seen horses so lame brought to the auction that they lie down in the ring and sell for $6. I know there are "non ambulatory" clauses, but no one really enforces that.

Also, requiring people to bring vet records to the auction... not gonna happen. The reason the horses are at the auction is because people don't care. The horses have likely not even been vetted in a while. The people that do care about their horse but can't afford euthanasia always, in my experiences, find an option- put the horse down by bullet and raise money for rendering, or search craigslist for big cat or wolf rescues that will use the body, zoo's, predatory bird rescues, or even a kind farmer with a tractor that will bury your horse for a small fee. You just have to ask around and put some work into it, there are many options.

And I'm a little confused about your comment about horse steaks in the US... most of the horse meat is exported to countries that DO eat horses, and where horse meat is actually pretty valuable.

Already in vet school 🙂 This is just an area I happen to be concerned and passionate about.

Like I said previously, this is a very complicated problem that doesn't have an easy answer. If I went into every detail my posts would be longer than they already ARE, which is saying a lot. And honestly, I don't HAVE all the answers. The good news is there's more than just me out there with more creative ideas than myself 🙂

I agree that horses with crippling lamenesses are a real problem and its not something I have an immediate answer to. What would you do about it? You can't support them on medication because it could potentially contaminate the meat. You can't take them off of medication because it's inhumane to do so. I guess the question would be if the levels of medications in the horse were high enough to lead to mead contamination at the time that they go through auction, or if it would be at safe levels for say animal consumption.

So would be enforcing having vet documentation for the reasons you stated. However, at slaughterhouses in the US a vet has to be present for all operations and if they suddenly started demanding documentation for all the horses present or else they couldn't be slaughtered, you can be sure as heck that those kill buyers would start demanding it and so would the auction house owners. You can't very well make a profit if the buck stops before it becomes a product.

And I disagree that horses are at auction because people just don't care. I have seen several people who love their horses but have run out of options - Big Cat sanctuaries won't take their horses, rescues are full, their horse is lame so they can't place it on Craigslist (I'm fairly experienced with horses and *I* wouldn't take most of the free horses listed there), they live in an urban area - whatever it is, they have no money and no further options and all they can do is take them to auction and pray. We know how that story normally ends, but it is the way it is.

You know those little random memories that pop up every now and then? In the early 90s during the last recession the Arabian horse market also went bust, and a crap ton of horses ended up going through auctions and to slaughter. People had been using them for tax breaks, and selling them at exorbadent prices for write off purposes. I think around '92 they changed the tax laws and suddenly horses were no longer eligible for tax write offs and breaks, so all these people who go into it for the wrong reasons were pretty much throwing their horses away. Horses that were selling for $100,000 + a year prior were going to auction at $150 a head. It was crazy.

I remember right around that time my 4-H group took a field trip to a local auction, and I was soooo amazed that horses were selling for so little. I was young - like 11 or 12. Now when I look back on it I remember some of the little details. There were at least two horses I remember specifically being Arabs that were just stunning. They sold for almost nothing. And I remember a QH mare who's owners were there. It was the kid's horse and he spent the whole time grooming her and showing her off to people, riding her. I don't remember how much she sold for, but I remember how much he loved his horse and how torn up he was that he had to sell her. It was probably the last time that the horse market was so saturated that people couldn't even give away horses, and that was their last option.

My comment about steaks was meant to be tongue in cheek. No, we don't eat horse meat in the US. Yes, it is exported overseas to where they do eat it. I just don't know what the provisions are NOW for making sure that the meat isn't contaminated by drugs when intended for human consumption. My argument is it all may be a moot point. If they aren't having to make special arrangements NOW, then we may not need to worry about it again should slaughter houses reopen.

 

[Whyevernot55]

So since most people don't keep their horses until old age, what happens / what is supposed to happen to those horses too old to fulfill their original purpose? I think the constant changing of hands is part of the problem - if you sell your horse you don't necessarily have control over what happens to it. There are horse rescues but not nearly as many as dog rescues. What would be the best way to care for all the horses that are healthy enough to be comfortable but not healthy enough to ride and work? Euthanasia? A horse retirement home? The original owner keeping the horse for life regardless of its usefulness?

I know little about horses so I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just feel like horses are, in this culture, still somewhat considered livestock and that less people want to keep their horses for life the way people want to keep dogs for life (I know there are people that do, but I've seen the "should I sell my horse when I go to vet school?" lots of times and never "should I sell my cat?").

