retook classes and got a C+s; is it over? how to move forward?

[coconutlovurr21]

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To be frank, Chemistry is one of my weakest subjects. Unfortunately, when I took Gen Chem I freshman year, I ended up receiving a C- and had to retake. I (unfortunately) ended with a 78.8% (C+) for the retake. Then, junior year, I ended up getting a D in Orgo I. I retook it during a five-week class over the summer at my university, and had a steady B going, but did very meh on the third exam and poor on the final and it dropped to a C+.

I constantly earn C+'s in chemistry (Gen CHEM I, II, and Orgo I). As I take orgo II, (and biochem in the future), I am hoping to do much better in them to demonstrate improvement. However, I feel like I've put myself in a pretty awful hole. My GPA will end to be very low (~3.2), so I have been considering a SMP or a post-bacc. However, I'm not sure if even that can save my abysmal track record.

Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!

 

[AJS59]

To be frank, Chemistry is one of my weakest subjects. Unfortunately, when I took Gen Chem I freshman year, I ended up receiving a C- and had to retake. I (unfortunately) ended with a 78.8% (C+) for the retake. Then, junior year, I ended up getting a D in Orgo I. I retook it during a five-week class over the summer at my university, and had a steady B going, but did very meh on the third exam and poor on the final and it dropped to a C+.

I constantly earn C+'s in chemistry (Gen CHEM I, II, and Orgo I). As I take orgo II, (and biochem in the future), I am hoping to do much better in them to demonstrate improvement. However, I feel like I've put myself in a pretty awful hole. My GPA will end to be very low (~3.2), so I have been considering a SMP or a post-bacc. However, I'm not sure if even that can save my abysmal track record.

Any insight would be appreciated. Thank you!

It's not the end end of the world, but you're in an uphill battle now. A couple of things:
1. I'd recommend the post-bacc option if your struggles are primarily in chemistry; you can do an SMP as well but those are quite a bit more high risk high reward (i.e. not performing well in an SMP tends to shut the door on admissions).
2. That being said, you MUST change the way you're approaching studying chemistry, especially for both your future classes AND especially the MCAT. How do you currently study for these classes now?

 

[eigen]

I think you need to do some thinking about why your approach is leading to these results. You mention it's one of your weakest subjects, but *why* is it one of your weakest subjects? If you know it's your weakest subject, are you making sure your schedule has enough time in a semester when you have a chemistry class to put extra studying time in to compensate?

One issue I notice with a lot of students is that they try to move on when they don't know the basics, and that continues a downward spiral.

 

[AsclepiusAdvisingLLC]

Medical schools want to ensure that you will pass their curricula, and there are many ways to demonstrate that you will do so if accepted. Grades are one metric, the MCAT is another. Ensuring that you take rigorous coursework moving forward and do well is a key next step. I agree with other respondents that you will need to reflect upon what is not working with your study habits and address them.

 

[coconutlovurr21]

It's not the end end of the world, but you're in an uphill battle now. A couple of things:
1. I'd recommend the post-bacc option if your struggles are primarily in chemistry; you can do an SMP as well but those are quite a bit more high risk high reward (i.e. not performing well in an SMP tends to shut the door on admissions).
2. That being said, you MUST change the way you're approaching studying chemistry, especially for both your future classes AND especially the MCAT. How do you currently study for these classes now?

I think a major reason why I struggled was definitely because I had undiagnosed ADHD. I just couldn't find it in myself to put in the effort long-term and sit down, study/read the textbook for long periods, and do practice problems. I would quite literally "study" for two days, and cram hard-core the night before based purely off of adrenaline. Adrenaline would literally be the only thing fueling me to study, and I know that was such a terrible way to approach it. However, I definitely find it easier to study for longer periods for now, so that's definitely a good sign.

I have been actively reading the textbook and attempting to do practice problems after every chapter. I spend 2-3 hours per week studying for organic chem and it is long-term studying rather than cramming a few days before. However, if you have any better tips on how to approach studying for organic/biochem, please let me know. I would love to get better in any possible way.

I would like to do a post-bacc, but I think I would like to alleviate my chances to MD schools, which is why I lean more towards SMPS. I do understand that they're very risky and pricey, which is why I'm slightly hesitant. Would someone like me not be a good candidate for one? I'm not very well-versed and I tried to ask my advisor about it and she wasn't very informed on those either : (

Thank you for your response!