As someone who owns horses, and has made this decision, I firmly believe that euthanasia is the best option for "horses that are healthy enough to be comfortable but not healthy enough to ride and work" and whose owners can't keep them. There ARE retirement specific barns for horses - a friend has her older, retired horse at a great one. However, you are still paying for care, which is cost prohibitive for many people, and you have to do a lot of research on the place you're sending your horse.
4 years ago I had to make a choice about my older mare. I couldn't afford to keep her and my younger competition horse, but I didn't trust her to anyone else. She was sound enough to do a little work, but NOT for anyone but an extremely advanced rider, and how many of those want half-lame old mares? She was a high maintenance girl.
I found a retirement facility with space near my mother's home. When I went to visit, I was not impressed, and could NOT leave her there. So I sucked it up, and took her with me to Ohio when I moved with my other horse, until I could make some decisions. I had called several vet schools about donating her to their programs, but I was able to continue to care for her in the meantime (even though it meant eating a lot of ramen and living in the world's tiniest studio). In the end, I donated her to a terminal study at a vet school program. I had been to their barns and knew people who worked there, and was confident she'd be well cared for in the last few months before being humanely euthanized. That was the only right way for me. I still wish I had been able to keep her in my care for another few years, until she was not comfortable as a pasture puff, and then let her go, but under the circumstances I believe I made the right choice. Not that it wasn't hard, or that it doesn't make me sad. I fully intend to keep my current horse until he dies. Even if that means putting off buying a new one that might actually be rideable when current Dumb Gelding finally puts himself out of commission with an absurd injury.

Yes, horses are a commodity, and are a business item. They are routinely bought and sold because you need a bigger horse for your kid who has outgrown a pony, or a more talented horse, or your old horse is lame and unrideable. But shipping your lame horse to auction is never, ever going to be ok in my book. Either retire them to a pasture to live out their days, or give them a kinder end with humane euthanasia in your back pasture. How many people turn their elderly cats and dogs loose because they are sick, or try to rehome them because they can't pay the vet bills to treat kidney disease or arthritis or whatever else they have? Do you think that's ok? Wouldn't it be kinder to euth than cause them the trauma of a new place, new people, and potentially mistreatment or neglect? The expense of euth and body disposal is, frankly, something you should be prepared for the day you buy the horse.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

Yes, horses are a commodity, and are a business item. They are routinely bought and sold because you need a bigger horse for your kid who has outgrown a pony, or a more talented horse, or your old horse is lame and unrideable. But shipping your lame horse to auction is never, ever going to be ok in my book. Either retire them to a pasture to live out their days, or give them a kinder end with humane euthanasia in your back pasture. How many people turn their elderly cats and dogs loose because they are sick, or try to rehome them because they can't pay the vet bills to treat kidney disease or arthritis or whatever else they have? Do you think that's ok? Wouldn't it be kinder to euth than cause them the trauma of a new place, new people, and potentially mistreatment or neglect? The expense of euth and body disposal is, frankly, something you should be prepared for the day you buy the horse.

I never said it was alright to dispose of ANY animal inhumanely. I think we can ALL agree that a humane end is the most we can hope for ALL of our animals. I just think you can't put all people into a single box and castigate those who don't fit into it.

Some people MAY have purchased their horse with money put aside for euthanasia and disposal, but given our current economic state were forced to use it for...I don't know, food. Rent. Gas. Electricity. And yes, I know, there's always someone out there who will say "WELL I WOULD GO WITHOUT ELECTRICITY TO MAKE SURE MY HORSE WAS TAKEN CARE OF!". But would you allow your children to go without electricity?

Again, not a simple argument. This is one of those very convoluted situations where you can't just put everything into black and white. And I don't have all the answers. I CAN however tell you I've seen more than a few people put down their cats and dogs for long term illnesses because they can't afford the medication - even before the economic crisis. However, disposal of a cat or dog is significantly less expensive than that of a horse. Likewise I've seen people turn out their dogs and cats for the same reason - let them loose in the streets (They'll just go find some place to curl up and die...it's better that way), dump them at animal control and shelters. Try and look at some of the pounds down in North and South Carolina and take a gander at the seniors who are going to live out their last days there. Essentially the same as slaughter, just without the money for the owners. I don't believe that's alright either, but unfortunately it's a reality we live with. You can't mandate responsibility.

Again, right or wrong of slaughter is not the point. Honestly, done right, a bullet to the head is just as quick (faster even) and as humane as chemical euthanasia is. I personally wish we didn't have a need for equine slaughter, but there's that old saying about "If wishes were horses...". The best we can do is try to make humane euthanasia more readily available and less expensive, support local rescue efforts, provide educational resources to those in the industry and hopefully reduce the number of owners who consider it an option in the first place. And maybe while we're working on it we can stop backyard breeding and finally get world peace 🙂

 

[Mohorsegirl]

An interesting article on this subject:

"AVMA has claimed that the most common and preferred method of choice to end a horse's life is by humane euthanasia administered by a veterinarian. AVMA continues, however, to state that the captive bolt gun previously used in the US horse slaughter facilities is listed as acceptable and humane even though the AVMA is aware that their own requirement of the horse's head being restrained is not possible and not implemented at slaughter plants. The study that deemed the captive bolt gun acceptable was performed in a controlled environment by veterinarians for veterinarians. It is a gross misuse of that study to claim the findings would even be remotely the same in a horse slaughter facility environment where the horses are terrified and extremely stressed, workers are unskilled, and the horses' heads are not restrained and where hundreds of horses are slaughtered per day.
The outrageous cruelty of horse slaughter that was recently exposed by documented information and video from undercover investigations caused outrage in Europe. European consumers realized they had been misled by a disinformation campaign waged by slaughter proponents that told them the horses they had been consuming did not suffer or die inhumanely and that the meat was free of medications and nutritious. Investigations in Canada, Mexico and South America have damaged this consumer confidence. The second largest grocer in Belgium has removed US horse meat from its shelves. A major distributor has assured its customers that they will only sell European horse meat. Two major slaughter plants in Canada are under investigation by government agencies."

 

[quantized]

An interesting article on this subject:

"AVMA has claimed that the most common and preferred method of choice to end a horse's life is by humane euthanasia administered by a veterinarian. AVMA continues, however, to state that the captive bolt gun previously used in the US horse slaughter facilities is listed as acceptable and humane even though the AVMA is aware that their own requirement of the horse's head being restrained is not possible and not implemented at slaughter plants. The study that deemed the captive bolt gun acceptable was performed in a controlled environment by veterinarians for veterinarians. It is a gross misuse of that study to claim the findings would even be remotely the same in a horse slaughter facility environment where the horses are terrified and extremely stressed, workers are unskilled, and the horses' heads are not restrained and where hundreds of horses are slaughtered per day.
The outrageous cruelty of horse slaughter that was recently exposed by documented information and video from undercover investigations caused outrage in Europe. European consumers realized they had been misled by a disinformation campaign waged by slaughter proponents that told them the horses they had been consuming did not suffer or die inhumanely and that the meat was free of medications and nutritious. Investigations in Canada, Mexico and South America have damaged this consumer confidence. The second largest grocer in Belgium has removed US horse meat from its shelves. A major distributor has assured its customers that they will only sell European horse meat. Two major slaughter plants in Canada are under investigation by government agencies."

Source?

ed: Ok I figured it out. I think my head just exploded.

 

[Angelus9]

I know little about horses so I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just feel like horses are, in this culture, still somewhat considered livestock

That's not offensive at all, but is in large part the crux of the matter. Horses ARE livestock. As much as we love them and many of us do love and dote on their every wish, and many of us do keep them for their entire lifetimes. I myself have been paying board on a pasture potato for years now - she's retired, she deserves it, and I hope she lives a long, long, long time. But that's me with this particular horse. The problem is HSUS and do-gooders wanting to remove the horse from the livestock category into the pet category - or companion animal, since a lot of these groups reject the word "pet." There is more and more legal pressure to change laws so that dogs, for instance, once bought can never be rehomed. If horses are moved out of livestock into the pet category, such legislation and restrictions will be pushed for them. Huge mistake, in my opinion for many reasons.

Only one: you buy a horse for a specific task, say dressage. It hates dressage but absolutely loves flying over fences. Or vice versa. You will have a much happier horse if you place it in a home with an owner who wants to do what the HORSE loves doing. Horse people know this. They've seen it over & over again. AR people don't know this and don't take the time to actually learn about and understand animals in order to truly do what is best for them.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

I think my head just exploded.

?