 

[coconutlovurr21]

I think you need to do some thinking about why your approach is leading to these results. You mention it's one of your weakest subjects, but *why* is it one of your weakest subjects? If you know it's your weakest subject, are you making sure your schedule has enough time in a semester when you have a chemistry class to put extra studying time in to compensate?

One issue I notice with a lot of students is that they try to move on when they don't know the basics, and that continues a downward spiral

I just do not think I spent much time studying/understanding it as I should have. Like you said, I had such a shaky start with the basics (Gen Chem I) that it severely set me back more than I'd like to admit. I think I understood Gen Chem II much better, but the poor foundation definitely prevented me from having a complete understanding.

I'm trying to set at least 2-4 hours a week for Orgo II this semester and spending more time on practice problems and studying. Hopefully, this will help. If there's any studying methods that you feel are worth trying, I would be very thankful and open to trying them!

Thank you!!

 

[AJS59]

I think a major reason why I struggled was definitely because I had undiagnosed ADHD. I just couldn't find it in myself to put in the effort long-term and sit down, study/read the textbook for long periods, and do practice problems. I would quite literally "study" for two days, and cram hard-core the night before based purely off of adrenaline. Adrenaline would literally be the only thing fueling me to study, and I know that was such a terrible way to approach it. However, I definitely find it easier to study for longer periods for now, so that's definitely a good sign.

I have been actively reading the textbook and attempting to do practice problems after every chapter. I spend 2-3 hours per week studying for organic chem and it is long-term studying rather than cramming a few days before. However, if you have any better tips on how to approach studying for organic/biochem, please let me know. I would love to get better in any possible way.

I would like to do a post-bacc, but I think I would like to alleviate my chances to MD schools, which is why I lean more towards SMPS. I do understand that they're very risky and pricey, which is why I'm slightly hesitant. Would someone like me not be a good candidate for one? I'm not very well-versed and I tried to ask my advisor about it and she wasn't very informed on those either : (

Thank you for your response!

I think it'd be useful to know your overall GPA and science GPA. If it's significantly under a 3.5, I'd lean SMP. If not, you might be able to get away with a post-bacc. Just understand that if you elect the SMP route, you better be prepared to work your tail off.

 

[coconutlovurr21]

Medical schools want to ensure that you will pass their curricula, and there are many ways to demonstrate that you will do so if accepted. Grades are one metric, the MCAT is another. Ensuring that you take rigorous coursework moving forward and do well is a key next step. I agree with other respondents that you will need to reflect upon what is not working with your study habits and address them.

What would count as rigorous? Would level 300s count as rigorous? Sorry, that might be a dumb question, but I just want to get clarification so I can proceed in the best way possible.

I'm currently cleaning up my schedule, so I'm taking quite a few level 300s, so that would show as my most recent coursework. However, I have taken a bunch of level 400s in the past and I believe I've gotten almost all A's and B+/B's in them. I will be taking some more lvl 400s this summer and attempt to ace the MCAT. Most of my poor grades are in my lvl 200s/Chem.

Thank you!

 

[coconutlovurr21]

I think it'd be useful to know your overall GPA and science GPA. If it's significantly under a 3.5, I'd lean SMP. If not, you might be able to get away with a post-bacc. Just understand that if you elect the SMP route, you better be prepared to work your tail off.

Hi,

My science gpa and cGPA are both sitting at a 3.0 right now. If I finish these last 20 credits with A's/B's, I will most likely end with a 3.1-3.2, which is extremely low and not competitive at all. Thus, a post-bacc would not do much for me.

I assume and understand SMPS are extremely difficult, but is that more because they are fast-paced or competitive? I understand they are really difficult, that's why I'm a little apprehensive, but is there any way I can get more information on them to decide?

Thank you! : )

 

[chilly_md]

What would count as rigorous? Would level 300s count as rigorous? Sorry, that might be a dumb question, but I just want to get clarification so I can proceed in the best way possible.

I'm currently cleaning up my schedule, so I'm taking quite a few level 300s, so that would show as my most recent coursework. However, I have taken a bunch of level 400s in the past and I believe I've gotten almost all A's and B+/B's in them. I will be taking some more lvl 400s this summer and attempt to ace the MCAT. Most of my poor grades are in my lvl 200s/Chem.

Thank you!