 

[awaring1]

In the end, I donated her to a terminal study at a vet school program. I had been to their barns and knew people who worked there, and was confident she'd be well cared for in the last few months before being humanely euthanized.

As someone who works caring for horses in a terminal trial I can agree that it is a much better end than being sent to a slaughter house. Unfortunately, the project I am working on uses all horses <6 years old. It breaks my heart to see theses horses, some as young as 18 months, being sent to their end before they can live. However, I also live in an area where I have seen horses standing mid-cannon in mud/feces as they starve in their 30 sq ft barbed wire pen. The humane societies can do nothing for them because they have a small moldy pile of hay that counts as "feed" and a tiny run-down shack that counts as "shelter." I would much rather have horses be killed by universities (they prefer the term "sacrifice") in a humane way than see them starve. Most of the horses for one trial were all auction horses that were most likely bound for slaughter. They were all 100+lbs underweight and had been neglected and abused. For at least one year of their life they knew what it was like to be free of parasites, have real food and have someone (such as myself) call them silly names, scratch their withers and genuinely love them. Our newest batch of terminal trial horses are mostly OTTB, which sucks. (the problem of thoroughbred re-homing is another topic for another time).

Anyways, the problem of horse slaughter stems from the much larger problem of unwanted horses. (already well addressed on this topic).

I heard somehwere that there is a slaughter house being built out West that is specifically designed for horses. Everything from the loading chutes to stun-method has been made to make it equine humane. (I do not have a source for this. In fact, if anyone knows anything about this I would love to know more)

 

[Mohorsegirl]

One thing that I don't understand and doesn't make sense with the "slaughter is better than starving" argument is that people are still letting horses starve today, when it is 100% legal to sell to slaughter and fairly easy to dump your horse at an auction.

Slaughter is legal, and horses are still being abused and starved to death as much as they were when slaughter houses were open in the US.

 

[awaring1]

Slaughter is legal, and horses are still being abused and starved to death as much as they were when slaughter houses were open in the US.

While I do not have exact numbers, it is well known that the number of horses being neglected and starved has increased dramatically since the ban of horse slaughter. I have worked at an equine rescue that experienced it first hand and have heard identical situations from others in the rescue world.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

While I do not have exact numbers, it is well known that the number of horses being neglected and starved has increased dramatically since the ban of horse slaughter. I have worked at an equine rescue that experienced it first hand and have heard identical situations from others in the rescue world.

"Illinois Department of Agriculture reported that following the burning of the only slaughter plant in the region, abuse cases quit rising and went down between 2002 and 2003. California banned horse slaughter in 1998, since that time horse theft has dropped 34% and cruelty reports have not increased (Dr. Carolyn Stull). Texas, which had the only two slaughter plants in 2003, had among the nations highest rates of cruelty and theft."

http://www.equinewebdesign.com/horse-slaughter/information/18200483941.html

Selling horses for slaughter is still legal and pretty easy, so why would the closing of plants in the US have any effect on the rates of abuse and starvation?

 

[Mohorsegirl]

Heres a very good study on horse slaughter and abuse rates:

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/horseslaughter-123.shtml

 

[awaring1]

Heres a very good study on horse slaughter and abuse rates:

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/horseslaughter-123.shtml

Good article with some very good points.

I think what it comes down to is that no matter what is legal or illegal there will ALWAYS be evil people out there that will abuse and neglect their animal. There is no one answer to this problem.

Ugh. This is suck a sticky topic. I have been a vegetarian my entire life and my own gelding was saved from a slaughter truck at a young age. The thought of horses being slaughtered commercially sickens me but the thought of a slow painful death of neglect sickens me more. I wish someone would just be able to say "here is the right answer" and I could be all like "Cool. Thanks dude."

Another interesting topic to point out: there have been some that propose that American's should start eating horse meat or start exporting our horses' meat to places like France or other countries. Hypothetically let's say this happens and it becomes lucrative. Would commercial-grade horse farms start popping up that would produce horses as bulk livestock for slaughter? I know farms like that exist in Europe, but could they happen here? Holy crap could you imagine the controversy that would cause?

 

[quantized]

?

The works you site have no scientific credibility. They pick and choose facts and the credentials of the "authors" are debatable. If you're going to try and argue a point with people, use journal articles instead of stuff from equinewebdesign.com and crazy letters sent by some welfare group that include two pages of weird testimonials. You're choosing emotionally charged articles as proof and not even citing where you got your proof from instead of concentrating on the facts. There are plenty of peer-reviewed scientific journals and reputable websites that you can access as a pre-vet, that present actual unbiased data and proceedings from symposiums on the subject. Pubmed is your friend.