Level 300s means something specific to you, not to us outside your university. Upper division classes should be ones where there is probably a lower level pre-req. Common ones would be biochem, genetics, cancer biology, virology etc. Check your transcript and let us know your yearly GPA breakdown, but a 3.2 GPA cumulative up to this point suggests you've had a tougher time consistently in many of your courses or some much worse years to start with and possibly a stronger junior year (3.5-3.6). Finish your remaining classes and see how you do now that you are treating your ADHD.

Goro's guide to reinvention will give you more details:

Thread 'Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)'

Aug 25, 2021

EDIT: Post in WAMC forum for recommended school lists. This thread isn't for that.

So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

An even better summary to the next paragraph...

• Goro
• Replies: 427
• Forum: Pre-Medical (MD)

• 
• 

Emphasis again since this came up before when you were at an earlier stage of college. You need to focus on improving and fixing what is going on now. Post bacc vs SMP should be a moot point right now till you complete however many semesters/science classes left for your degree with A's.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I think a major reason why I struggled was definitely because I had undiagnosed ADHD.

I infer from this that you have been diagnosed. Have you successfully been granted accommodations for any of the courses you have taken since the diagnosis (dx)? Have you gone to Learning Services or your course TA's to get as much assistance as possible? It's not about sitting in front of a textbook for 2 hours (which I would not think is effective for you). It is about engaging with the material and learning how to recall and evaluate new questions on quizzes or exams.

No postbac or SMP will help you unless you get help first. Once you are used to studying with your dx, can you learn the material to a standard we expect for future health professionals? If you cannot take care of yourself, you shouldn't put yourself in a situation where your ADHD could harm others.

Levels mean little outside the context of your school and your syllabus.

 

[eigen]

I'm trying to set at least 2-4 hours a week for Orgo II this semester and spending more time on practice problems and studying. Hopefully, this will help. If there's any studying methods that you feel are worth trying, I would be very thankful and open to trying them!

That's not nearly enough time. Credit hours are set based on the Carnegie system, where a credit hour is 1 hour in class and 2-3 hours out of class. Federal financial aid is based on each credit hour having a minimum of 6 hours a week of out of class work, which would be 6 hours a week for a 3 credit class like OChem. That usually means the minimum for an average student with average preparation to get an average grade.

I tell my students they should spend at least 6-9 hours out of class each week, or 1-2 hours a day on the class if they want to do well. Some can get by with less, but I suspect your main problem is that you aren't spending nearly enough time to succeed.

 

[coconutlovurr21]

Level 300s means something specific to you, not to us outside your university. Upper division classes should be ones where there is probably a lower level pre-req. Common ones would be biochem, genetics, cancer biology, virology etc. Check your transcript and let us know your yearly GPA breakdown, but a 3.2 GPA cumulative up to this point suggests you've had a tougher time consistently in many of your courses or some much worse years to start with and possibly a stronger junior year (3.5-3.6). Finish your remaining classes and see how you do now that you are treating your ADHD.

Goro's guide to reinvention will give you more details:

Thread 'Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)'

Aug 25, 2021

EDIT: Post in WAMC forum for recommended school lists. This thread isn't for that.

So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

An even better summary to the next paragraph...

• Goro
• Replies: 427
• Forum: Pre-Medical (MD)

• 
• 

Emphasis again since this came up before when you were at an earlier stage of college. You need to focus on improving and fixing what is going on now. Post bacc vs SMP should be a moot point right now till you complete however many semesters/science classes left for your degree with A's.

Thank you so much for your time and advice. I really do appreciate the in-depth response. I apologize. I was wrong as I miscalculated my cGPA. I assumed it was a 3.0, however only the cGPA is a ~3.0. However, here's my yearly breakdown:

Freshman year: 2.29 (cGPA); 1.667 (sGPA)
Sophomore year: 3.395 (cGPA); 3.345 (sGPA)
Junior year: 3.030 (cGPA); 2.84 (sGPA)

-in regards to this year, i'm aware the downward trend *really* looks bad the D in orgo, C+ in retake, and B- in a reproduction class set me back​

Senior year (Fall): 3.02 cGPA; 2.6 sGPA

If you'd like me to list the grades of a certain year/semester for further elaboration, I can.

I just assumed I should start fretting about an SMP/postbacc now as I was planning to apply by the summer. However, maybe that's something to worry about in the future. If you are available, I can get back to you with grades for this semester in the future.

Please give it to me as hard as you can. If it's not looking good (as in I'm very much done for), please let me know.

Thank you!

 

[coconutlovurr21]

That's not nearly enough time. Credit hours are set based on the Carnegie system, where a credit hour is 1 hour in class and 2-3 hours out of class. Federal financial aid is based on each credit hour having a minimum of 6 hours a week of out of class work, which would be 6 hours a week for a 3 credit class like OChem. That usually means the minimum for an average student with average preparation to get an average grade.

I tell my students they should spend at least 6-9 hours out of class each week, or 1-2 hours a day on the class if they want to do well. Some can get by with less, but I suspect your main problem is that you aren't spending nearly enough time to succeed.

oh, that makes much more sense. I assumed 2-3 hours per week was alright as I had read it on Reddit somewhere. However, what you are advising makes much more sense.

I will start incorporating 1-2 hours per day now just so I'm well-prepared.

Thank you so much! 🙂

 

[coconutlovurr21]

It's not about sitting in front of a textbook for 2 hours (which I would not think is effective for you). It is about engaging with the material and learning how to recall and evaluate new questions on quizzes or exams.

Thank you. Perhaps, this was where my approach was all wrong. I assumed reading the textbook and having a background knowledge would allow me to be better prepared for practice problems and the material. That's what I kept hearing on the internet/people I asked for advice. However, I suppose I really needed to get deeper with the understanding.

I will try that approach now.

Thank you!

 

[eigen]

I'm curious, how often do you go to office hours? Have you gotten a tutor? Do you ask your professors how to succeed when you're failing?

I ask because you've twice now suggested that your studying is based on (bad) advice you've seen online, which suggests you might not be making use of the (good) in person resources at your school, like your professor and the tutoring center.

 

[chilly_md]

Thank you so much for your time and advice. I really do appreciate the in-depth response. I apologize. I was wrong as I miscalculated my cGPA. I assumed it was a 3.0, however only the cGPA is a ~3.0. However, here's my yearly breakdown:

Freshman year: 2.29 (cGPA); 1.667 (sGPA)
Sophomore year: 3.395 (cGPA); 3.345 (sGPA)
Junior year: 3.030 (cGPA); 2.84 (sGPA)

-in regards to this year, i'm aware the downward trend *really* looks bad the D in orgo, C+ in retake, and B- in a reproduction class set me back​

Senior year (Fall): 3.02 cGPA; 2.6 sGPA

If you'd like me to list the grades of a certain year/semester for further elaboration, I can.

I just assumed I should start fretting about an SMP/postbacc now as I was planning to apply by the summer. However, maybe that's something to worry about in the future. If you are available, I can get back to you with grades for this semester in the future.

Please give it to me as hard as you can. If it's not looking good (as in I'm very much done for), please let me know.

Thank you!

What did you take in the fall and why do you think you got the grades you did in each of them? Are there also other time commitments you have going on each week? The repro course stands out in junior year to me because that's also not really a technical course like the different chemistry classes have been, and I assume you weren't in any math or chem classes in the fall either.

Do not think about the SMP now. Postbacc, I would recommend doing a DIY one at a local state university, but that also should be on hold.

 

[coconutlovurr21]

What did you take in the fall and why do you think you got the grades you did in each of them? Are there also other time commitments you have going on each week? The repro course stands out in junior year to me because that's also not really a technical course like the different chemistry classes have been, and I assume you weren't in any math or chem classes in the fall either.

Do not think about the SMP now. Postbacc, I would recommend doing a DIY one at a local state university, but that also should be on hold.

For senior year fall, I was originally registered for genetics, organic chemistry II, biodiversity, virology, and studio art (to complete gen ed requirements). My mother had a mastectomy, so unfortunately, I had to take care of her + the house as well as some other extracurriculars. I ended up withdrawing from orgo and genetics as I did not want to gamble my grades. I'm already in a deep hole, so I assumed that would be the best-case scenario.

I ended up getting a B in virology because I did quite poorly on the first exam (56%). I ended up doing well on the final three (90%, 88%, and 96%, respectively).

Biodiversity was my poorest grade (a C+). The class required a lot of time commitment that I could not give with stuff at home. I did okay on the exams (81% average). I had a B- in lab (worth a good chunk but I will not disclose the percentage to remain anon. If you would like, I could discuss it privately with you). However, I had a few assignments that I did not complete that truly caught up to me at the end, and I ended the course with a 79.