Here, look I did some work for you.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1321526
http://www.j-evs.com/article/S0737-0806%2809%2900259-7/abstract
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC2034431/reload=0;jsessionid=C90C11CAF7012329B55A6AD1FFC4148E.jvm1
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=574367&sk=&date=&pageID=3

Some of those even support your points in a lot more credible manner, but they also present data to the contrary and try to draw reasonable and logical conclusions based on facts instead of emotionally charged diatribes.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

The works you site have no scientific credibility. They pick and choose facts and the credentials of the "authors" are debatable. If you're going to try and argue a point with people, use journal articles instead of stuff from equinewebdesign.com and crazy letters sent by some welfare group that include two pages of weird testimonials. You're choosing emotionally charged articles as proof and not even citing where you got your proof from instead of concentrating on the facts. There are plenty of peer-reviewed scientific journals and reputable websites that you can access as a pre-vet, that present actual unbiased data and proceedings from symposiums on the subject. Pubmed is your friend.

Here, look I did some work for you.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1321526
http://www.j-evs.com/article/S0737-0806%2809%2900259-7/abstract
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC2034431/reload=0;jsessionid=C90C11CAF7012329B55A6AD1FFC4148E.jvm1
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=574367&sk=&date=&pageID=3

Some of those even support your points in a lot more credible manner, but they also present data to the contrary and try to draw reasonable and logical conclusions based on facts instead of emotionally charged diatribes.

I wasn't using that as "proof" of anything, I just said it was interesting. The AVMA does say that captive bolt slaughter for horses is only humane with head restraint.

"I wish someone would just be able to say "here is the right answer" and I could be all like "Cool. Thanks dude." "

Did you read my "solution" I proposed above? What do you think of that? I'm looking for criticism. I know the shipping cooled carcasses would cost money to ship in a refrigerated truck to a processing plant, but I think it would actually be cost effective because you could pack way more half carcasses on a truck than you could live horses.

 

[sumstorm]

I just had to point out that the concept of a local slaughter house in every zip code seems just a bit impossible to me. We don't even have vets in every zip code, and I highly doubt anyone in Manhatten is going to pay the rent to run a slaughter house.

I have seen championship horses go to slaughter due to injury. I've seen incredibly beloved pet horses go to slaughter due to family finances. The reality in even the best breeding programs is that not every horse birthed is going to be ideal in temperament, conformation, and ability, even if the breeding stock are exceptional.

I grew up in an area where any animal that didn't earn it's keep and contribute to the farm didn't remain. I now have a home in a Carolina horse community. I see problem horse after problem horse passed around, which I believe is also traumatic for the horses and the folks dealing with them. One thing to remember at an auction; very rarely do we, the spectators, know all the details of that horse. It may be dead broke, but unwilling to leave a barn. Or it may be prone to colic. Or it may be aggressive.

I'd much rather see a slaughter house in the states than elsewhere with improvements and a Temple Grandin approach to improving the slaughter house. So for the folks opposed to slaughter as inhumane, why not start figuring out how to make a large (the only really cost effective business model) slaughter house humane? Local ones sound great...but we have to remember that they must also generate a profit to stay in business, and in most zip codes of the country, that would be unlikely.

 

[awaring1]

why not start figuring out how to make a large (the only really cost effective business model) slaughter house humane?

In my opinion, this is THE answer. I personally feel like the main problem with equine slaughter is that it is incredibly inhumane. Horses are not cattle, they are physically different and have incredibly different temperaments. I believe that all of the great horse minds in the country should come together and design a slaughter facility that is humane as physically possible.

For those that oppose horse slaughter solely on the fact that "these are horses! They are so pretty and awesome and stuff!" I have to call you out as hypocrites. I am vegetarian and have been one my entire life. I am the LEAST preachy vegetarian you will ever meet, but I must stand up here. Horses are animals. People in the US slaughter animals. I do not see any bleeding hearts trying to end the slaughter of beef, swine and sheep. All of those animals are also intelligent (especially pigs, who are smarter than horses) and can feel pain. So far a lot of this debate as been solid and based on the humanity of the issue, but you know there are some who cringe at slaughter simply because they are a horse. When it all comes down to it, Black Beauty = Babe = Bessie.