I had an A in the studio art class.

Reproductive biology was a summer class. It was asynch and with mother's health, I waited last minute to take all the exams (very poor decision by me). It could have been an A if I had applied myself properly.

Do not think about the SMP now. Postbacc, I would recommend doing a DIY one at a local state university, but that also should be on hold.

I completely trust your judgement, but if you don't mind me asking: why not an SMP? I would just like some clarification. I'm assuming it's because of my poor track record. However, if the ADHD treatment works and I end up getting good grades, do you still believe a postbacc is the way to go?

Thank you!

Thank you!

 

[coconutlovurr21]

I'm curious, how often do you go to office hours? Have you gotten a tutor? Do you ask your professors how to succeed when you're failing?

I ask because you've twice now suggested that your studying is based on (bad) advice you've seen online, which suggests you might not be making use of the (good) in person resources at your school, like your professor and the tutoring center.

I would go to office hours, however, I never really felt like I had any questions to ask. I believe that's because I would never really read the textbook/engage with the content deeply enough to have questions.

Also, I remember sophomore year, I asked my professor for help in succeeding in class. I believe I had done quite poor on an exam (like a 64%). Instead, she told me it was better if I withdrew because the best I could get was a B. It was a little mortifying, so I've kind of had an irrational fear of asking professors for help after that. I recently started trying to address that problem, so while not in Chemistry, I have asked for assistance the past semester for other courses.

Thanks!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Read the Admissions Guide resource for choosing a Postbac/SMP, but I agree that your fundamental study skills need uptooling before you go for the SMP or else you could hit "Game Over".

How to Choose a Postbaccalaureate or Special Masters Program (SMP) | SDN

Access free resources, expert advice, and tools to advance your medical career.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[coconutlovurr21]

Read the Admissions Guide resource for choosing a Postbac/SMP, but I agree that your fundamental study skills need uptooling before you go for the SMP or else you could hit "Game Over".

How to Choose a Postbaccalaureate or Special Masters Program (SMP) | SDN

Access free resources, expert advice, and tools to advance your medical career.

www.studentdoctor.net

yes, that makes sense! i suppose i’ll work the hardest i can this semester and see where i end up. additionally, i’ll finish up my coursework and take some upper level bio classes and see how i do in those before focusing on an smp/postbacc

 

[chilly_md]

I completely trust your judgement, but if you don't mind me asking: why not an SMP? I would just like some clarification. I'm assuming it's because of my poor track record. However, if the ADHD treatment works and I end up getting good grades, do you still believe a postbacc is the way to go?

Thank you!

Thank you!

With your life circumstances (and past ones you shared in another thread) and track record up to now, it’s not reasonable to think you’d suddenly do well in an SMP. It will likely be harder than what you’ve taken now. It also is rigid and would have a large course load. Even if the treatment helps with your ADHD, that is not a one to one fix for all the things causing you not to succeed

 

[Med Ed]

I would go to office hours, however, I never really felt like I had any questions to ask. I believe that's because I would never really read the textbook/engage with the content deeply enough to have questions.

So you have just now maybe figured out sort of how to study, and the effectiveness of your ADHD treatment is not entirely clear. If you went to medical school right now it would eat you alive. You are the exact type of person the Caribbean schools prey upon.

In my opinion the best thing you could do is finish your degree, get a job for a couple of years, and then come back to this. Frankly, it sounds like you could use some more time to mature and get a handle on your ADHD, and there is no substitute for time. Putting some distance between future you and your current academic performance would also help you make the case that you have truly reinvented yourself.

 

[coconutlovurr21]

So you have just now maybe figured out sort of how to study, and the effectiveness of your ADHD treatment is not entirely clear. If you went to medical school right now it would eat you alive. You are the exact type of person the Caribbean schools prey upon.

In my opinion the best thing you could do is finish your degree, get a job for a couple of years, and then come back to this. Frankly, it sounds like you could use some more time to mature and get a handle on your ADHD, and there is no substitute for time. Putting some distance between future you and your current academic performance would also help you make the case that you have truly reinvented yourself.

yes, i suppose you’re right. perhaps, going to school with a better approach to study and a more stable environment will be the best way to go about it

thank you!